Sexism; Or The Turning of Tables

[Queen Michael]

These threads are so super.
Prepare for most people here to agree with you.

I understand your pain, I hate it when previously oppressed people get a few double standards in their favour too. What'll they want next, equal rights? Pfft...

Look, I'll tell you the same thing I told my boyfriend, if you want the male-only gyms, chubby male models and to be able to poke fun at women in ads then grand, not a bother. I'll gladly take all the other benefits you have in society that are actually important and trade.

Seriously, the fact that these are the only things you can think of it's clear that you've never actually been discriminated against in a serious manner.


EDIT: I'm not saying other men haven't been, because I know people will jump on that, I'm just saying what you pointed out is really trivial.

It's not trivial. The examples he mentioned include sexual harrassment and unrealistic beauty standards. Those aren't unimportant. Not as big a prblem as other issues, perhaps, but that does NOT mean that they're not a problem.

 

[manic_depressive13]

You have forgotten the work and education benefits that women get and no one bats and eyelid. There are many scholarships for women in particular fields such as engineering and science but if some university were to have a scholarship that was limited to men then there would be an outcry.

Um? There were scholarships limited only to men. You know, until fairly recently when women were actually allowed to go to university. Now they are trying to fix the absurd gender gaps in these feilds by balancing negative social pressure with financial encouragement. Unless you think that science and engineering professions are male dominated because women are inherently worse at them.

The are also laws in some countries that state that boards must be at least 40% women. Please don't take this as women should not have education and be allowed to work but I feel that the education and job you get should be based on your ability and results instead of you sex. Sex should not effect anything but sadly that is not the truth, for women and men, but enacting sexist laws is not the answer.

Yes, it is. You still need to be qualified for those jobs if you are female. It just means that if there are two equally qualified candidates and one is female, she will get the job. Want to know why? It's because pervasive sexist attitudes have caused male employers to immediately dismiss female candidates purely based on what's between their legs.

The answer is correct sexist stereotypes and people.

Yes, but in order for that to be possible, you have to legislate. Otherwise, women are unable to find jobs due to discrimination. Then they're assumed to be incapable of doing them because if they could, someone would have employed them. Their ability is called into question and you get wonderful arguments like: "If men an women are equally intelligent, why were all the major scientific discoveries in the 19th century made by men?" Or "If women are qualified for executive positions, why can't they get them?" Or "If women are really worth employing, why should they need legislation to avoid being immediately disregarded?"

 

[DJROC]

1:My mother works for the county council. Your damn right they are all on the same pay If they weren't it would be all over the papers. This is what Job descriptions and pay grades are all about. If they dont have equal wages, and they do the same job and are as good at at they can go to the court and make themselves rich off a sexual discrimination case. This isnt exactly without precedent in the UK. Even if they arnt as good at the job and are paid less the court will post a value with they believe is the maximum she can be paid less than her coworker based on performance. Which is more then any male counterpart would get because they would just think, "he is better at it then me, he deserves the money".

Then this may be a difference between our countries then, as the UK's income disparity is less severe than the United States'.

I still dont see where your coming from tbh. Women are socially pressured not to negotiate for higher pay? What? Really? Noone has ever told me that I have to do this...Ever. Its not a social its a business thing. When your accepting a job, you get as much pay as you can. I thought EVERYBODY was smart enough to do that? Your telling me that society as a whole is telling women "Look love I know you COULD ask for 30k but you should probably only got for 28, we wouldn't want you earning everything you could". Sorry I call bull. This does not happen in any way mean or form.

I was coming from an exaggerated hypothetical position to help explain the joint social influence that both sexes have over each other. There are a great many things that we learn by social conditioning that we are never explicitly told. People tend to rate customer service higher for white male sales associates than for women or nonwhites, for example. That's not something that you get instructed to do, but that's something that happens. We cannot dismiss the possibilities of being implicitly encouraged or discouraged to do it simply because we're not explicitly encouraged or discouraged to do it.

7: If a couple have been together 15 years, have 2 kids, live together, but remain unmarried and each keep their own name, noone but a few of the older generation will care. Even they will only mumble. For all intent and purpose, noone cares.

*snip*

Research from last year [http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01973530903539812?journalCode=hbas20]:
"Marital name change is not without consequences. Women who took their partner's name appear to be different from women who kept their own name on a variety of demographics and beliefs, which are more or less associated with the female stereotype (Study 1). Subsequent studies show that women's surnames are used as a cue for judgment (Studies 2?4). A woman who took her partner's name or a hyphenated name was judged as more caring, more dependent, less intelligent, more emotional, less competent, and less ambitious in comparison with a woman who kept her own name. A woman with her own name, on the other hand, was judged as less caring, more independent, more ambitious, more intelligent, and more competent, which was similar to an unmarried woman living together or a man. Finally, a job applicant who took her partner's name, in comparison with one with her own name, was less likely to be hired for a job and her monthly salary was estimated [euro]861,21 lower (calculated to a working life, [euro]361.708,20)."

It matters. We want to believe it doesn't; that we're fabulously open minded and all permissive. We are not.

