Serial killer Round 69: HA! Err, I mean TENT OF TERROR! Game has ended.

[crimson5pheonix]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

 

[Twintix]

Gosh, it sure is FMA in this thread now...Not that I mind...

Is anybody up for a Big Al burger? Or perhaps some of Salty Joe's fries?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Fuck you!

Fuck you!

Fuck you!

Fuck you!

Fuck me!

God, people! Get a room why don't ya~!

*looks around*

This is a perfect room for this.

And if we die we all know it'll be your fault.

Pft! Not enough evidence. For all we know, you two could had died due to S&M play gone horribly wrong.

Maybe you joined it and it just went horribly right for you, you murderer.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

That fits in better with the first anime's theme of loss, redemption, nihilism, and horror. The first anime homonculi are more threatening because they can't just be beaten through effort, you have to have their weakness otherwise they're just unkillable. Envy is the best example of this. In Brotherhood he loses every fight he's in. He transforms into a giant monster at Roy and Roy just points out that it's not an advantage to do so. First anime Envy kills Ed because he spent 500 years learning things besides shape changing.

And let's not forget that Brotherhood ends with THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! #SailorMoon

 

[Demagogue]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Yes of course

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

That fits in better with the first anime's theme of loss, redemption, nihilism, and horror. The first anime homonculi are more threatening because they can't just be beaten through effort, you have to have their weakness otherwise they're just unkillable. Envy is the best example of this. In Brotherhood he loses every fight he's in. He transforms into a giant monster at Roy and Roy just points out that it's not an advantage to do so. First anime Envy kills Ed because he spent 500 years learning things besides shape changing.

And let's not forget that Brotherhood ends with THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! #SailorMoon

But they then get significantly weaker once you have it. And much like Voldemort they don't seem to go to far enough lengths to hide them. I'd still expect them to be harder to beat once you have their weakness.

And he doesn't get to die in 2003 because he runs off to Nazi Germany to get captured!

Power of friendship in that they're all fighting together. The enemy certainly seems more impressive if you have to bring a small army rather than let them get away in an elevator with their own minion.

And in the end Ed brings Al back by sacrificing his alchemy and not relying on it anymore. Some character growth there instead of Ed sending himself to Germany too to bring Al back after Al sacrifices himself.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

That fits in better with the first anime's theme of loss, redemption, nihilism, and horror. The first anime homonculi are more threatening because they can't just be beaten through effort, you have to have their weakness otherwise they're just unkillable. Envy is the best example of this. In Brotherhood he loses every fight he's in. He transforms into a giant monster at Roy and Roy just points out that it's not an advantage to do so. First anime Envy kills Ed because he spent 500 years learning things besides shape changing.

And let's not forget that Brotherhood ends with THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! #SailorMoon

But they then get significantly weaker once you have it. And much like Voldemort they don't seem to go to far enough lengths to hide them. I'd still expect them to be harder to beat once you have their weakness.

And he doesn't get to die in 2003 because he runs off to Nazi Germany to get captured!

Power of friendship in that they're all fighting together. The enemy certainly seems more impressive if you have to bring a small army rather than let them get away in an elevator with their own minion.

And in the end Ed brings Al back by sacrificing his alchemy and not relying on it anymore. Some character growth there instead of Ed sending himself to Germany too to bring Al back after Al sacrifices himself.

Sitting here thinking, I think I've finally found the most fundamental difference between them. Brotherhood is an eastern story, like most shonen anime, manga, and JRPGs. 2003 anime is a western story, specifically Gothic horror, more like Dracula or Frankenstein.

The most telling difference is how they treat the idea of God. In Brotherhood you can talk to God and he's a dick. The main villain tries to take God's power, succeeds, and the main character have to effectively fight God. The power of friendship part btw was about how Hoenheim befriended all the souls in him and used it to undo Father's circle that killed the country. Which fits right in with the eastern themes because one of the central tenants of the Church alchemy is that people stay dead. That particular transmutation flies right in the face of the alchemic dogma which is totally expected in an eastern story. Ed doesn't win until he rejects God.

