Sexism; Or The Turning of Tables

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

If i met you in person i would be too tempted to troll you based on the fact of how nit picky you are over the most self pitying things to have come through this last decade or two, which is probably why you hear the "sandwich" joke more often than not.

I actually didn't write that list a man did.

I am kind of bored of repeating myself now. Its hilarious how people are focusing on proving me wrong rather than the OP...

Kind of proves my point in the end doesn't it.

...did i say you wrote that list?

and once again, did you not prove my point of woman saying "i dont understand"? you disregarded most of what i said to the side like it had little hold at all.

and proving you wrong? i wasn't trying to prove you wrong, i was pointing out the flaws and extreme subjectiveness of that list you put out there, most of those were extremely out dated, and could be proven as a point for men just as much as it were for women if a few words were swapped out here and there.

 

[Death God]

It is starting to become the same with both males and females. Females are supposed to be "delicate" and "busy with house work" while still looking good; on the other hand, males are supposed to be "tough, gruff, and rough" and not supposed to have a sensitive side. True, females have the shorter-end-of-the-stick still but males are now starting to tip over to that as well.

 

[Talshere]

snip

None taken at all. I relish the argument We should always have our views challenged, otherwise we never grow.


1: You suggest that employers should just offer, without prompt, pay increases to women in order to keep it balanced? Or that if a male asks for a raise, all people (cos it would have to be all people to keep it fair) people within the same broad job description also get a raise? This is the only other solution other than "women need to ask" and/or simply making a law preventing pay rises because women wont ask.....Wait, that's discrimination. Women wont ask so you punish men. That's the definition of discrimination. Social problem. Maybe. But fact remains only women can fix it. 2 of the other options are inherently discriminatory against men while the other is simply a crap business model.

2: I think the stigma of being abused is bad enough for both sexes, even if we take the female standard as universal. Quite often these people do not want attention. Do not want sympathy or pity and often still care for or love their spouse, or remain battered to protect the kids from a breakup (assuming they are not also being abused, but that's a different story). Sadly, the first of these 2 they usually get unconditionally and the 3rd they are ridiculed over (or in the case of protecting the kids even more pity).

These things are true for both sexes. But there is an acceptance at least that women do get beaten. Youve read this thread. How many people responded to "Women get beaten" with something other than "ok, but", rather than "men do too". They don't accept that it even happens. Then you expect people to come forward into this? Ok, yeah these people could come forward themselves, but friends, family, colleagues look out for women who get beaten. Courses are run to help social works identify the visible symptoms, so they can be helped WITHOUT making a big scene. This help simply does not exist for men because SOCIETY does not accept that it even happens! This is the big key deference between the two and the issue described in #1.

4: I have before now been walked off an estate by my friends of an evening, despite have walked there alone, because I was not from the estate and therefore was quite likely to be attacked if I was not with him. Granted this was kinda a rough area. Fact is though that noone makes you walk your lady friend home other than your own personal misgivings. I admit, I have done the same. But we chose to do it. Statistically, 16-21 year old white males are the most likely to be attacked on the street, yet people dont think twice to letting them walk home alone. If anything, this is proof that we fail to protect the young white males in our community's and so is actually discriminating against males. Make of that what you will.

7: You perhaps have a point if the date was 1985. Or maybe even 1992. But these days that is simply erroneous. So many people spend 10-15+ years without getting married, even having kids and living together that they may as well be married.

You have a point in "sub-social-consciously associated with weakness and subservience" however it is not seen as "wrong" any long to fail to adhire to this stima as a woman, indeed some men would never dream of talking a partner who could not be defined as "strong" however if you willing become the "sub-social-consciously weak and subservient" this is a choice you make. Quite simply some people are happy like this. The issue then arises that men are socially not ALLOWED to make this choice.


Just on this last point a fact for you I know and posted earlier in this thread

Ive been reading some people "counter lists" and just thought of an interesting fact I know. "The list" generally suggests that women are more subservient in the relationship. Recent studies suggest there there is a very VERY strong trend that the most dominant member of the relationship publicly, will be more subservient in private, and this goes doubly so for the bedroom

Just because someone "seems" subservient, doesn't mean its true.

 

[Joshimodo]

But women cant have certain types of jobs? Its utter bull.

So women can work on the front line or in the special forces? Even though it's been proven they can pass the training? Don't think so. Women find it difficult to break into certain job areas becuase society pushes them towards certain careers. It is getting better with science being promoted to girls for example but you still don't see many women in those professions.