 

[trooper6]

Sorry to come back to you on this. I don't want to seem like I'm just picking on you, but you are one of the more vocal contributors to this thread and you make well-reasoned arguments, so I'm just more inclined to respond.

I'll start by saying that I do disagree with the OP. But I think it is important to note that there are areas in which men are at a disadvantage, and by immediately jumping in with 'but women have it worse' you're trivialising the issues that actually do affect men.

There are two sides to every argument. For example, women are more likely to be sexually harassed at work. However, they are also more likely to be taken seriously in the event of such harassment, and the disciplinary action against their harasser will be harsher. Women are encouraged to give up their job to look after newborn babies, but men are discouraged from doing the same thing.

Again, sorry to keep beating the same drum, and again this is not meant to single you out, but the focus should be on removing all inequalities, rather than only those that affect one's own sex.

But here is the main problem. The OP is not saying, let us remove all inequalities, he's saying men are the victims of sexism perpetrated by women. And many of the posters are saying the same thing. Further blaming feminism for all of their woes.

But if any of these people had any real understanding of feminism--but not only feminism, but the work of social justice in general--they would see that this stance...a stance that is cropping up all over the boards...is misguided and against the best interests of the men themselves.

Do men suffer? Yes. But it isn't women who is making them suffer...because women aren't controlling the system we are all suffering under...which is the white supremacist heteropatriarchy. The Patriarchy is also unhealthy for men. The demand for dominance, diminishing men's domestic abilities, not allowing men vulnerability...all those other elements...that is not women...that is the patriarchy that is imposing these impossible standards on men. And feminists, especially third wave feminists (but also a number of liberal second wave feminists) have been fighting against these things as well. Because as long as men are internalizing these unhealthy patriarchal attitudes it isn't good for women, it isn't good for men.

Women--who couldn't even vote until 1920 in the US--aren't the cause of these problems for men. Feminism isn't the cause of these problems men are going through. Feminism has been working to dismantle patriarchy...which would liberate men as much as it would liberate women. But as long as all the guys here run around attacking women, they don't work on dismantling the root problem. Similarly, when poor whites and poor blacks fight against each other, they aren't recognizing the ways in which they are both suffering under class oppression and they don't end up fighting the power that is actually oppressing them.

The guys here are saying, I don't want to have to be a Space Marine...women are being sexist against me. But feminist women don't want you to be a space marine either. Attacking one of the few groups, feminists, who actually understand the toxic nature of patriarchy on men as well as women, is not going to help free men from the unhealthy gender oppressions the patriarchy places on them. As allies together change can happen. But right now, by attacking some of the only people who could help, you make your own liberation that much more difficult...which is what the kyriarchy wants.

ETA: But it is also important to note that it isn't women's job to make men go through consciousness raising. Only men can do that for themselves. Someone upthread said, "Women can be all these things! They can work and stay at home, men can only work." That is something men have to work through. How did women get to the space? They worked really hard on consciousness raising. They went inside themselves and tried to reject the bad messages of patriarchy (not all the women are liberated, of course, many still read The Rules and other sexist crap, many still have lots of internalized sexism against themselves). When men feel they can't work and stay home...that is a problem with we men internalizing messages of patriarchy. We need to do our own consciousness raising to free ourselves from the oppressive messages of patriarchy. This is internal psychological work. We have to do that on our own. Women can't do it for us. They can help some by complaining about unhealthy representations of manhood in the media (which they do), but we have to do some stuff for ourselves too.

 

[b3nn3tt]

But here is the main problem. The OP is not saying, let us remove all inequalities, he's saying men are the victims of sexism perpetrated by women. And many of the posters are saying the same thing. Further blaming feminism for all of their woes.

But if any of these people had any real understanding of feminism--but not only feminism, but the work of social justice in general--they would see that this stance...a stance that is cropping up all over the boards...is misguided and against the best interests of the men themselves.

Do men suffer? Yes. But it isn't women who is making them suffer...because women aren't controlling the system we are all suffering under...which is the white supremacist heteropatriarchy. The Patriarchy is also unhealthy for men. The demand for dominance, diminishing men's domestic abilities, not allowing men vulnerability...all those other elements...that is not women...that is the patriarchy that is imposing these impossible standards on men. And feminists, especially third wave feminists (but also a number of liberal second wave feminists) have been fighting against these things as well. Because as long as men are internalizing these unhealthy patriarchal attitudes it isn't good for women, it isn't good for men.

Women--who couldn't even vote until 1920 in the US--aren't the cause of these problems for men. Feminism isn't the cause of these problems men are going through. Feminism has been working to dismantle patriarchy...which would liberate men as much as it would liberate women. But as long as all the guys here run around attacking women, they don't work on dismantling the root problem. Similarly, when poor whites and poor blacks fight against each other, they aren't recognizing the ways in which they are both suffering under class oppression and they don't end up fighting the power that is actually oppressing them.

The guys here are saying, I don't want to have to be a Space Marine...women are being sexist against me. But feminist women don't want you to be a space marine either. Attacking one of the few groups, feminists, who actually understand the toxic nature of patriarchy on men as well as women, is not going to help free men from the unhealthy gender oppressions the patriarchy places on them. As allies together change can happen. But right now, by attacking some of the only people who could help, you make your own liberation that much more difficult...which is what the kyriarchy wants.