In the first anime you can't talk to God. God is an inscrutable and intangible force exerting on the universe that can't be fought, bargained with, or talked to. It merely is. That's why only one person is ever brought back properly and it still cost a philosopher's stone and the alchemist doing it. Going against the laws of the universe is a monumental task and you still can never get what you truly want. That's why Dante and Hoenheim's plan doesn't really work. That's why Ed and Al never truly get back what they lost. Is it anticlimactic? Only if you expected to beat up the villain and get a happy ending. If you just want to see the outcome of everyone's actions, it's a great ending.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

That fits in better with the first anime's theme of loss, redemption, nihilism, and horror. The first anime homonculi are more threatening because they can't just be beaten through effort, you have to have their weakness otherwise they're just unkillable. Envy is the best example of this. In Brotherhood he loses every fight he's in. He transforms into a giant monster at Roy and Roy just points out that it's not an advantage to do so. First anime Envy kills Ed because he spent 500 years learning things besides shape changing.

And let's not forget that Brotherhood ends with THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! #SailorMoon

But they then get significantly weaker once you have it. And much like Voldemort they don't seem to go to far enough lengths to hide them. I'd still expect them to be harder to beat once you have their weakness.

And he doesn't get to die in 2003 because he runs off to Nazi Germany to get captured!

Power of friendship in that they're all fighting together. The enemy certainly seems more impressive if you have to bring a small army rather than let them get away in an elevator with their own minion.

And in the end Ed brings Al back by sacrificing his alchemy and not relying on it anymore. Some character growth there instead of Ed sending himself to Germany too to bring Al back after Al sacrifices himself.

Sitting here thinking, I think I've finally found the most fundamental difference between them. Brotherhood is an eastern story, like most shonen anime, manga, and JRPGs. 2003 anime is a western story, specifically Gothic horror, more like Dracula or Frankenstein.

The most telling difference is how they treat the idea of God. In Brotherhood you can talk to God and he's a dick. The main villain tries to take God's power, succeeds, and the main character have to effectively fight God. The power of friendship part btw was about how Hoenheim befriended all the souls in him and used it to undo Father's circle that killed the country. Which fits right in with the eastern themes because one of the central tenants of the Church alchemy is that people stay dead. That particular transmutation flies right in the face of the alchemic dogma which is totally expected in an eastern story. Ed doesn't win until he rejects God.

In the first anime you can't talk to God. God is an inscrutable and intangible force exerting on the universe that can't be fought, bargained with, or talked to. It merely is. That's why only one person is ever brought back properly and it still cost a philosopher's stone and the alchemist doing it. Going against the laws of the universe is a monumental task and you still can never get what you truly want. That's why Dante and Hoenheim's plan doesn't really work. That's why Ed and Al never truly get back what they lost. Is it anticlimactic? Only if you expected to beat up the villain and get a happy ending. If you just want to see the outcome of everyone's actions, it's a great ending.

That does seem like a fairly good analysis. The thing is about the 2003 one, it's not just that it'd not a happy ending, it's that it seems to come out of the blue. Last second introduction of something completely crazy that wasn't even hinted at before nor seemed to be possible by the rules of the world until that point. And you don't really see the outcome of Envy's actions in the anime itself, nor Hohenheim's. They just go offscreen. And Dante's death, while it does seem like a consequence of her actions, just seemed lame. It made her seem incompetent and weak as a villain. It made me think "This moron was in charge of them?"

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

That fits in better with the first anime's theme of loss, redemption, nihilism, and horror. The first anime homonculi are more threatening because they can't just be beaten through effort, you have to have their weakness otherwise they're just unkillable. Envy is the best example of this. In Brotherhood he loses every fight he's in. He transforms into a giant monster at Roy and Roy just points out that it's not an advantage to do so. First anime Envy kills Ed because he spent 500 years learning things besides shape changing.

And let's not forget that Brotherhood ends with THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! #SailorMoon

But they then get significantly weaker once you have it. And much like Voldemort they don't seem to go to far enough lengths to hide them. I'd still expect them to be harder to beat once you have their weakness.

And he doesn't get to die in 2003 because he runs off to Nazi Germany to get captured!

Power of friendship in that they're all fighting together. The enemy certainly seems more impressive if you have to bring a small army rather than let them get away in an elevator with their own minion.

