Sexism, Racism and Gay Oppression in Games is a GOOD Thing
- Thread starter Abomination
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We shouldn't ignore them, but we shouldn't glorify them in games or reinforce out-dated stereotypes.
Sexism, racism, and homophobia are not good things and should be not portrayed in a positive light. They are facts of life, but they are ugly facts of life. Exploring them and showing that they do indeed exist and they have consequences is a far cry from exploiting them and reinforcing stereotypes. Like one of the other posters said, there's a difference between a character being gay and a character being gay because being gay is just so funny, so lets laugh at the gay people.
Then there's people who seem to want to see rape in games because movies and books have it. That's all well and good to ask for equality across mediums, but if you want a game that tackles the topic of rape, don't expect to be able to find it on store shelves because that's gonna get an A/O rating in a hurry. Because of that, we have games like Tomb Raider which, to paraphrase the developer, allude to rape as a means to dis-empower the protagonist so the big burly male player wants to protect the fragile woman. Rape is an incredibly difficult topic to tackle tastefully and it rarely is.
Someone talked about Game of Thrones and how frequent it happens in that show, but Game of Thrones does it for shock-value and exploitation. It is not handled well and frankly given the quality of most game writing, I don't think there's people talented enough to do it working in this industry nor do I think gamers are mature enough to handle it I say this especially after the recent DMC game which has god awful writing and characterization but popular consensus seems to be "It's fun, so I don't care." Why bother trying to tackle really dark and controversial material if the vast majority of the gamers don't care about anything beyond "is the game-play fun?"
And while some people may cry for realism in games were women are oppressed or are limited, here's the thing, as a woman, I want to play a woman if the game allows me that option and it IS sexist if the game actively makes my experiences more difficult or restricted because I play the gender I actually am. If I paid $60 for the game, I should have access to the same experience my brother paid $60 for.
Sexism, racism, and homophobia are not good things and should be not portrayed in a positive light. They are facts of life, but they are ugly facts of life. Exploring them and showing that they do indeed exist and they have consequences is a far cry from exploiting them and reinforcing stereotypes. Like one of the other posters said, there's a difference between a character being gay and a character being gay because being gay is just so funny, so lets laugh at the gay people.
Then there's people who seem to want to see rape in games because movies and books have it. That's all well and good to ask for equality across mediums, but if you want a game that tackles the topic of rape, don't expect to be able to find it on store shelves because that's gonna get an A/O rating in a hurry. Because of that, we have games like Tomb Raider which, to paraphrase the developer, allude to rape as a means to dis-empower the protagonist so the big burly male player wants to protect the fragile woman. Rape is an incredibly difficult topic to tackle tastefully and it rarely is.
Someone talked about Game of Thrones and how frequent it happens in that show, but Game of Thrones does it for shock-value and exploitation. It is not handled well and frankly given the quality of most game writing, I don't think there's people talented enough to do it working in this industry nor do I think gamers are mature enough to handle it I say this especially after the recent DMC game which has god awful writing and characterization but popular consensus seems to be "It's fun, so I don't care." Why bother trying to tackle really dark and controversial material if the vast majority of the gamers don't care about anything beyond "is the game-play fun?"
And while some people may cry for realism in games were women are oppressed or are limited, here's the thing, as a woman, I want to play a woman if the game allows me that option and it IS sexist if the game actively makes my experiences more difficult or restricted because I play the gender I actually am. If I paid $60 for the game, I should have access to the same experience my brother paid $60 for.
I agree with you, games cannot reach the next artistic level if they do not start (or continue for a few exceptions) to tackle the darker sides of the human psyche.
That said there is a difference between a game containing the theme of racism and a game being racist.
I really like the way the Elder Scrolls tackles the different races, the empire, which represents to a certain extend a more civilized, heterogeneous society is accepting of all races but the Dunmer of Morrowind a)Still practise slavery and b) ever so often your character will receive some remark on your race.