And I completely disagree wit the OP as well. I agree with you that it's hardly women who are perpetrating any injustices that men feel, but I actually haven't got the feeling from this thread that guys are actually blaming women, it seems more like they're saying 'these are things that happen to men'.

What I've been continually saying throughout this thread is that nothing will improve as long as each side is constantly fighting over who has it worse and who's to blame. People need to start recognising inequalities that affect people, not just those that affect their own sex.

 

[Verlander]

Well in comparison to 'we get made fun of in adverts'

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Spoiler: The male privilege checklist response

3. I've lost promotions due to my sex. very blatantly so. I had a female boss who publicly said she'd never promote a man because we were sexist scum blah blah blah all men are pigs blah blah. I was one of three guys working under her on a staff of around forty I think. I spent pretty much all my time fixing the fuck-ups of my co-workers, having to work unpaid overtime to do so, and eventually quit after being berated for thousandth time for somehow being responsible for one of the obviously perfect female employees.

4. Ah, but my gender was most certainly blamed for my co-workers fuck-ups. So much better.

5. While my boss certainly didn't do this, with a mostly female staff, I was in fact treated as a piece of eye candy. Which is annoying as fuck when you're trying to get work done.

6. See above.

7. Male rape being unreported, you're downplaying prison rape, and statistics on female rape tend to include any case someone has reported it, even if it's racanted by later. False reports happen.

8. Instead I've been taught never to be alone with a female I don't know VERY well if there's not a recording device present, because if she accuses me of rape my life is fucked.

9. Instead you get called immature for not growing up and settling down.

10. Primary care is typically a medical term, as far as I'm familiar with. I'll assume you mean an active role in early stages of parenting, in which case you're called a poor fucking father to anyone who realizes it. It's just not something as closely looked at, assuming the father is also working.

11. Most praise men receive for this is belittling and isolating. It's almost always treated as weird and awkward, as if he's stepping outside of his role and a woman should be the one doing it. Which is pretty discouraging for a father who wants to help guide his child's early development.

12. No, a lot of people think this. Especially the children, who's opinion on this matters most. If the mother is doing this, the kids will be told to be proud of having such a strong woman as a mother.

14. I fail to see how this is some privilege for my gender, especially beyond the idea that men have an easier time getting the positions. On pretty much any issue of gender, male politicians support the same things as female politicians.

15. Unless most cases of male higher-ups berate you for your sex, which I can about a quarter the women I've met under the circumstance have done, I don't see the issue with this, aside from men possibly having an easier time getting those positions.

16. This is a difference, sure, but I think it's the opposite of a privilege. We're encouraged to be something, and if we're not we're treated as if there's something wrong with us. My step-sister is started off failrly inactive, and then ended up as a bit of a tomboy. She wasn't derided at any of these points.

17. You can find them sure, but how often are they portrayed as something you want to be? The action-hero esque guy is shoved down our throat as the ideal male.

18. I have no idea of statistics supporting this, but my experience is the opposite. My school shoved girls who were clearly not smart enough for it into the advanced classes to have it be more gender even, and the girls got plenty of attention.

19. If your life is going badly, regardless of gender, you really shouldn't need to ask this. It's sort of self-defeating really. It might be the reason for an issue, as it certainly was for me at one point, but to actually jump to thinking "Is this because of sexism" is pretty bad.

20. If you mean actual people, more men in higher positions means they're more reported on. if you're again referring to stereotypes, men have a a wide range of the same few stereotypes, which has more to do with male characters being more common because male writers are more common.

22. Young men get charged more for car insurance.

23. Depends on the venue, and if I do something stupid you can bet that it'll be treated by some people as a representation of my gender.

24. That's bullshit pretty much everywhere but college. Manwhores get shit and lose respect too.

25. If I want to get the right kind of date or avoid unwanted company when drinking alone, yes I do.

26. This is pretty clearly a trade-off.

27. This is largely something women care more about then guys, at least casually. In formal settings, the idea of well dressed is higher for women, but I'd say that has a lot to do with the former issue.

28. Having worked as a used car-salesmen for a bit, I can tell you why. Men, even if they don't know much about cars, come in like they do. Men who don't seem to understand what a good deal is get swindled just as often.

30. Instead your a loudmouth and a jackass.

31. Issues that women have innate legal advantages in.

35. Maternity leave is something that impacts businesses bottomline. This isn't sexist, it's simple fact.

36. Most major religions are abrahamic in origin. Branches of the same original one. outside of those, there are lots of female goddesses.

37. So if I want to stay home and take care of the house, I'm sort of boned.

38. 39. 40. You're talking about common relationship dynamics on an individual scale here. And are also issues stated earlier in the list, but rephrased to be about common societal viewpoints.

41. The ratio of sex-appeal men to sex-appeal women in media is pretty close to men and women in media as a whole. unless the point is for the character to be unattractive, most men portrayed in media are attractive.

43. Domestic violence on men is under-reported, and when it is, it's treated as a joke most of the time. And is played as a joke in all sorts of media.