And in the end Ed brings Al back by sacrificing his alchemy and not relying on it anymore. Some character growth there instead of Ed sending himself to Germany too to bring Al back after Al sacrifices himself.

Sitting here thinking, I think I've finally found the most fundamental difference between them. Brotherhood is an eastern story, like most shonen anime, manga, and JRPGs. 2003 anime is a western story, specifically Gothic horror, more like Dracula or Frankenstein.

The most telling difference is how they treat the idea of God. In Brotherhood you can talk to God and he's a dick. The main villain tries to take God's power, succeeds, and the main character have to effectively fight God. The power of friendship part btw was about how Hoenheim befriended all the souls in him and used it to undo Father's circle that killed the country. Which fits right in with the eastern themes because one of the central tenants of the Church alchemy is that people stay dead. That particular transmutation flies right in the face of the alchemic dogma which is totally expected in an eastern story. Ed doesn't win until he rejects God.

In the first anime you can't talk to God. God is an inscrutable and intangible force exerting on the universe that can't be fought, bargained with, or talked to. It merely is. That's why only one person is ever brought back properly and it still cost a philosopher's stone and the alchemist doing it. Going against the laws of the universe is a monumental task and you still can never get what you truly want. That's why Dante and Hoenheim's plan doesn't really work. That's why Ed and Al never truly get back what they lost. Is it anticlimactic? Only if you expected to beat up the villain and get a happy ending. If you just want to see the outcome of everyone's actions, it's a great ending.

That does seem like a fairly good analysis. The thing is about the 2003 one, it's not just that it'd not a happy ending, it's that it seems to come out of the blue. Last second introduction of something completely crazy that wasn't even hinted at before nor seemed to be possible by the rules of the world until that point. And you don't really see the outcome of Envy's actions in the anime itself, nor Hohenheim's. They just go offscreen. And Dante's death, while it does seem like a consequence of her actions, just seemed lame. It made her seem incompetent and weak as a villain. It made me think "This moron was in charge of them?"

We'd seen Ed cross over before, it's not far fetched. Envy's not really, but Hoenheim basically becomes Churchill iirc, we know how that goes. Not to mention Dante had become unstable because she couldn't accept her own mortality and probably had never had anyone get this far before. Her quick thinking got her killed. All it takes is one moment of incompetence, fitting right into the theme of the anime. It's basically what happens to everyone, long stretches of everything working until a single fuck up. Ed and Al? Prodigies until they try to bring back their mom. Sloth, Lust, and Pride? Kicking ass until someone else dicks them over ACCIDENTALLY. Same thing with Dante, she was successful for hundreds of years, then fucked up once and died.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

That fits in better with the first anime's theme of loss, redemption, nihilism, and horror. The first anime homonculi are more threatening because they can't just be beaten through effort, you have to have their weakness otherwise they're just unkillable. Envy is the best example of this. In Brotherhood he loses every fight he's in. He transforms into a giant monster at Roy and Roy just points out that it's not an advantage to do so. First anime Envy kills Ed because he spent 500 years learning things besides shape changing.

And let's not forget that Brotherhood ends with THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! #SailorMoon

But they then get significantly weaker once you have it. And much like Voldemort they don't seem to go to far enough lengths to hide them. I'd still expect them to be harder to beat once you have their weakness.

And he doesn't get to die in 2003 because he runs off to Nazi Germany to get captured!

Power of friendship in that they're all fighting together. The enemy certainly seems more impressive if you have to bring a small army rather than let them get away in an elevator with their own minion.

And in the end Ed brings Al back by sacrificing his alchemy and not relying on it anymore. Some character growth there instead of Ed sending himself to Germany too to bring Al back after Al sacrifices himself.

Sitting here thinking, I think I've finally found the most fundamental difference between them. Brotherhood is an eastern story, like most shonen anime, manga, and JRPGs. 2003 anime is a western story, specifically Gothic horror, more like Dracula or Frankenstein.

The most telling difference is how they treat the idea of God. In Brotherhood you can talk to God and he's a dick. The main villain tries to take God's power, succeeds, and the main character have to effectively fight God. The power of friendship part btw was about how Hoenheim befriended all the souls in him and used it to undo Father's circle that killed the country. Which fits right in with the eastern themes because one of the central tenants of the Church alchemy is that people stay dead. That particular transmutation flies right in the face of the alchemic dogma which is totally expected in an eastern story. Ed doesn't win until he rejects God.