Of course this thread only touches on Europe and the US, I would feel nervous as a woman to travel outside those areas while a man can pretty much go anywhere and still be treated the same by normal society.

Women are hardly taking over the world as the OP claims.

Way to completely take my post out of context there. Taking over the world? What?

I never mentioned this being some kind of female uprising, taking our manhood and crushing it to a fine powder. What I posted was about how male sexism is on the rise and that nobody seems to care.

As for career issues, that's also a moot point. Physical differences make active military acceptance difficult. Society pushes men towards certain careers too, and even ridicules them should they choose one outside of the norm. For example, a woman applying for a typically male job such as an engineer would be encouraged, whereas a man applying to be a hairdresser would be the butt of many jokes. Swings both ways. Anyone who says otherwise has never had a job.

 

[thiosk]

An uppermiddle class white american male myself, I can say without reservation that we have never had it rougher.

 

[infinity_turtles]

Well in comparison to 'we get made fun of in adverts'

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Spoiler: The male privilege checklist response

3. I've lost promotions due to my sex. very blatantly so. I had a female boss who publicly said she'd never promote a man because we were sexist scum blah blah blah all men are pigs blah blah. I was one of three guys working under her on a staff of around forty I think. I spent pretty much all my time fixing the fuck-ups of my co-workers, having to work unpaid overtime to do so, and eventually quit after being berated for thousandth time for somehow being responsible for one of the obviously perfect female employees.

4. Ah, but my gender was most certainly blamed for my co-workers fuck-ups. So much better.

5. While my boss certainly didn't do this, with a mostly female staff, I was in fact treated as a piece of eye candy. Which is annoying as fuck when you're trying to get work done.

6. See above.

7. Male rape being unreported, you're downplaying prison rape, and statistics on female rape tend to include any case someone has reported it, even if it's racanted by later. False reports happen.

8. Instead I've been taught never to be alone with a female I don't know VERY well if there's not a recording device present, because if she accuses me of rape my life is fucked.

9. Instead you get called immature for not growing up and settling down.

10. Primary care is typically a medical term, as far as I'm familiar with. I'll assume you mean an active role in early stages of parenting, in which case you're called a poor fucking father to anyone who realizes it. It's just not something as closely looked at, assuming the father is also working.

11. Most praise men receive for this is belittling and isolating. It's almost always treated as weird and awkward, as if he's stepping outside of his role and a woman should be the one doing it. Which is pretty discouraging for a father who wants to help guide his child's early development.

12. No, a lot of people think this. Especially the children, who's opinion on this matters most. If the mother is doing this, the kids will be told to be proud of having such a strong woman as a mother.

14. I fail to see how this is some privilege for my gender, especially beyond the idea that men have an easier time getting the positions. On pretty much any issue of gender, male politicians support the same things as female politicians.

15. Unless most cases of male higher-ups berate you for your sex, which I can about a quarter the women I've met under the circumstance have done, I don't see the issue with this, aside from men possibly having an easier time getting those positions.

16. This is a difference, sure, but I think it's the opposite of a privilege. We're encouraged to be something, and if we're not we're treated as if there's something wrong with us. My step-sister is started off failrly inactive, and then ended up as a bit of a tomboy. She wasn't derided at any of these points.

17. You can find them sure, but how often are they portrayed as something you want to be? The action-hero esque guy is shoved down our throat as the ideal male.

18. I have no idea of statistics supporting this, but my experience is the opposite. My school shoved girls who were clearly not smart enough for it into the advanced classes to have it be more gender even, and the girls got plenty of attention.

19. If your life is going badly, regardless of gender, you really shouldn't need to ask this. It's sort of self-defeating really. It might be the reason for an issue, as it certainly was for me at one point, but to actually jump to thinking "Is this because of sexism" is pretty bad.

20. If you mean actual people, more men in higher positions means they're more reported on. if you're again referring to stereotypes, men have a a wide range of the same few stereotypes, which has more to do with male characters being more common because male writers are more common.

22. Young men get charged more for car insurance.

23. Depends on the venue, and if I do something stupid you can bet that it'll be treated by some people as a representation of my gender.

24. That's bullshit pretty much everywhere but college. Manwhores get shit and lose respect too.

25. If I want to get the right kind of date or avoid unwanted company when drinking alone, yes I do.

26. This is pretty clearly a trade-off.

27. This is largely something women care more about then guys, at least casually. In formal settings, the idea of well dressed is higher for women, but I'd say that has a lot to do with the former issue.