44. But they do demand I help carry their shit, and call me scum and a pig if I don't, even if I'm in a hurry.

45. I've had my ass grabbed in a crowd plenty of times.

45. HAHAHA! Oh wait, you're serious. That's sad. Women interrupt me all the time, act pissy, and get in my face. If I respond by cutting them off and saying that they can't pull that shit? I'm a jerk and am very quickly labeled as a bad guy but anyone who's nearby.

46. I have the burden of being thought of as privileged, when there are at least as many privileges granted to women, and treated like a misogynist anytime I become unhappy with a specific case where I've been jilted for reasons of my gender.

I cut some out and didn't respond to them, largely because I don't feel like wasting even more time finding statistics to argue the point, or because I'm less familiar with that specific issue. The only ones I cut out that I'll admit are clearly one sided for issues of gender is that unattractive women do have it much tougher than unattractive men.

In general, I think women are unaware of the double standards men face. Do women have to deal with double standards? Sure. Do they have to do so more then men? That's debatable. If it seems like I undercut an important double standard women face in my response, this is because while it may be horrible or happen often, I'm taking into account how much attention and how socially acceptable it is compared to the double standards men face. On the major things, women almost certainly face it more often then the male counterpoint on most examples, but then there's public outcry against those and they're seen a horrible almost universally in first world countries. Double standards against men are usually ignored, sometimes laughed at, and at their worst put on a fucking pedestal. This is by far the worst double standard men face. That sexism against them is somehow better or okay.

I agree that sexism against men is seen as "ok", in the same way that racism against whites can be seen as "ok", religious discrimination against Christians is "ok", and ageism against both the young and old is seen as "ok", when it clearly shouldn't be ok. That's our cross to bear I guess.

The issue is that in general, over the whole of western society, middle aged, middle class white men have it the best. Still. I've experienced a fair bit of discrimination, and God knows that women are the worst at it (in the UK, there is a phrase called "man-flu", as well as many marketing campaigns that set out to belittle and victimise men as useless and unintelligent compared to women, which irritates the fuck out of me), but we just have to accept that on average, we are still more likely to succeed.

Whether that's because of privilege or because of some innate superiority really remains to be seen, but there's no way that women are going to admit men are in any way superior to them (rightly so), so they're always going to have issue with the fact that, in their minds, we are privileged. It's a double standard, but it's the price we pay for generally have a better opportunity at life.

I do see exactly where you're coming from thoguh, and you aren't wrong. That first list is a massive load of bollocks.

 

[b3nn3tt]

Sorry, double post

 

[CrystalShadow]

Argh. This in particular, and well, really this thread in general reminds me so much of the impossible arguments you can get into on this kind of subject.

For instance, I've seen your argument used by both sides in a yelling match between some radical feminists and transsexuals.

Since both sides insist the other is privileged, and neither is capable or willing to admit to it... You get both sides claiming the other is being oppressive, and both then using your exact argument as a counter-claim.

It'd be vaguely amusing for it's inane stupidity if you were an impartial third party, but since I most certainly am not...

That's where this becomes so incredibly convoluted though. When you've got an obviously priviliged group abusing another, it's usually easy to spot.

When you have an abused minority arguing with people who claim to represent another abused group (who in this particular case aren't a minority, but in more general cases probably would be), and especially when various aspects of the argument suggest they are indeed abusing eachother in some sense...

Well I really can't call it anything other than a complete and utter headache. Unfortunately, it's not one that seems resolvable without some outside influence that is sufficiently neutral and respected by both sides to arbitrate it somewhat.
And good luck on finding anyone like that... >_<

It's enough to drive a person completely mad. Which I guess, to be fair, it did.

Reading <a href=http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/03/feminism-101-situational-and-relative.html>this might help. in particular this part:

And when "progress for women" comes at the expense of, say, the gay community, that's not actually progress for women at all. That's just progress for straight women. When it comes at the expense of women of color, that's just progress for white women. When it comes at the expense of trans women, that's just progress for cis women. And so on.

That's why an inclusive feminism is the only feminism that ultimately makes any sense?and an inclusive feminism is only possible when privileged women (white women, straight women, cis women, thin women, able-bodied women, Western women, wealthy women, employed women, etc.) acknowledge their relative privilege to other women.

Pretty much everyone is privileged in one aspect or another. And as long as people aren't willing to recognize their privilege, aren't even willing to entertain the possibility that it might exist, well, there's only so far the dialogue can go.

Thanks. It never hurts to see something sane when you're feeling totally confused.

What I know of feminism basically comes from 2 sources, one being my mother (who is quite disillusioned with it and the end results of what happened in the 70's), and... Accidentally stumbling across a set of radical feminist blogs...

Now, I really should know better, but the combination of learning about feminism from these two sources has led to me having an instinctive negative gut reaction to quite a number of common things that many feminists use to illustrate various problems. (The first page of this thread for instance contains a 'male privilege checklist')

I know on a rational level that I shouldn't react like that to feminism, but over-exposure to some really hostile uses of it... (Well, it's not a rational thing. Just a gut reaction.)

So... Anything that counteracts that instinctive reaction I now have is definitely a good thing to see.