In the first anime you can't talk to God. God is an inscrutable and intangible force exerting on the universe that can't be fought, bargained with, or talked to. It merely is. That's why only one person is ever brought back properly and it still cost a philosopher's stone and the alchemist doing it. Going against the laws of the universe is a monumental task and you still can never get what you truly want. That's why Dante and Hoenheim's plan doesn't really work. That's why Ed and Al never truly get back what they lost. Is it anticlimactic? Only if you expected to beat up the villain and get a happy ending. If you just want to see the outcome of everyone's actions, it's a great ending.

That does seem like a fairly good analysis. The thing is about the 2003 one, it's not just that it'd not a happy ending, it's that it seems to come out of the blue. Last second introduction of something completely crazy that wasn't even hinted at before nor seemed to be possible by the rules of the world until that point. And you don't really see the outcome of Envy's actions in the anime itself, nor Hohenheim's. They just go offscreen. And Dante's death, while it does seem like a consequence of her actions, just seemed lame. It made her seem incompetent and weak as a villain. It made me think "This moron was in charge of them?"

We'd seen Ed cross over before, it's not far fetched. Envy's not really, but Hoenheim basically becomes Churchill iirc, we know how that goes. Not to mention Dante had become unstable because she couldn't accept her own mortality and probably had never had anyone get this far before. Her quick thinking got her killed. All it takes is one moment of incompetence, fitting right into the theme of the anime. It's basically what happens to everyone, long stretches of everything working until a single fuck up. Ed and Al? Prodigies until they try to bring back their mom. Sloth, Lust, and Pride? Kicking ass until someone else dicks them over ACCIDENTALLY. Same thing with Dante, she was successful for hundreds of years, then fucked up once and died.

It's been a long time, when did we see him cross over before? Not just into the weird white place but to somewhere else?

Also, Hoenheim becomes Envy's chew toy by the movie. I don't think he did much else there but I could be wrong.

Sure one fuck up can mean the end, but when it's your own guy just biting your head off in an elevator as you escape you kind of come off as incompetent. You lose respect for her as the villain, or at least I did.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

That fits in better with the first anime's theme of loss, redemption, nihilism, and horror. The first anime homonculi are more threatening because they can't just be beaten through effort, you have to have their weakness otherwise they're just unkillable. Envy is the best example of this. In Brotherhood he loses every fight he's in. He transforms into a giant monster at Roy and Roy just points out that it's not an advantage to do so. First anime Envy kills Ed because he spent 500 years learning things besides shape changing.

And let's not forget that Brotherhood ends with THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! #SailorMoon

But they then get significantly weaker once you have it. And much like Voldemort they don't seem to go to far enough lengths to hide them. I'd still expect them to be harder to beat once you have their weakness.

And he doesn't get to die in 2003 because he runs off to Nazi Germany to get captured!

Power of friendship in that they're all fighting together. The enemy certainly seems more impressive if you have to bring a small army rather than let them get away in an elevator with their own minion.

And in the end Ed brings Al back by sacrificing his alchemy and not relying on it anymore. Some character growth there instead of Ed sending himself to Germany too to bring Al back after Al sacrifices himself.

Sitting here thinking, I think I've finally found the most fundamental difference between them. Brotherhood is an eastern story, like most shonen anime, manga, and JRPGs. 2003 anime is a western story, specifically Gothic horror, more like Dracula or Frankenstein.

The most telling difference is how they treat the idea of God. In Brotherhood you can talk to God and he's a dick. The main villain tries to take God's power, succeeds, and the main character have to effectively fight God. The power of friendship part btw was about how Hoenheim befriended all the souls in him and used it to undo Father's circle that killed the country. Which fits right in with the eastern themes because one of the central tenants of the Church alchemy is that people stay dead. That particular transmutation flies right in the face of the alchemic dogma which is totally expected in an eastern story. Ed doesn't win until he rejects God.