28. Having worked as a used car-salesmen for a bit, I can tell you why. Men, even if they don't know much about cars, come in like they do. Men who don't seem to understand what a good deal is get swindled just as often.

30. Instead your a loudmouth and a jackass.

31. Issues that women have innate legal advantages in.

35. Maternity leave is something that impacts businesses bottomline. This isn't sexist, it's simple fact.

36. Most major religions are abrahamic in origin. Branches of the same original one. outside of those, there are lots of female goddesses.

37. So if I want to stay home and take care of the house, I'm sort of boned.

38. 39. 40. You're talking about common relationship dynamics on an individual scale here. And are also issues stated earlier in the list, but rephrased to be about common societal viewpoints.

41. The ratio of sex-appeal men to sex-appeal women in media is pretty close to men and women in media as a whole. unless the point is for the character to be unattractive, most men portrayed in media are attractive.

43. Domestic violence on men is under-reported, and when it is, it's treated as a joke most of the time. And is played as a joke in all sorts of media.

44. But they do demand I help carry their shit, and call me scum and a pig if I don't, even if I'm in a hurry.

45. I've had my ass grabbed in a crowd plenty of times.

45. HAHAHA! Oh wait, you're serious. That's sad. Women interrupt me all the time, act pissy, and get in my face. If I respond by cutting them off and saying that they can't pull that shit? I'm a jerk and am very quickly labeled as a bad guy but anyone who's nearby.

46. I have the burden of being thought of as privileged, when there are at least as many privileges granted to women, and treated like a misogynist anytime I become unhappy with a specific case where I've been jilted for reasons of my gender.

I cut some out and didn't respond to them, largely because I don't feel like wasting even more time finding statistics to argue the point, or because I'm less familiar with that specific issue. The only ones I cut out that I'll admit are clearly one sided for issues of gender is that unattractive women do have it much tougher than unattractive men.

In general, I think women are unaware of the double standards men face. Do women have to deal with double standards? Sure. Do they have to do so more then men? That's debatable. If it seems like I undercut an important double standard women face in my response, this is because while it may be horrible or happen often, I'm taking into account how much attention and how socially acceptable it is compared to the double standards men face. On the major things, women almost certainly face it more often then the male counterpoint on most examples, but then there's public outcry against those and they're seen a horrible almost universally in first world countries. Double standards against men are usually ignored, sometimes laughed at, and at their worst put on a fucking pedestal. This is by far the worst double standard men face. That sexism against them is somehow better or okay.

 

[DJROC]

1: You suggest that employers should just offer, without prompt, pay increases to women in order to keep it balanced?

No.

Or that if a male asks for a raise, all people (cos it would have to be all people to keep it fair) people within the same broad job description also get a raise?

No.

What I'm suggesting is that it is socially encouraged for men to expect higher pay and positions, and that is not true for women; and that that is not a problem that we should disregard as something to be solved wholly by the sex it negatively effects as opposed to an issue to be solved by both.

Ok, yeah these people could come forward themselves, but friends, family, colleagues look out for women who get beaten. Courses are run to help social works identify the visible symptoms, so they can be helped WITHOUT making a big scene. This help simply does not exist for men because SOCIETY does not accept that it even happens! This is the big key deference between the two and the issue described in #1.

I would change that the help for men in abuse situations is less (not non-existent) because men are expected to deal with it on their own. Again, socially, women are very often seen as dependent (and in abuse cases, may be) and thus in need of rescue/support services should they need to leave the relationship. Men, socially, are expected to be independent and to either challenge the abuse back or leave the relationship without bother anyone; take care of themselves.

In this sense, there isn't any difference at all between this and #1. In both cases, the assumption is that women are socially meeker while men are more assertive. In the first case, the woman loses on pay because she is not assertive. In the second case, the man is physically and/or emotionally harmed because he is assertive.

4: I have before now been walked off an estate by my friends of an evening, despite have walked there alone, because I was not from the estate and therefore was quite likely to be attacked if I was not with him. Granted this was kinda a rough area. Fact is though that noone makes you walk your lady friend home other than your own personal misgivings. I admit, I have done the same. But we chose to do it. Statistically, 16-21 year old white males are the most likely to be attacked on the street, yet people dont think twice to letting them walk home alone. If anything, this is proof that we fail to protect the young white males in our community's and so is actually discriminating against males. Make of that what you will.