So, thanks for showing it to me.

 

[Talshere]

I still dont see where your coming from tbh. Women are socially pressured not to negotiate for higher pay? What? Really? Noone has ever told me that I have to do this...Ever. Its not a social its a business thing. When your accepting a job, you get as much pay as you can. I thought EVERYBODY was smart enough to do that? Your telling me that society as a whole is telling women "Look love I know you COULD ask for 30k but you should probably only got for 28, we wouldn't want you earning everything you could". Sorry I call bull. This does not happen in any way mean or form.

I was coming from an exaggerated hypothetical position to help explain the joint social influence that both sexes have over each other. There are a great many things that we learn by social conditioning that we are never explicitly told. People tend to rate customer service higher for white male sales associates than for women or nonwhites, for example. That's not something that you get instructed to do, but that's something that happens. We cannot dismiss the possibilities of being implicitly encouraged or discouraged to do it simply because we're not explicitly encouraged or discouraged to do it.

So because society knows that Irish, Scottish and Welsh accents on the end of a phone have a calming affect on irate customers in England, combined with a knowledge that generally angry people respond better women, all Scottish, Welsh and Irish women are subconsciously pushed into English call centres...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... Your example does not hold up when applied to other scenarios.


To an "extent" I would accept that there is still an expectation that secretaries and PA's are women and so statistically this is true because more women become PA's and secretaries, positions which are generally lower(ish) pay (though not exclusively, some PA's earn a fortune). But generally I reject your hypothesis at least in the format we have been arguing it. It may be true for certain jobs specifically that awe low payed as above, but men have their fair share of them too. Desk jockeys are almost universally depicted as men and are generally crap hours for crap pay.

7: If a couple have been together 15 years, have 2 kids, live together, but remain unmarried and each keep their own name, noone but a few of the older generation will care. Even they will only mumble. For all intent and purpose, noone cares.

Research from last year [http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01973530903539812?journalCode=hbas20]:
"Marital name change is not without consequences. Women who took their partner's name appear to be different from women who kept their own name on a variety of demographics and beliefs, which are more or less associated with the female stereotype (Study 1). Subsequent studies show that women's surnames are used as a cue for judgment (Studies 2?4). A woman who took her partner's name or a hyphenated name was judged as more caring, more dependent, less intelligent, more emotional, less competent, and less ambitious in comparison with a woman who kept her own name. A woman with her own name, on the other hand, was judged as less caring, more independent, more ambitious, more intelligent, and more competent, which was similar to an unmarried woman living together or a man. Finally, a job applicant who took her partner's name, in comparison with one with her own name, was less likely to be hired for a job and her monthly salary was estimated [euro]861,21 lower (calculated to a working life, [euro]361.708,20)."

It matters. We want to believe it doesn't; that we're fabulously open minded and all permissive. We are not.

Can argue with this I guess. Its suggests that some of the society at least think like this. May I however commit a faux pas and suggest that these opinions are grounded in truth due to the personality type. A woman who takes her husbands name suggests a long term commitment and a grounding in traditional values IE families, and so it likely to want to have kids. Conversely not taking your husbands name suggests a modern outlook on life which is generally associated with a career woman. I suspect this will change over the next 50 years as not taking names because ore and more than norm. As it is when my parents got married in the 80's and my mum didnt take my dads name it was more than rare and caused all sort of problems with various official entities just because they had no facility for "married" without same names. I actually believe my birth certificate was wrong for nearly 4 years because they assumed my mother had my fathers name. Ikd. I can see why, but I dont think it persists into the new generation. Most of us have parents with partners with different names due to the massive divorce rate and the fact most couples doing the rerun dont bother with marriage, certainly not the name. It kinda changes your outlook on such thing. But for now. I coincide this point to you good sir.

 

[cobra_ky]

Thanks. It never hurts to see something sane when you're feeling totally confused.

What I know of feminism basically comes from 2 sources, one being my mother (who is quite disillusioned with it and the end results of what happened in the 70's), and... Accidentally stumbling across a set of radical feminist blogs...

Now, I really should know better, but the combination of learning about feminism from these two sources has led to me having an instinctive negative gut reaction to quite a number of common things that many feminists use to illustrate various problems. (The first page of this thread for instance contains a 'male privilege checklist')

I know on a rational level that I shouldn't react like that to feminism, but over-exposure to some really hostile uses of it... (Well, it's not a rational thing. Just a gut reaction.)

So... Anything that counteracts that instinctive reaction I now have is definitely a good thing to see.

So, thanks for showing it to me.

No problem. I was lucky to be introduced to it by a friend of mine who practiced a very positive, modern feminism. And i've been turned off by some seriously hostile feminist critiques too. Although, you do realize that male privilege checklist was written by a man, right?

 

[dystopiaINC]

Well in comparison to 'we get made fun of in adverts'

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Spoiler: The male privilege checklist response

3. I've lost promotions due to my sex. very blatantly so. I had a female boss who publicly said she'd never promote a man because we were sexist scum blah blah blah all men are pigs blah blah. I was one of three guys working under her on a staff of around forty I think. I spent pretty much all my time fixing the fuck-ups of my co-workers, having to work unpaid overtime to do so, and eventually quit after being berated for thousandth time for somehow being responsible for one of the obviously perfect female employees.