In the first anime you can't talk to God. God is an inscrutable and intangible force exerting on the universe that can't be fought, bargained with, or talked to. It merely is. That's why only one person is ever brought back properly and it still cost a philosopher's stone and the alchemist doing it. Going against the laws of the universe is a monumental task and you still can never get what you truly want. That's why Dante and Hoenheim's plan doesn't really work. That's why Ed and Al never truly get back what they lost. Is it anticlimactic? Only if you expected to beat up the villain and get a happy ending. If you just want to see the outcome of everyone's actions, it's a great ending.

That does seem like a fairly good analysis. The thing is about the 2003 one, it's not just that it'd not a happy ending, it's that it seems to come out of the blue. Last second introduction of something completely crazy that wasn't even hinted at before nor seemed to be possible by the rules of the world until that point. And you don't really see the outcome of Envy's actions in the anime itself, nor Hohenheim's. They just go offscreen. And Dante's death, while it does seem like a consequence of her actions, just seemed lame. It made her seem incompetent and weak as a villain. It made me think "This moron was in charge of them?"

We'd seen Ed cross over before, it's not far fetched. Envy's not really, but Hoenheim basically becomes Churchill iirc, we know how that goes. Not to mention Dante had become unstable because she couldn't accept her own mortality and probably had never had anyone get this far before. Her quick thinking got her killed. All it takes is one moment of incompetence, fitting right into the theme of the anime. It's basically what happens to everyone, long stretches of everything working until a single fuck up. Ed and Al? Prodigies until they try to bring back their mom. Sloth, Lust, and Pride? Kicking ass until someone else dicks them over ACCIDENTALLY. Same thing with Dante, she was successful for hundreds of years, then fucked up once and died.

It's been a long time, when did we see him cross over before? Not just into the weird white place but to somewhere else?

Also, Hoenheim becomes Envy's chew toy by the movie. I don't think he did much else there but I could be wrong.

Sure one fuck up can mean the end, but when it's your own guy just biting your head off in an elevator as you escape you kind of come off as incompetent. You lose respect for her as the villain, or at least I did.

Dante sends him to England and he ends up in the body of a kid until a zeppelin falls on him. When he performs the transmutation he brings his whole body over instead of just his soul.

While he was over there, he found Hoenheim who got sent earlier and people were calling him Churchill. Of course, Envy going over as a serpent probably changed a few things...

It's supposed to come off like that. Rather than being a villain who did EVERYTHING RIGHT, HOW COULD YOU HAVE STOPPED ME, I WAS PERFECT! (#PowerOfFriendship), she was a clever schemer trying to go against her fate and dealing with forces that could rek her if she's not careful. She forgot to look both way before crossing the street. That's typically how people die in these kind of stories. It's not common that you have a final climactic duel. Dracula gets killed because he was sleeping when the heroes show up and they hack off his head. Dante hastily threw a solution together and it bit her in the ass.

 

[Aerosteam]

*FMA discussion happening*

*First person dies*

*FMA discussion continues*

 

[crimson5pheonix]

*FMA discussion happening*

*First person dies*

*FMA discussion continues*

THIS IS A LIFE OR DEATH DISCUSSION HERE!

Also, did someone die? I didn't notice.

 

[Aerosteam]

@crimson: No, just saying the focus of the thread at the moment will likely cause some people to not notice that someone has died.

Spoiler

 

[kingofkumquats]

*FMA discussion happening*

*First person dies*

*FMA discussion continues*

THIS IS A LIFE OR DEATH DISCUSSION HERE!

Also, did someone die? I didn't notice.

I don't think so. Not yet anyway. All the important people are doing all their things right now, as far as I can tell.

EDIT: Well, this is awkard. I can't think of anything different to say, so now you get the answer twice.

 

[Demagogue]

You know... I'm not even sorry this turned into an FMA discussion...

 

[Dr. Crawver]

Well, here's me not ever having watched FMA. I'm just going to sit in a corner and wail to myself.

 

[BeerTent]

Well then, I guess I will say, publicly, that my suspicions of who the Killer is lies with Dr Crawver, EvilRoy, and Jux.


I would also like to say that I don't at all fit with this theme. Now, if it were a medieval court I'd feel right at home.

Well jesters are like clowns! And clowns belong. They're also often murderers.