Quite true. Once more, it is evidence that we expect our males to defend and take care of themselves and not rely on others. What we need more of is people like your friends who escorted you, demonstrating that care should be extended to people regardless of their sex instead of risking harm due to unreasonable standards of masculinity.

7: You perhaps have a point if the date was 1985. Or maybe even 1992. But these days that is simply erroneous. So many people spend 10-15+ years without getting married, even having kids and living together that they may as well be married.

I would caution that "better than 1985" should not be considered equivalent to "full equality". Women have it better than they ever have, but now we are reaching the point at which we're saying "They've got it good enough, what about me?" Hence this topic.

You have a point in "sub-social-consciously associated with weakness and subservience" however it is not seen as "wrong" any long to fail to adhire to this stima as a woman, indeed some men would never dream of talking a partner who could not be defined as "strong" however if you willing become the "sub-social-consciously weak and subservient" this is a choice you make. Quite simply some people are happy like this. The issue then arises that men are socially not ALLOWED to make this choice.

Which is why, as was pointed out earlier, the solution should not be "women need to be more like men", because that's unfair. Men and women need to be equal which involves a meeting in the middle, and not the problem that comes from "If women want to 'be like men', they have the opportunity to, but men can't 'be like women'."

 

[Talshere]

1: You suggest that employers should just offer, without prompt, pay increases to women in order to keep it balanced?

No.

Or that if a male asks for a raise, all people (cos it would have to be all people to keep it fair) people within the same broad job description also get a raise?

No.

What I'm suggesting is that it is socially encouraged for men to expect higher pay and positions, and that is not true for women; and that that is not a problem that we should disregard as something to be solved wholly by the sex it negatively effects as opposed to an issue to be solved by both.

7: You perhaps have a point if the date was 1985. Or maybe even 1992. But these days that is simply erroneous. So many people spend 10-15+ years without getting married, even having kids and living together that they may as well be married.

I would caution that "better than 1985" should not be considered equivalent to "full equality". Women have it better than they ever have, but now we are reaching the point at which we're saying "They've got it good enough, what about me?" Hence this topic.

Snipping out the bits I don't argue with...


1: My argument is that its no-longer valid to say that women expect lower pay. My mother, in one of the most male dominated profession in the world, construction, would not expect lower pay at 55 odd. Sure as hell none of the women I know at uni would expect to be paid less than me for the same job. Its not that I don't thing this happened simply that it no longer happens. In which case this is no longer a social disposition. Even if we accept your definition as the absolute truth, "social perception needs to change to allow women to expect the same pay", assuming they already don't, the only people who cant actually achieve this.......Are them. Thus making my statement true. Since they start on equal pay. They must ask for the pay rise that makes them equal. Noone can ask for them...............................If they did then your contradicting your own "Women shouldn't be subservient" statement.

I AM CONFUSED!!! YOUR ARGUMENT MAKES NO SENSE >.<



7: Im not saying that 1985 was worse than now...Well, I am, but that 2011 the fact that "women must take a mans name" is simply not true. A woman may do whatever the hell she wants with her own name. Noone looks down on a woman for not taking a mans name. In the same way people dont look down on having sex out of wedlock. Or having children without being married. This stigma ONLY exists for men taking womens names.


I AM CONFUSED!!!!! ARGUMENT IS CONTRARY TO YOUR ARGUMENT >..<

 

[monkey_man]

I must post this, because usually, women are the ones speaking more, which gives more possibility to be interrupted.
The other points are fine, if a little extreme. Not EVERYONE gets raped, and there are successful women, just less because women weren't allowed to do shit not too long ago (and some still aren't) Also, every advantage has a disadvantage , mostly in the form of relationships. men DO not get to pick whoever they want, women get to. if a woman is average, she'll have guys lining up. Men who are average do not have this luxury.

I'm sorry but you are completely wrong there, and most of the time men will not even consider an average woman as a girlfriend. They have to look perfect.

Avarage girls are pretty much perfect, have you looked down a street seeing a couple of "do-able" girls, looking quite hot? You might not, because my first guess is that you are a woman, but trust me, most girls are good-looking. men will basically jump them if they were allowed.
men on the other hand, are not quite as often good looking on average, IMO. fortunately, there's always girls with personality and sweetness us guys can rely on. Hell, my girlfriend may not be a solid 10 in looks, but I love her, and that's what counts. but this derailment from the thread was not what I had in mind, so err, I'll leave it at this?

 

[Iron Criterion]

Please enlighten me as to what genuine benefits men have in society now?