The slavery really worked and fleshed out the world for me, it made it seem much more plausible. It also created gameplay for me as I would go to every plantation and kill any guards and free slaves.
That said there is a difference between a game containing the theme of racism and a game being racist.
I really like the way the Elder Scrolls tackles the different races, the empire, which represents to a certain extend a more civilized, heterogeneous society is accepting of all races but the Dunmer of Morrowind a)Still practise slavery and b) ever so often your character will receive some remark on your race.
The slavery really worked and fleshed out the world for me, it made it seem much more plausible. It also created gameplay for me as I would go to every plantation and kill any guards and free slaves.
Well said. Although this is a painfully obvious point and shouldn't need to be said, I rather suspect it does.Entitled said:
Meh. The problem there was pretty obvious, I think. Assailants are all women? That's fine. Silly, but fine. Assailants are disguised as nuns? That's fine. Hyper violence? It's a murder game, that's fine, or at the very least to be expected. Assailants are all inexplicably in sexy bondage gear? Hmm.Abomination said:
It's not a question of violence against women. Plenty of games have violence against female characters and no one makes a peep. Fallouts in particular are fairly notorious for gender equality when it comes to murderin'. When the female victims are bizarrely, pointlessly sexualized and THEN murdered, eyebrows get raised. And rightfully so.
You know what would've made that Hitman trailer alright? Juvenile, but alright? If it had taken place in a bondage/sex club, and EVERYONE was wearing ridiculous sexy getup, including the Hitman.
Seriously though, IO knew what they were about when they made that trailer. These were the same guys behind the "beautifully executed" ads, after all. I think it was just calculated marketing through controversy. I'm not sure that makes it admirable, and you can argue it's exactly the kind of dipshit maneuver that promotes tiresome attacks on the industry from morally outraged pundits. But at least we know why.
If you really want this, you're going to want more "Walking Dead" and "To the Moon" and "Spec Ops: The Line", and less sexy-nun-murder-extravaganza. There's a place in every industry for utter tosh, and there's no rule that says gamers can't enjoy ribald or stupid or offensive entertainment. It would be nice, though, if it was the exception, rather than the rule. If sex and violence were in the story because it was an adult story and it brushed up against those elements from time to time, not that those elements were shoehorned in to make for an "adult" experience. Even high quality "mature" experiences like the Witcher games often stray into "LOOK, TITTIES!" or "OMG HE SAID COCKSUCKER THIS IS ADULT" territory way too often to be considered sophisticated works of art. Most gaming, or at the very least most mainstream gaming, is on par with pornography or direct-to-DVD crap in terms of artistic integrity. Which is to say it has none, and it's not even trying. All of the art and skill is put into the systems and game play, and nothing is spared for the plotting or thematic content. Which is fine if you consider gaming to be a distinct medium with no shared qualities with more traditional media like film or literature, to be judged solely on its mechanical merit. Much in the same way you might judge the efficacy of a tool, or admire the craftsmanship that goes into the engine of a car. If you're looking for the more colloquially understood definition of art, though...commentary on the human condition, or communication of emotion, or elucidation of complex thematic material...then gaming has a long fucking way to go.Abomination said:
I wouldnt mind if video games explored this subjects, but video games have notoriously shitty writing. Look at TOR, one of the most expensive games ever made, one of its main selling points was it has "story." It's hard to tackle real subjects in a traditionally juvenille medium like gaming. Can it be done? Sure, but for every Walking Dead game you have a dozen or so Deep Silver zombie torsos.
Its a far cry different then having a criticism against exploitative practices in the industry. Its one thing to have a narrative to have themes about racism, sexism, and gender oppression, its entirely another to actually engage in such.
Sadly video games either address them in a very very shallow way (gender/sexual oppression for the sake of 'realism') or not at all. Overall most games are shallow and exploitative, that is a problem because it only encourages it to continue if no one speaks up about it.
Sadly video games either address them in a very very shallow way (gender/sexual oppression for the sake of 'realism') or not at all. Overall most games are shallow and exploitative, that is a problem because it only encourages it to continue if no one speaks up about it.
