Serious question for feminist critique of video games

[FalloutJack]

"DO something!", basically.

Well, speaking on the Sarky side of things, she doesn't seem to want to DO anything but stir the pot. No solutions, no real plans, just annoy one side and anger the other. THAT'S IT. It leads to nowhere and she actually thinks she's helping.

That said, other people who think for a sec could be trying to make some sort of difference. Unfortunately, T&A is going to sell. There's just too much market, but you can wedge into the market with your own field, this is true. There's always room for an alternative view. However, I should point out that while there are feminists who are against the objectification of women and being seen as someone who's nothing but good eye candy, it is also true that there are plenty of women who ARE this. There are women who like to look sexy as hell and benefit from it, as well. Stereotypes come from examples that are true in life. The point of rallying against them is to explain that not everyone is the stereotype, but you still have to accept that some ARE it and are fine with it. The door swings both ways.

Hmmm, this gives me an idea for a thread.

 

[Phasmal]

3: Most male (in my experience - this is emperic evidence, I admit) dont bother showing their gender at all. Why would you want to show your gender if it isnt relevant. It would be like me writing in my profile that I wear a purple shirt and like that people wouldnt care and the few who would care, would probably give me flac for it. that is not an excuse though and this needs to be adressed but the way to adress it is not by having these talks because they are dominated by young people who are still out to test the social borders. It is not an excuse on their part but it is an explanation and unfortunately not something easily dealt with. Feminism in gaming (or at all) wont fix it though.

Are you serious?
Most guys who play games online do not ever mention they are male?
They actively avoid using voice to not show their gender and never call anyone else `he` automatically?
It's `guy unless otherwise stated and even then probably still a guy` on online games and everybody knows it.
Lets not play sillybuggers.

EDIT: Also `I'm not running for politcal office but I vote` is exactly the same as `I'm not making games but I play them`. We still expect to have our viewpoints respected, eh?
I think some people are just too used to the status quo. When you get out of the gaming echo chamber... it looks weird.

 

[WenisPagon]

"DO something!", basically.

Well, speaking on the Sarky side of things, she doesn't seem to want to DO anything but stir the pot. No solutions, no real plans, just annoy one side and anger the other. THAT'S IT. It leads to nowhere and she actually thinks she's helping.

That said, other people who think for a sec could be trying to make some sort of difference. Unfortunately, T&A is going to sell. There's just too much market, but you can wedge into the market with your own field, this is true. There's always room for an alternative view. However, I should point out that while there are feminists who are against the objectification of women and being seen as someone who's nothing but good eye candy, it is also true that there are plenty of women who ARE this. There are women who like to look sexy as hell and benefit from it, as well. Stereotypes come from examples that are true in life. The point of rallying against them is to explain that not everyone is the stereotype, but you still have to accept that some ARE it and are fine with it. The door swings both ways.

Hmmm, this gives me an idea for a thread.

Anita has collaborated with DICE. She is DOING something, regardless of your opinion of it.

 

[FalloutJack]

Anita has collaborated with DICE. She is DOING something, regardless of your opinion of it.

Well, you seem to be on the hub of it. What's she doing?

 

[WenisPagon]

Anita has collaborated with DICE. She is DOING something, regardless of your opinion of it.

Well, you seem to be on the hub of it. What's she doing?

Last I heard she was essentially a consultant for Mirror's Edge 2.

I know for a fact that she was asked to speak at Bungie but oddly I'm only getting second-hand shit for her involvement with EA, so I'm starting to question whether it's actually true or was a "woman wreckin our gams" sensationalist rumor from places like /v/.

 

[FalloutJack]

Anita has collaborated with DICE. She is DOING something, regardless of your opinion of it.

Well, you seem to be on the hub of it. What's she doing?

Last I heard she was essentially a consultant for Mirror's Edge 2.

I know for a fact that she was asked to speak at Bungie but oddly I'm only getting second-hand shit for her involvement with EA, so I'm starting to question whether it's actually true or was a "woman wreckin our gams" sensationalist rumor from places like /v/.

Funny, I wouldn't think the Mirror's Edge franchise needed help. Plenty of people lined up to buy a sequel and Faith is an ass-kicker.

 

[TakeyB0y2]

Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women?

I haven't seen anyone argue against this spot so I will.

Answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Just because she wants women in games to have agency doesn't mean it has to be taken away from men. She wants BOTH men and women in video games to have agency.

 

[josak]

This is ridiculous, one doesn't have to make a career in the army to criticize the massive sexual abuse within it, or become a pro athlete to tackle homophobia in sports. Critique and discussion are the most important pats of progress.

Also your claim that: "If she truly believes what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales." is also patently ridiculous something being true doesn't mean people want to hear it, when anti-slavery booklets first became available they were not very popular in the Antebellum South but they were right and in the same way there is no guarantee that making a strong female role in gaming would make a game successful (games are based on gameplay after all) and might even hinder it when being sold to an audience that has a tragically large sexist component.

 

[josak]

Amen. Giving women agency doesn't mean taking agency from men, this is not a zero sum game. At all.

 

[Abomination]

I personally like to consider this a quasi-delayed rule 34 type scenario. Not in the whole porn thing, but because there's a market there that nobody has got to yet. Maybe there is a AAA market for feminist games and no designer has taken the risk yet... I guess that's what Kickstarter is for.