Well in comparison to 'we get made fun of in adverts'

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Ok, how about the favouritism towards women in child custody cases? Or even when a girl uses a guy's infatuation with her to manipulate him and mess with his head; and she is seen by society as being 'a bit cold' when a guy in the role reversed would be a detestable abuser?

 

[The_Graff]

[/quote]I wholly believe that us males do not have it as bad as women did in the previous eras.[/quote]

oh really? throughout history, and yes even today, men have been called to sacrifice everything up to and including their lives for women. think about it (before responding with generic feminist diatribe) on the sinking ship, what is the call "women and children first" even placing it the other way around "children and women first" seems wrong to us. for the entirety of human history the safety and as far as possible comfort of women has been the main focus of life for most men.

think of another example (im brit, so i will focus on britain) jut before the first world war in britain we had the sufferage movement, who came known as the sufferagettes due to the main press attention being on the women involved (a great number of men were involved on the sufferage movement as the right to vote was contingent on owning a caertain acreage of land). history classes, movies and pop culture in general have remembered these a great cry for equality. and indeed equality was the main buzzword used by the women ivolved. but where were these brave champions of equality when the draft came, and british men were called to go and die in the trenches? to die for the protection of these women who were not required to defend themselves, as equals? where were the protests of these protofeminists then? where were the ladies throwing themselves at race-horses and attempting arson, or the siege of parliament for the ideal of equality in military service and risk of death?

modern accidental deaths at work figures bear this out ... women are like every other self proclaimed victim group, equal rights when it suits them, special treatment at all other times.

tl;dr: its not that long, c'mon, back to the top.

 

[Suicidejim]

Girls have to deal with some prejudice, so do guys. Let's not get into the "WE HAVE IT WORSE THAN YOU" debate, because unless it's demonstrable discrimination, which is simply unacceptable, most of it is either trivial or unfixable. The problem is that men and women are different. Yes, that's right, they aren't equal. I don't mean that in the sense that one is superior to the other, but in the way that a lemon and a lime are not equivalent, yet not necessarily superior over the other. The benefits and disadvantages of each gender are too numerous to count, differ in magnitude, and it's foolish to say that it leans further one side than the other, as well as insensitive to the obstacles others face. Just because one gender, in your eyes, is worse off, doesn't mean that the other gender therefore has no difficulties nor any right to complain about anything, ever.

Now, obviously, the sort of oppression women have dealt with historically is a different matter, and I'm glad matters have improved for women (although the 'women were always treated as inferior' theory isn't perfect, since in the earlier periods of human development they were almost revered for their ability to create life, seemingly from nothing. I realise that changes very little, but I always find that interesting, and thought I'd share it for those who don't know). Even so, striving for a perfectly equal environment for both sexes is a doomed pursuit, because if we were equal, there wouldn't be a need for this debate in the first place.

Now, hopefully, I've managed to get my personal opinion across without being crucified for it.

 

[bauke67]

It's true that when you make a sexist joke about a woman, you're a horrible sexist.
And that when when you do the the same about a man, it's funny.
I'm not saying that it isn't funny, but we should also be able to make jokes about women.
As for feminists?
To them I'd say:'Either get one of those real jobs you've been fighting for, or go to a country where what you do is actually still usefull.'

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

"According to the U.S. Department of Labor, a slim majority (51%) of workers in high-paying management and professional jobs are female."

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/03/best-paying-jobs-women-salary-forbes-woman-leadership-careers.html

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

Not neccessarily, if people are as sexist as this list implies surely you could argue i have LESS reason to be sure of this. I might know i was promoted because my boss is sexist to women. It would crush me to know i wasnt promoted because of my skills. This directly clashes with number 1.[\b]

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

You just said in two that people might promote due to sex, or at least it is thought that they do, if my women counterpart is promoted to shoor up the minority numbers then this becomes untrue. Clash with number 2[\b]

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

Men are put down a LOT for being slower or underperforming women, especially in earlier life. Id say this generalisation comes equally from both sides.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are.