I'll have you know that I find that to be quite offensive. Clown are nothing but the most pathetic has-beens, two-bits, or other such wannabe jesters that couldn't even manage to scrape their way into being at the bottom of the barrel.

Well this circus went for quality and got a jester. But being on a budget they got a dying one.

I have no idea what the hell FMA is or what's going on, but god damn that's one sick burn.

As GM, I can request a rebuttal, however, as GM I'm required to inform you that one is not necessary.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

This is clear discrimination against people who openly admit being evil. May I remind the court that sloth, greed, and lust are all evils that may be committed without the aid of murder (but bonus points if you do).

Also Pride, Gluttony, and Envy... really the only sin that 'should' always involve murder is wrath.

Annnnd.... now I want to watch FMA again... dammit! two games in a row! I resisted last time, lets see if I can do it again. (mainly because I couldn't find the old one on Netflix only Brotherhood)

You mean the GOOD FMA, correct?

Aka Brotherhood

Aka SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH! First FMA anime best FMA anime.

Pride and Wrath in Brotherhood >>>>>>>>>>>> Pride and Wrath in the first one

First anime wrath is a perfect example of a Brotherhood homonculus. He's objectively the strongest homonculus and he doesn't have a weakness. He gets his shit wrecked because he's too dumb to breathe and the other homonculi beat him up and take his lunch money because they have brains.

Meanwhile, the Brotherhood homonculi get tricked and make stupid mistakes constantly. Because they're stupid. Thus they are less threatening than the supposedly weaker 2003 homonculi.

Too dumb to breathe is terrible for a villain. Pride from Brotherhood is far more menacing.

And the 2003 homunculi don't seem any more threatening. Compare Bradley to Bradley. One kills a tank with a sword and fights off several people, only losing due to relentless attacks and a bit of poor luck at the end. The other dies to a skull in a box.

And then there's the movie that have us the resolution for 2003. That was unforgivable

Correction, TEH T0T411Y 1337 DUAL WIELDING BADASS loses to a warrior monk for reasons. The smart one walks into a "trap" by one of the best alchemists because Bradley knows it won't work out for Roy since he understands how Roy's alchemy works. He has to be dicked over by the universe.

One can be beat in a straight fist fight because he's too dumb to do anything else, the other would win against anyone in a duel because he doesn't play games.

There's no sense of threat because Brotherhood heroes are kung-fu wizards who may or may not have 100 gallons of blood and unbreakable bones. First anime heroes are action scientists who fight and die like humans. So the first anime homonculi don't have to fight tanks to seem threatening, they just have to use their brains a bit and push their advantages. So the first anime homonculi have to be both outthunk AND have to be dicked over by the universe. Brotherhood homonculi usually just lose in a fight that they have little excuse for losing.

It's not every exciting if he only loses because his kid brought him a skull in a box though. I may be forgetting something but that means Roy essentially won by sheer luck without any kind of other effort. Like, anyone just had to be alive in there when the box arrived.

Also the big boss of 2003 got eaten by Gluttony. That's just not a good way to go.

Sure it took more special things to kill them in 2003, but they weren't always really exciting in any way. A piece of hair or a skull. 3 of them surviving into the awful movie to die there. Once you had the key to killing them they didn't seem all that great.

And the ending... Ending up in our world?! Just out of nowhere.

That fits in better with the first anime's theme of loss, redemption, nihilism, and horror. The first anime homonculi are more threatening because they can't just be beaten through effort, you have to have their weakness otherwise they're just unkillable. Envy is the best example of this. In Brotherhood he loses every fight he's in. He transforms into a giant monster at Roy and Roy just points out that it's not an advantage to do so. First anime Envy kills Ed because he spent 500 years learning things besides shape changing.

And let's not forget that Brotherhood ends with THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP! #SailorMoon

But they then get significantly weaker once you have it. And much like Voldemort they don't seem to go to far enough lengths to hide them. I'd still expect them to be harder to beat once you have their weakness.

And he doesn't get to die in 2003 because he runs off to Nazi Germany to get captured!

Power of friendship in that they're all fighting together. The enemy certainly seems more impressive if you have to bring a small army rather than let them get away in an elevator with their own minion.

And in the end Ed brings Al back by sacrificing his alchemy and not relying on it anymore. Some character growth there instead of Ed sending himself to Germany too to bring Al back after Al sacrifices himself.