Somebody will eventually do something about this.

So I guess rather than telling critics of the present non-feminist AAA industry to go make their own games they should be told to Kickstart any feminist games they can find and "put their money where their mouth is".

I?m a stern believer in market forces, especially in the digital media space where the access to consumers is just so vast with minimal distribution expenses, that if there is a market ? as feminists claim ? it will eventually surface.

If it hasn?t surfaced in 10 years I guess we can say they really need to stop demanding AAA publishers cater to their niche demands.

 

[Risingblade]

Indie games exist, gotta start somewhere don't ya?

 

[WenisPagon]

I think Gone Home, for one, is a solid example of what can be done in this regard.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Her way of putting it was "we don't have a monkey see monkey do relationship with media", that it has a very "subtle and complicated" effect on cultural thinking, etc. She has to avoid flat-out saying it, but at the same time she has to make her video seem relevant to real life....otherwise all her videos can simply be countered with "And?" or "So what?" or "Who gives a shit, it's fiction". I think in one of her videos she said that showing brutalized women in games was irresponsible of developers because of how often women get brutalized IRL, i.e. she attempted to tie videogame violence to IRL violence.

Ah, I remember where she brought that up. She was referring to this effect:


Games and other forms of media do have subtle effects on our perspectives; to claim otherwise is to fly in the face of all sorts of marketing research and analysis.

The problem I have with this is that no one accepts that violent games create violence, yet everyone seems fine with the idea that sexist games create sexism. It's almost like the person who is making the argument determines it's validity, rather than the argument itself...

The difference is that there is not a "culture" of violence in real life, whereas there is an actual culture of bigotry in the world that video games sometimes (usually inadvertently!) feed off of.

As an example, the wave of brown military shooters introduced Muslim-themed insults to the general XBox Live community, where clever witticisms like "turban-headed ******" remain popular.

You don't think someone getting gunned down in the middle of the street because of a turf war doesn't indicate a culture of violence? Or that a world where serial killers exist doesn't mean with have a culture of violence?

 

[WenisPagon]

Her way of putting it was "we don't have a monkey see monkey do relationship with media", that it has a very "subtle and complicated" effect on cultural thinking, etc. She has to avoid flat-out saying it, but at the same time she has to make her video seem relevant to real life....otherwise all her videos can simply be countered with "And?" or "So what?" or "Who gives a shit, it's fiction". I think in one of her videos she said that showing brutalized women in games was irresponsible of developers because of how often women get brutalized IRL, i.e. she attempted to tie videogame violence to IRL violence.

Ah, I remember where she brought that up. She was referring to this effect:


Games and other forms of media do have subtle effects on our perspectives; to claim otherwise is to fly in the face of all sorts of marketing research and analysis.

The problem I have with this is that no one accepts that violent games create violence, yet everyone seems fine with the idea that sexist games create sexism. It's almost like the person who is making the argument determines it's validity, rather than the argument itself...

The difference is that there is not a "culture" of violence in real life, whereas there is an actual culture of bigotry in the world that video games sometimes (usually inadvertently!) feed off of.

As an example, the wave of brown military shooters introduced Muslim-themed insults to the general XBox Live community, where clever witticisms like "turban-headed ******" remain popular.

You don't think someone getting gunned down in the middle of the street because of a turf war doesn't indicate a culture of violence? Or that a world where serial killers exist doesn't mean with have a culture of violence?

Let me put it this way: is it culturally acceptable to shoot an individual in front of you without having justified the shooting by drawing upon the tenets of a construct like religion beforehand?

A "culture" does not simply imply that something happens, but also that it is seen as normal or acceptable. Violence happens, but it is not considered acceptable unless specifically justified.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Let me put it this way: is it culturally acceptable to shoot an individual in front of you without having justified the shooting by drawing upon the tenets of a construct like religion beforehand?

Is it culturally acceptable to beat a woman without having justified it by drawing upon the tenets of a construct like religion beforehand? For that matter, do you even live in a society that thinks that act is justified at all?

A "culture" does not simply imply that something happens, but also that it is seen as normal or acceptable. Violence happens, but it is not considered acceptable unless specifically justified.

Neither is sexism.

 

[TekMoney]

A "culture" does not simply imply that something happens, but also that it is seen as normal or acceptable. Violence happens, but it is not considered acceptable unless specifically justified.

Neither is sexism.

Please provide an example of justified sexism.

 

[Vegosiux]

A "culture" does not simply imply that something happens, but also that it is seen as normal or acceptable. Violence happens, but it is not considered acceptable unless specifically justified.

Neither is sexism.

Please provide an example of justified sexism.

Addressing men as "sir" and women as "ma'am". Different treatment on the basis of gender, which is the textbook definition of sexism, yet completely benign and justified.

 

[TekMoney]

A "culture" does not simply imply that something happens, but also that it is seen as normal or acceptable. Violence happens, but it is not considered acceptable unless specifically justified.

Neither is sexism.

Please provide an example of justified sexism.

Addressing men as "sir" and women as "ma'am". Different treatment on the basis of gender, which is the textbook definition of sexism, yet completely benign and justified.

Yeah that's not what sexism is. Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on gender.