4. Ah, but my gender was most certainly blamed for my co-workers fuck-ups. So much better.

5. While my boss certainly didn't do this, with a mostly female staff, I was in fact treated as a piece of eye candy. Which is annoying as fuck when you're trying to get work done.

6. See above.

7. Male rape being unreported, you're downplaying prison rape, and statistics on female rape tend to include any case someone has reported it, even if it's racanted by later. False reports happen.

8. Instead I've been taught never to be alone with a female I don't know VERY well if there's not a recording device present, because if she accuses me of rape my life is fucked.

9. Instead you get called immature for not growing up and settling down.

10. Primary care is typically a medical term, as far as I'm familiar with. I'll assume you mean an active role in early stages of parenting, in which case you're called a poor fucking father to anyone who realizes it. It's just not something as closely looked at, assuming the father is also working.

11. Most praise men receive for this is belittling and isolating. It's almost always treated as weird and awkward, as if he's stepping outside of his role and a woman should be the one doing it. Which is pretty discouraging for a father who wants to help guide his child's early development.

12. No, a lot of people think this. Especially the children, who's opinion on this matters most. If the mother is doing this, the kids will be told to be proud of having such a strong woman as a mother.

14. I fail to see how this is some privilege for my gender, especially beyond the idea that men have an easier time getting the positions. On pretty much any issue of gender, male politicians support the same things as female politicians.

15. Unless most cases of male higher-ups berate you for your sex, which I can about a quarter the women I've met under the circumstance have done, I don't see the issue with this, aside from men possibly having an easier time getting those positions.

16. This is a difference, sure, but I think it's the opposite of a privilege. We're encouraged to be something, and if we're not we're treated as if there's something wrong with us. My step-sister is started off failrly inactive, and then ended up as a bit of a tomboy. She wasn't derided at any of these points.

17. You can find them sure, but how often are they portrayed as something you want to be? The action-hero esque guy is shoved down our throat as the ideal male.

18. I have no idea of statistics supporting this, but my experience is the opposite. My school shoved girls who were clearly not smart enough for it into the advanced classes to have it be more gender even, and the girls got plenty of attention.

19. If your life is going badly, regardless of gender, you really shouldn't need to ask this. It's sort of self-defeating really. It might be the reason for an issue, as it certainly was for me at one point, but to actually jump to thinking "Is this because of sexism" is pretty bad.

20. If you mean actual people, more men in higher positions means they're more reported on. if you're again referring to stereotypes, men have a a wide range of the same few stereotypes, which has more to do with male characters being more common because male writers are more common.

22. Young men get charged more for car insurance.

23. Depends on the venue, and if I do something stupid you can bet that it'll be treated by some people as a representation of my gender.

24. That's bullshit pretty much everywhere but college. Manwhores get shit and lose respect too.

25. If I want to get the right kind of date or avoid unwanted company when drinking alone, yes I do.

26. This is pretty clearly a trade-off.

27. This is largely something women care more about then guys, at least casually. In formal settings, the idea of well dressed is higher for women, but I'd say that has a lot to do with the former issue.

28. Having worked as a used car-salesmen for a bit, I can tell you why. Men, even if they don't know much about cars, come in like they do. Men who don't seem to understand what a good deal is get swindled just as often.

30. Instead your a loudmouth and a jackass.

31. Issues that women have innate legal advantages in.

35. Maternity leave is something that impacts businesses bottomline. This isn't sexist, it's simple fact.

36. Most major religions are abrahamic in origin. Branches of the same original one. outside of those, there are lots of female goddesses.

37. So if I want to stay home and take care of the house, I'm sort of boned.

38. 39. 40. You're talking about common relationship dynamics on an individual scale here. And are also issues stated earlier in the list, but rephrased to be about common societal viewpoints.

41. The ratio of sex-appeal men to sex-appeal women in media is pretty close to men and women in media as a whole. unless the point is for the character to be unattractive, most men portrayed in media are attractive.

43. Domestic violence on men is under-reported, and when it is, it's treated as a joke most of the time. And is played as a joke in all sorts of media.

44. But they do demand I help carry their shit, and call me scum and a pig if I don't, even if I'm in a hurry.

45. I've had my ass grabbed in a crowd plenty of times.

45. HAHAHA! Oh wait, you're serious. That's sad. Women interrupt me all the time, act pissy, and get in my face. If I respond by cutting them off and saying that they can't pull that shit? I'm a jerk and am very quickly labeled as a bad guy but anyone who's nearby.

46. I have the burden of being thought of as privileged, when there are at least as many privileges granted to women, and treated like a misogynist anytime I become unhappy with a specific case where I've been jilted for reasons of my gender.

I cut some out and didn't respond to them, largely because I don't feel like wasting even more time finding statistics to argue the point, or because I'm less familiar with that specific issue. The only ones I cut out that I'll admit are clearly one sided for issues of gender is that unattractive women do have it much tougher than unattractive men.