Sexual harassment is not reported as much for male on male or female on male

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19536167/ns/business-personal_finance/t/male-sexual-harassment-not-joke/#.Tmtg99SJvbM

But yeah you are more likely too, ill grant you that

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

This has no basis on anything. This assumes a majority "CHANCES are" of people are sexist and this is untrue[\b]

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

Ill give you that, the inclusion of reletively low

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

This is a bit sexist against men in my opinion. I WISH i was taught this. I was mugged because i was not to the degree women apparently are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

Again men (particularly of my age 18-20) are calling immature or silly when we display our dislike of children and say we dont want them, ill give you this though, despite it being a "everyone knows" fact that people RARELY ACTUALLY see, this is a pretty openly sexist view, and i dont think many would be willing to express it even if they think it

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

This is a matter of psycology here, im sorry but this is fact. The maternal instinct is FAR more powerfull than the paternal instinct, we instinctively see the mother as the carer, the provider, its a VERY hard drilled instinct. You cant really argue with it, im sorry, it might not seem fair but thats not a societal thing more than a deeply engrained instinct[\b]


11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

Like i said, the instinct isnt as strong for fathers as it is for mothers, especially at a young age for the child. This stems from more barbaric times when tribal or group communities were small and men were the providers for a very crude family unit of the mother care giver. Not appropriate in todays society ill grant, but drilled in for millenia none the less.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

This varies a LOT depending on background and personal views, its not really a good sweeping statement, ill accept this one, albiet a very "this might never happen or always happen to a person"

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

Please site when this has ever happened to a female politicion, ive tried to find it and failed

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

Ill give you this too, i literally have no idea why women are not a larger % of politicions, i would vote them in on the same basis and jugdement as any man [\b]

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

Wrong, high paying jobs are 51% female, above link, the lower down the more certain you will be[\b]

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.



17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

Anyone can be a hero, does the gender matter at all? I dont see why girls need female role models. Gender shouldnt be an issue, its the messages they convay and the character that is built for them. If children are as simple as "because its a girl i cannot look up to them" they have been raised poorly or are very very young when "girls are icky" is a common view. A lot of cool girl shows, i mean you got the powerpuff girls, and MLP RIGHT NOW.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

I wish this was true in my school, girls were ALWAYS ALWAYS steriotyped with insanely good hand writing and presentation as well as just being smarter than boys, especially in primary school. ALL the classmates i felt overshadowed me and got a LOT of the teachers preference were female. Also ALL my teachers, all 30 in the school, were female. I think we MIGHT have had a male sub at one stage? Likely sexism to girls here

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

Do you need to ask that for yourself? I wouldnt say open sexism was common enough for this to be the case

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

Looks at todays paper, Gudaffi, horrific dictator. Awesome representation of my gender . Ill scan for the first woman. Princess Beatrice and the Duchess of York, heavily endorsing higher education. Just putting that out there

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

Sorry but women want more shoes, its a weird fact and i dont understand why. But its true. Does society tell them to want more shoes and fashion? More than likely. But it tends to be the case that high profile rich wives spend a LOT of their husbands money and as such set the tone for a spendaholic culture of women, this is sexist though and ill grant you it.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

Sorry but men have greater spatial awareness. This is a biological fact. Now this may be because men keep telling women 3 inches is 6. But im not too sure

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

Seriously? I was the only male in my debate team, in fact i only ever debated one other male out of 8, sex was never mentioned or "put on trial" and ive never seen this happen ever. Citation please

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

Ill give you this. Its horrible and i hate it too. As a matter of fact i dislike more guys for being a "slut" than i do women.

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

This is also true, but again this is more because of mens really REALLY crappy lust instinct that shittily sees bare flesh and sends a stupid message to them. We dont want it. We dont mean to, it just subconciously clicks. The better members of my gender control it well and ignore it, but its kinda forced on us, this has a deeply rooted psycological explanation.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

Women have greater scope of measurements than men, so this is a biological issue more than a societal one. Also i dispair at the lack of mens clothing. I dont like the lack of range,my girlfriend can go into town and find 6 /7 shops that cater to her taste in clothes, no matter how odd. I find 1/2 max, specifically designed for my gender in mind.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.

I demand, and many men also, very little. I shave, i put on deoderant and i maintain personal hygine. I expect as much from women maybe? Sometimes less. Im sure a lot of men agree. I dislike make up, this is a rather common opinion

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

No one is stopping women from being assertive if they want to, this is a personality thing rather than a gender thing

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

I WISH. I laughed at this. Id say from experience in secondary school that its 50/50 either way. Its as bad for both genders and to say other wise is just silly, being labelled as a no life loser virgin IS A VERY MALE LABEL, and is almost NEVER APPLIED TO WOMEN

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

People who are loud are called douches, people who are randomly aggressive are also called douches. Its more of a male slur

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

Not to sure about this one, ill let you have that, although i see nothing than extreme sympathy for those suffering from domestic violence, and over 500 shelters for those seeking help for it. Men have 6.