Games about racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. are not the same thing as games that just *are* sexist, racist, homophobic, etc.
Of course the former aren't a problem, if they're handled well. The issue is when it's the latter. For example, the recent Dead Island thing wasn't a comment on the sexualisation of violence and objectification of women, it was something that sexualised violence and objectified women.
Of course the former aren't a problem, if they're handled well. The issue is when it's the latter. For example, the recent Dead Island thing wasn't a comment on the sexualisation of violence and objectification of women, it was something that sexualised violence and objectified women.
God, that title had me worried for a second.
All of those topics are hard to tackle tastefully. It's easy to write a character that's sexist, or racist, or whatever. But it's hard to make it matter. Why does the character think lowly of women, or another race? Just because? Or is it because all of his life he was raised in a conservative family? Maybe his experiences on his own have slowly begun opening his eyes to the weaknesses of his beliefs, yet he still clings to them because he was raised that way. Point is, I'd rather have an actual reason for that character having his beliefs rather than just to have them.
I agree with Skyrim being a good example. The Nords were pretty racist. That was pretty much the point of the civil war, a main quest in the game. But it never felt gratuitous. It was simply part of the lore, part of their history. It made sense for them to be racist. They never said whether it was good or not though. You could side with Nords in the Civil War, or you could fight them. You could be racist/sexist/generally hateful yourself. Or you didn't have to. You had a choice. That's what matters to me, the choice. People will get mad if you force them to be racist. They'll say it's the devs forcing them to do something they don't belive in, and cry out one of the -isms. But if you offer them a choice that makes sense within the world, you really can't get mad.
All in all, don't avoid the topics, but don't just shove them in there for no reason. Yay rant!
All of those topics are hard to tackle tastefully. It's easy to write a character that's sexist, or racist, or whatever. But it's hard to make it matter. Why does the character think lowly of women, or another race? Just because? Or is it because all of his life he was raised in a conservative family? Maybe his experiences on his own have slowly begun opening his eyes to the weaknesses of his beliefs, yet he still clings to them because he was raised that way. Point is, I'd rather have an actual reason for that character having his beliefs rather than just to have them.
I agree with Skyrim being a good example. The Nords were pretty racist. That was pretty much the point of the civil war, a main quest in the game. But it never felt gratuitous. It was simply part of the lore, part of their history. It made sense for them to be racist. They never said whether it was good or not though. You could side with Nords in the Civil War, or you could fight them. You could be racist/sexist/generally hateful yourself. Or you didn't have to. You had a choice. That's what matters to me, the choice. People will get mad if you force them to be racist. They'll say it's the devs forcing them to do something they don't belive in, and cry out one of the -isms. But if you offer them a choice that makes sense within the world, you really can't get mad.
All in all, don't avoid the topics, but don't just shove them in there for no reason. Yay rant!
As mentioned before, but evidently not enough, there's a big difference between portraying a problem and having a problem. Yes, hamfisted depictions only end up looking a lot like the second, and the second often pretends it's the first, but it's very dishonest to claim that's the only thing going on.
Yeah, no, I'm going to call you a complete asshole for saying they should In a MMORPG yes being a racist Orc will work that is forgiving on a RP server for the sake if not breaking character that works because its really isn't them its a character they though up and that's how he speaks I can get that. However when my girlfriend leaves a Halo match in tears because of the sexist assholes who tell her dirty thing they want to do to her and that she sucks at the game mainly for her gender is the moment I call you a fucking ass!
I don't quite think you've got the jist of it. Players hurling abuse at your significant other has nothing to do with the game. There is nothing in Halo even remotely sexis- okay maybe the hologram lady losing more and more of her holographic clothing and her holographic figure becoming more appealing is the exception but the SETTING of how women are treated appears to be completely equal opportunity, especially in the military.Leoofmoon said:
And that makes perfect sense for a future society of a non-distopian future.