In general, I think women are unaware of the double standards men face. Do women have to deal with double standards? Sure. Do they have to do so more then men? That's debatable. If it seems like I undercut an important double standard women face in my response, this is because while it may be horrible or happen often, I'm taking into account how much attention and how socially acceptable it is compared to the double standards men face. On the major things, women almost certainly face it more often then the male counterpoint on most examples, but then there's public outcry against those and they're seen a horrible almost universally in first world countries. Double standards against men are usually ignored, sometimes laughed at, and at their worst put on a fucking pedestal. This is by far the worst double standard men face. That sexism against them is somehow better or okay.

I agree that sexism against men is seen as "ok", in the same way that racism against whites can be seen as "ok", religious discrimination against Christians is "ok", and ageism against both the young and old is seen as "ok", when it clearly shouldn't be ok. That's our cross to bear I guess.

The issue is that in general, over the whole of western society, middle aged, middle class white men have it the best. Still. I've experienced a fair bit of discrimination, and God knows that women are the worst at it (in the UK, there is a phrase called "man-flu", as well as many marketing campaigns that set out to belittle and victimise men as useless and unintelligent compared to women, which irritates the fuck out of me), but we just have to accept that on average, we are still more likely to succeed.

Whether that's because of privilege or because of some innate superiority really remains to be seen, but there's no way that women are going to admit men are in any way superior to them (rightly so), so they're always going to have issue with the fact that, in their minds, we are privileged. It's a double standard, but it's the price we pay for generally have a better opportunity at life.

I do see exactly where you're coming from thoguh, and you aren't wrong. That first list is a massive load of bollocks.

oh jesus now you said it. i'm a Young, white, Catholic, American, male. i get exactly what your saying because i live with it every day. people rag on me for any one of those reasons atleast once a day.

at work mostly the hardest customers i deal with are black, Latino, or female any of which can be very difficult to deal with for many reasons, they just assume they can walk all over me just because i'm some young white guy.

school? well it used to be like that, but that was high school i haven't had enough time in college to say one way or the other.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Thanks. It never hurts to see something sane when you're feeling totally confused.

What I know of feminism basically comes from 2 sources, one being my mother (who is quite disillusioned with it and the end results of what happened in the 70's), and... Accidentally stumbling across a set of radical feminist blogs...

Now, I really should know better, but the combination of learning about feminism from these two sources has led to me having an instinctive negative gut reaction to quite a number of common things that many feminists use to illustrate various problems. (The first page of this thread for instance contains a 'male privilege checklist')

I know on a rational level that I shouldn't react like that to feminism, but over-exposure to some really hostile uses of it... (Well, it's not a rational thing. Just a gut reaction.)

So... Anything that counteracts that instinctive reaction I now have is definitely a good thing to see.

So, thanks for showing it to me.

No problem. I was lucky to be introduced to it by a friend of mine who practiced a very positive, modern feminism. And i've been turned off by some seriously hostile feminist critiques too. Although, you do realize that male privilege checklist was written by a man, right?

Lol. No, actually, I didn't. Figures.
But I only mentioned it in passing as one of a number of concepts I've seen used an adapted in various ways that remind me of all the mental baggage I've managed to pick up surrounding feminism.

 

[Osirisgod16]

I am a young white boy from Utah. In high school I maintained a 4.0 GPA and scored a 34 on the ACT. I have been refused entry to a college that my best friend, who has a 3.6 and scored a 29, has been accepted. Did I mention he's black? I believe that's discrimination against me.

 

[StarsintheBlood]

I'm female and I do agree that sexism at the moment makes both men and women suffer.

Okay, this is controversial to say, but why can't men hit girls if they hit them first? If I punched a guy in the face without provocation and he doesn't have a good reason for not punching me back (like being a pacifist or something), I'd be pissed. Men have the right to defend themselves, and I deserve enough respect to be punched. That came out wrong. Let me rephrase.

When guy gets beat up by a girl, it's almost always made to be either comical or a crowning moment of awesome (because a girl taking on a guy is just oh-so-impressive, and for a guy to get beaten is just so funny and shameful). But when a guy so much as bumps a girl too hard, everyone is against him.

Abuse is nothing to take lightly from either gender, and should be treated equally. But you'd be amazed at how many cases of female-on-male abuse- and even f/m RAPE- gets overlooked because the jury or cops just refuse to believe it. And yes, female on male abuse is quite common, it's just that there aren't nearly as many convictions. Hell, there's barely any representation of it in today's televised media. A man will get fired for sexually harassing a woman, but a woman will likely get a wag of the finger or have her flirtations be seen as cute/harmless. A man is chosen over a woman for a promotion and it's sexist, but when a woman is chosen it's progress. So while men are the primary victims of this sexism, women are also being insulted and implied to be helpless.

Plus, men can't wear women's clothing (because it's shameful to be feminine?), and they can't show affection to their male friends without people assuming their gay. Girls can hug and hold hands and be just friends, but with boys, forget it.

Alright, I'll get off my soapbox. Yes, /cultural/ sexism is primarily aimed at males in modern society, but it's also insulting women by implication. However, I have to say that /professional/ sexism is a different matter. This country is still run by men, our corporations run by men.
It's not a perfect world.