Sitting here thinking, I think I've finally found the most fundamental difference between them. Brotherhood is an eastern story, like most shonen anime, manga, and JRPGs. 2003 anime is a western story, specifically Gothic horror, more like Dracula or Frankenstein.

The most telling difference is how they treat the idea of God. In Brotherhood you can talk to God and he's a dick. The main villain tries to take God's power, succeeds, and the main character have to effectively fight God. The power of friendship part btw was about how Hoenheim befriended all the souls in him and used it to undo Father's circle that killed the country. Which fits right in with the eastern themes because one of the central tenants of the Church alchemy is that people stay dead. That particular transmutation flies right in the face of the alchemic dogma which is totally expected in an eastern story. Ed doesn't win until he rejects God.

In the first anime you can't talk to God. God is an inscrutable and intangible force exerting on the universe that can't be fought, bargained with, or talked to. It merely is. That's why only one person is ever brought back properly and it still cost a philosopher's stone and the alchemist doing it. Going against the laws of the universe is a monumental task and you still can never get what you truly want. That's why Dante and Hoenheim's plan doesn't really work. That's why Ed and Al never truly get back what they lost. Is it anticlimactic? Only if you expected to beat up the villain and get a happy ending. If you just want to see the outcome of everyone's actions, it's a great ending.

That does seem like a fairly good analysis. The thing is about the 2003 one, it's not just that it'd not a happy ending, it's that it seems to come out of the blue. Last second introduction of something completely crazy that wasn't even hinted at before nor seemed to be possible by the rules of the world until that point. And you don't really see the outcome of Envy's actions in the anime itself, nor Hohenheim's. They just go offscreen. And Dante's death, while it does seem like a consequence of her actions, just seemed lame. It made her seem incompetent and weak as a villain. It made me think "This moron was in charge of them?"

We'd seen Ed cross over before, it's not far fetched. Envy's not really, but Hoenheim basically becomes Churchill iirc, we know how that goes. Not to mention Dante had become unstable because she couldn't accept her own mortality and probably had never had anyone get this far before. Her quick thinking got her killed. All it takes is one moment of incompetence, fitting right into the theme of the anime. It's basically what happens to everyone, long stretches of everything working until a single fuck up. Ed and Al? Prodigies until they try to bring back their mom. Sloth, Lust, and Pride? Kicking ass until someone else dicks them over ACCIDENTALLY. Same thing with Dante, she was successful for hundreds of years, then fucked up once and died.

It's been a long time, when did we see him cross over before? Not just into the weird white place but to somewhere else?

Also, Hoenheim becomes Envy's chew toy by the movie. I don't think he did much else there but I could be wrong.

Sure one fuck up can mean the end, but when it's your own guy just biting your head off in an elevator as you escape you kind of come off as incompetent. You lose respect for her as the villain, or at least I did.

Dante sends him to England and he ends up in the body of a kid until a zeppelin falls on him. When he performs the transmutation he brings his whole body over instead of just his soul.

While he was over there, he found Hoenheim who got sent earlier and people were calling him Churchill. Of course, Envy going over as a serpent probably changed a few things...

It's supposed to come off like that. Rather than being a villain who did EVERYTHING RIGHT, HOW COULD YOU HAVE STOPPED ME, I WAS PERFECT! (#PowerOfFriendship), she was a clever schemer trying to go against her fate and dealing with forces that could rek her if she's not careful. She forgot to look both way before crossing the street. That's typically how people die in these kind of stories. It's not common that you have a final climactic duel. Dracula gets killed because he was sleeping when the heroes show up and they hack off his head. Dante hastily threw a solution together and it bit her in the ass.

Ah yes, right. But I meant before in the series. That's still like the last 2 episodes. Nothing hinted at this very bizarre revelation.

Double checked and apparently he was an advisor to Churchill. Which I suppose seems like a decent ending for him barring the movie. Not quite what I'd call him dealing with the consequences of his actions though.

I'm not saying it had to be a duel, I just think it should be something that doesn't make it harder to take the villain seriously. There are ways for villains to die by their own flaws while not seeming like a moron doing it. For instance Dracula's is due to his weaknesses as a vampire there.