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

This is hardly sexist, this iis just ussage. Mankind refers to male and female, its just a linguistic thing, japanese actually never uses it. I dont see this as a big deal at all, this is a tad desperate for another point if you ask me

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

Sorry but having seen my girlfriend today and spent a long time in town with her i can say that (yep it is that timing) it has a MASSIVE impact on your emotions and men dont suffer from this. Its sad but its biology and thus isnt sexist.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

You kidding? I want to change my name when i get married. All guys ive told this two have acted with extreme confusion. My masculinity is questioned and many actively laugh at me.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

Again, biology, you have 9 months in which hormone changes are a given, another 5 where your physical form changes a lot (important in a physically based job) and theres always the question of stress harming the baby... its hardly our fault, or societies fault that we have a long gestation period. Biology rather than sexism.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

As an athiest i cant really comment. You cant really call any ONE religion ONE group. Its very fractured. Almost all the religious people i asked in light of this saw god as genderless.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

Cant really comment here, religion tends to have a massive dislike for everyone equally except white men. Its a bit backwards in places

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

Thats a massive relationship dynamic thing. I wouldnt say "chances are" as anything actually real, does that even mean anything? Doe your point have any basis? Any fact? Statistics? I thought the steriotype was the woman making the man do the chores by having to force him, because he is lazy.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

tends to be maternal/paternal instinct again, as much as we dont like it, men are programmed to be hunter gatherers while the imperative safety of the children is left to women, a LOOOONG time ago. Kinda sexist but drilled in :C

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

Again, horrible instinct, id like to think that society has moved a little on from this to the point where most couples will reason with eachother. Lazier ones or ones that dont mind making a career sacrifice might not.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

They are not really too rare, they just get ignored for the norm. Ever see a shirtless dude in a perfume advert? Or deoderant? Or in fact ANYWHERE where he is intended to be attractive? What about EVERY MOVIE HERO EVER who is a female object of desire forced to get shirtless to appeal to them (im looking at you twilight). EVERY DAY YOU SAY?! Wow.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

Ill give you this, although pressure is to be fitter for men. Im not unhealthy. But somehow im expected to be buff and work out, its not quite as much pressure, but its there.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

Actually the majority of REPORTED domestic disturbances are female on male, and we have SIX help centres across the country compared to the female 500

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

This is nice, i wish people were this friendly to me

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

I do to avoid mugging though, we have the same fears as you, they want to sexually harass you, they want to rob me, im equally as fearfull

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

Thats so subjective and differs so much between areas and personalities its not really worth adressing

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

If i had a penny for EVERY DAMN TIME im told women make 80% of what men that 80% would more be like 40%

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Read above if you will, many of these "facts" seem to be in the "they are true because everyone knows they are vien" and that doesnt fly with me. Ive cracked a few. Some ill give you.

 

[DaJoW]

People tend to see discrimination against themselves either as far more serious than it is, or where there just plain is none (see for instance how there are people in the US claiming they are being discriminated against because they can't put up the ten commandments in courts). Are there double standards? Yes, of course there is. That doesn't mean men are being discriminated against, just that society views similar events differently. With men having had top positions in pretty much everything for a long time, it's more reasonable to blame previous generations of men than the current generation of women.

 

[Moosejaw]

Another big point! Over 90% of on-the-job related deaths are...men. I don't see anyone scrambling to close the 'death gap'.

Think MovieBob talked about 'positive-discrimination' in his video on Thor/Idris Elba.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3183-Skin-Deep
"Sometimes embracing a double standard is the right thing to do."

Positive-discrimination being the result of serious discrimination in the past. Black men, homosexuals and women are all emerging from a long period of oppression. The pendulum needs to swing the other way before society re-aligns itself properly.

All good.

I remember this post and I remember shaking my head. Do you know what 'Turnabout is fair play' when applied to groups instead of individuals tends to result in? It doesn't result in perfect harmony, it results in deliberately tweaking the nose of folks who never committed any of alleged crimes they are being held responsible for as a group. It results in frustration, anger and resentment which will eventually lead to violence on both sides. Collective guilt is never going to get you peace, it will lead to war like any form of baseless hatred.

Fact of the matter is, men and women are different. We've evolved over the years with each of us carrying different strengths and weaknesses and those various attributes are made so we can compliment each other, not fight each other. In the end, however, gender roles or not you should end up doing what you personally want to do - but it's going to take a long, long time to get rid of those roles entirely if it's even possible at all. They're what's gotten us to where we are today and they're what defines us as a species.