 

[The_Graff]

I wholly believe that us males do not have it as bad as women did in the previous eras.

oh really? throughout history, and yes even today, men have been called to sacrifice everything up to and including their lives for women. think about it (before responding with generic feminist diatribe) on the sinking ship, what is the call "women and children first" even placing it the other way around "children and women first" seems wrong to us. for the entirety of human history the safety and as far as possible comfort of women has been the main focus of life for most men.

think of another example (im brit, so i will focus on britain) jut before the first world war in britain we had the sufferage movement, who came known as the sufferagettes due to the main press attention being on the women involved (a great number of men were involved on the sufferage movement as the right to vote was contingent on owning a caertain acreage of land). history classes, movies and pop culture in general have remembered these a great cry for equality. and indeed equality was the main buzzword used by the women ivolved. but where were these brave champions of equality when the draft came, and british men were called to go and die in the trenches? to die for the protection of these women who were not required to defend themselves, as equals? where were the protests of these protofeminists then? where were the ladies throwing themselves at race-horses and attempting arson, or the siege of parliament for the ideal of equality in military service and risk of death?

modern accidental deaths at work figures bear this out ... women are like every other self proclaimed victim group, equal rights when it suits them, special treatment at all other times.

tl;dr: its not that long, c'mon, back to the top.

In the case of the Titanic, for example, a large number of the 1st class male passengers made it into lifeboats while a large number of the poorer women and children did not. And that was in the case of an actual attempt to let women and children go first; in a similar (later) incident the men -- who had heard of the deaths on the Titanic -- dropped their chivalry pretty quickly and the majority of survivors were able-bodied young guys, who were able to fight their way into the lifeboats. So I wouldn't exactly say that the lives of women are always valued very highly!

As for WWI, I'm pretty sure a few of those women were on the battlefield, actually, and many more stayed home to do jobs that the men who were drafted couldn't do. And how in the world was WWI about the "comfort of women"? As far as I know a bunch of men started it, a bunch of men continued it, and then a bunch of men were drafted to end it... Women didn't have a lot of political power in the early 1900s, yanno. And I wouldn't call multiple continent-spanning wars either "safe" or "comfortable" for anyone involved -- if the wellbeing of anyone was of high importance maybe (German) men wouldn't have started so much shit.

And more generally, when has there ever been a law that you can beat your husband, but only with a stick thinner than your thumb? Or that if you rape a boy he has to marry you? Or that young men cannot leave the house without a relative to escort them, or with their faces uncovered? You gonna try to pretend that men have honestly being treated as subhumanly as that, historically?

in the point i was making about world war one, i do not believe the average rifleman gave much of a shit about the size of the austro-hungarian empire or the assasination of Arch-duke ferdinand. they fought to keep their wives and families safe from invasion. also, quoting laws from wildly divergent time periods and cultures as if hey were all on the books at one time in one place is a poor argument. women in the 'western' or developed world now have greater power than men. this is not a personal opinion, it is fact. the feminism movement has allowed women to have the choice to do as they please, whilst denying this to men. if the woman wants to study and work then that is good if they want to stay at home and be supported by the study and work of a man then thats good. if she cannot pass the physical tests to join the armed forces, police, or fire service then the tests will be made easier for her; placing huge numbers of people at risk due to some members of each service being physically less able. if she wishes to she may go to a bar, tell a man she wants sex but is on the pill. trick him into making her pregnant, then decide whether she wants to destroy his freedom - by legally stealling a chunk of his pay-check every month (whilst allowng him little to no access to his own flesh and blood) or if she would rather make a false allegation of rape. then in the months leading up to the trial HIS face and name are plastered over the front page of every newspaper/news show on TV, meanwhile HER identity is treated like she is working for the secret ervice, to protect her. thats beforeyou get into the question of females being given lesser sentances for crimes tan men.

all in all, if women want equality with men (and i have never seen anything to indicate that they do) they must start reducing their own legal power and surrender their positiion as the sex that everyone bends over backwards for; and yet still remains less succesful - even with every arm of the state and public opinion bhind them women cannot compete with men hmm ... what meaning can we take away from that?

Yes, let's never forget the cases in which women lie to men (and I dunno... hide their condoms? ) in order to get pregnant and have a billion babies and steal all their money and then claim they were raped so they can get the guy sent to jail (at which point he can't actually pay her child sup--DOESN'T MATTER!) and then join the military and fail all the tests and then get our whole damn country invaded by Nazis (but...but there aren't any Na--SHHHHH!!) and then go on trial for treason but go free because vaginas is why! OH GOD THE WOMEN ARE STEALING OUR MANLY ESSENCES! HIDE YOUR DICKS! HIDE YO--

...Oh, sorry, excuse me, I got caught up in all the batshit crazy paranoia into which your comment quickly descended.

you know, just once i would like to see one of these threads where the women responded to contrary viewpoints with neither sarcasm or accusations of mental illness. it would really be nice to engage in an honest exchange of opinion without one side saying "HURR DUUR UR STOOOOPID!!!!1111" if you disagree with me present a calmly worded response, which does not include accusations of insanity, if you can summon up the politeness.