 

[Trivea]

I wholly agree with the OP. Comparing how the genders have it -right now-, the men seem to have it worse. It's all right to pick on men, but do it to women and you'll have NOW on your ass. (On that note, could you imagine starting up an all-male answer to NOW? It would never fly.)

Like a few years back, how that all-male golf club in Florida was taken to court and forced to allow women to join. It's all right to have all-female clubs but guys can't do the same thing? It's stupid.

 

[Callate]

"Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!"

...

I'm not going to claim that women have it easy. There's a lot of shit that women have to put up with that men don't, and I'll grant that some of it, most men aren't even aware of. But I do think that by and large it's getting better for women in many places.

And without going through that list line-by-line, some of it is less true with every passing day, and a lot of it isn't really the case any more at all, or was pretty controversial to begin with (like the idea of girls getting less attention at school.)

While I hardly think it's productive to get into "we have it worse" shoving matches, I also think it's very true that men also have a lot of unique issues and problems in society that women don't consider, and sneering proclamations of "privilege" just serve to kill the possibility of anyone even trying to understand one another.

Consider that men who do choose to stay at home with their children are far more likely to end up getting divorced from their spouses, and a recent survey suggested that many women are simply not even willing to consider marrying someone who would choose to stay at home.

Consider that men are more likely to find themselves in situations where they're expected to display power and dominance, even in supposedly friendly social situations.

Consider that men are told from a very young age that they aren't ever supposed to show pain or weakness, a cultural outlook that replays its ugly side every time someone in the armed forces comes home with PTSD.

Again, I'm not saying men have it worse. I'm just saying that we do everyone a disservice when we trivialize each others' issues. Maybe we can cut each other some goddamn slack rather than being shitty to one another in mirrored but equally self-centered and ignorant ways?

 

[Evidencebased]

I wholly believe that us males do not have it as bad as women did in the previous eras.

oh really? throughout history, and yes even today, men have been called to sacrifice everything up to and including their lives for women. think about it (before responding with generic feminist diatribe) on the sinking ship, what is the call "women and children first" even placing it the other way around "children and women first" seems wrong to us. for the entirety of human history the safety and as far as possible comfort of women has been the main focus of life for most men.

think of another example (im brit, so i will focus on britain) jut before the first world war in britain we had the sufferage movement, who came known as the sufferagettes due to the main press attention being on the women involved (a great number of men were involved on the sufferage movement as the right to vote was contingent on owning a caertain acreage of land). history classes, movies and pop culture in general have remembered these a great cry for equality. and indeed equality was the main buzzword used by the women ivolved. but where were these brave champions of equality when the draft came, and british men were called to go and die in the trenches? to die for the protection of these women who were not required to defend themselves, as equals? where were the protests of these protofeminists then? where were the ladies throwing themselves at race-horses and attempting arson, or the siege of parliament for the ideal of equality in military service and risk of death?

modern accidental deaths at work figures bear this out ... women are like every other self proclaimed victim group, equal rights when it suits them, special treatment at all other times.

tl;dr: its not that long, c'mon, back to the top.

In the case of the Titanic, for example, a large number of the 1st class male passengers made it into lifeboats while a large number of the poorer women and children did not. And that was in the case of an actual attempt to let women and children go first; in a similar (later) incident the men -- who had heard of the deaths on the Titanic -- dropped their chivalry pretty quickly and the majority of survivors were able-bodied young guys, who were able to fight their way into the lifeboats. So I wouldn't exactly say that the lives of women are always valued very highly!

As for WWI, I'm pretty sure a few of those women were on the battlefield, actually, and many more stayed home to do jobs that the men who were drafted couldn't do. And how in the world was WWI about the "comfort of women"? As far as I know a bunch of men started it, a bunch of men continued it, and then a bunch of men were drafted to end it... Women didn't have a lot of political power in the early 1900s, yanno. And I wouldn't call multiple continent-spanning wars either "safe" or "comfortable" for anyone involved -- if the wellbeing of anyone was of high importance maybe (German) men wouldn't have started so much shit.

And more generally, when has there ever been a law that you can beat your husband, but only with a stick thinner than your thumb? Or that if you rape a boy he has to marry you? Or that young men cannot leave the house without a relative to escort them, or with their faces uncovered? You gonna try to pretend that men have honestly being treated as subhumanly as that, historically?