SEXISM! What's with the standards?

[ItsAChiaotzu]

I'm not contesting that he's wrong. I'm saying his position lacks any serious support. He's jumping to conclusions about society as a whole and I'm calling him out on that.

You do realize that every time anybody says anything based on any effect society has ever had on any opinion they could possibly form about society, they're coming to conclusions about society as a whole?

You think I give a fuck?

I say just about every human on the planet has experience with the double standard of sexism because almost every human being on the planet DOES have experience with the double standard of sexism...

Assumption. Also says nothing of magnitude, which does matter unless you want to talk about petty things.

There are astonishingly few people in the world unaffected by sexism, and they're usually monks or hermits of some kind.

Ah yes, back to trusting in the wisdom of someone who has show none.

If you interact with society, you will be affected by sexism's double standard. I can guarantee you that.

Empty guarantee.

Ok, sorry, I've been reading this whole thing and I know it's a total waste of my time to even leave this comment but I can't resist. I agree with you. However, why are such an arrogant dick about it? How difficult is it to be polite? I contend that it isn't as difficult as your posts seem to imply.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm not talking about exclusion but that is a problem that should be addressed.

I'm talking about ratios.

There are more male managers than female managers (Source: BBC news today at 9AM) and feminists are fighting for more women to have these jobs so they feel it is fairer.

Why are there no campaigns to take menial jobs too like mining and sanitation that tend to be male dominated.

Managerial positions and mining jobs don't exclude women but they only fight for more representation for one.

I'm just using those 2 as an example, there are of course far more jobs.

There are campaigns to do that. The difference between exclusion and ratios isn't always that big, if the pressure to exclude certain groups isn't all that big.

Mining seems to be a big example, at least in my country, there are continuing moves to get rid of the idea that it's a male only field, with some success, but there is still a way to go.

1. Equality is a term that is thrown around, often times in situations that are anything but equal. To me it seems that overall, most people don't actually know what equality is. What I see all the time isn't equality, it is race- and sexism. The problem is that apparently alot of people don't acknowledge it as such if the benefactor is a minortiy. In other words, most of what I see, without being active in any specific community dealing with such issues, is far more giving women and minorities advantages. That is not equal and since it is rather obvious that that isn't equal if you think about it, I can't really go and say that feminists promote equality. If they did I'd agree with you, I however have nothing to make me believe that.

They might have a different view of equality to you, that's not necessarily the same thing.

More or less anything done to deal with inequality might look like inequality, depending on your PoV. If B is less than A, if bring B up to A's level, you've increased B and not A, which might seem to be unfair.

It isn't about giving minorities advantages, it's about things directed at them to take away unfair advantages.

2. Even if I do something and it benefits someone else, that does not mean it was my intention. My intention was still to help myself, someone else benefitting was merely a side effect. If that is the case, it cannot be argued in my case that the other person ultimately benefitted, it wasn't my concern, thus it should not be a bonus for me when judging my negatives.

Assuming that the sole intent was to benefit yourself, with no thought of the consequences, than yes. If you are trying to benefit yourself and you look at the results it'll have on others, and decide that as it'd be a net gain for everyone it's acceptable, that's another matter.

Secondly, And I know I'm generalising here, but most feminists aren't living in a vacuum devoid of men. The desire to help men with their gender issues may or may not be part of feminism (there's a long argument there), but it certainly isn't anathema to it, the way being a member of a black rights movement doesn't mean you have to hate all other races.

I don't believe feminists are feminazis. I believe that feminazis are the ones we hear and that the silence of feminists tells much.

Flippantly, I'd say it tells me that you don't listen to many feminists. The feminist movement will absolutely condemn extremists, or anyone else, over any excuse whatsoever.

Generalising again, but feminists (like any number of similar groups) seem to spend as much time fighting each other over slight disagreements than they do fighting against people oppressing them. It's like that bit if Life of Brian about them all struggling together.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

The Male Privilege Checklist

Told myself I would do this the next time someone posted that irritating list, and I?m no liar. So?

Spoiler: The Female Privilege Checklist

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against male applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more social the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won't think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true.
3. If I am never promoted, I can file suit against the company for gender discrimination.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can use my sex as an excuse.
5. Sexual harassment claims I make are taken seriously.
6. If I do the same task as a man, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
7. My odds of going to prison are drastically superior to men.
8. I am taught that I have nothing to fear from my own gender.
9. If I choose not to have children, I have several options to support that decision.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my independence will not be called into question.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I'll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I'm even marginally competent.
12. If I have children and a career, I will be looked up to and idolized by my peers.
13. If I seek political office, I do not have to worry about perpetuating relationship scandals, if I?m even married.
14. My elected representatives will always fight for my genders rights.
15. When I ask to see "the person in charge," odds are my concerns will be met with more seriousness.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more creative and social.
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive support for my gender that didn?t involve defeating another member of my own gender in a violent struggle for dominance.
18. As a child, chances are I received more positive feedback and less punishment for behavioral expressions.
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I can excuse it away with gender related undertones.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.
21. I am more likely to receive financial support in my life.
22. I will pay less overall to drive than my male counterparts; even if they have a better driving record.
23. I will be asked to speak in public to a large group because of my sex.
24. My sexuality is a sought after commodity.
25. I can appropriately dress how I choose to express my sexuality without being considered a pervert.
26. The vast majority of the fashion community exists to serve my genders unique body shapes and sizes.
27. There is an entire industry dedicated to my grooming needs.
28. If I buy a new car, my insurance rates will be drastically reduced compared to men.
29. If I'm not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called an asshole. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a rapist.
31. My interests in legislated violence are more important than men?s; as such I receive greater protections and programs to protect my gender.
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will not discriminate against my gender.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will always be touted as superior to men?s.
34. If my marriage fails, I will never be considered at fault.
35. The decision to hire me might be required by regulation.
36. Every major religion in the world holds more esteem and reverence toward femininity.
37. I do not have to believe in any religion that requires me subservience to another gender.
38. I can always be assured that I will not be required to fix anything in my household or perform any heavy labor.
39. If I have children with my boyfriend or husband, I can expect him to provide financially for our family.
40. I have enough options where I do not have to sacrifice education or employment if I also want a family.
41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of athletic-clean cut men intended to appeal to me sexually, mentally and emotionally. Men do not get the benefit of the later two.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be physically strong than my male counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat men do.
43. If I am heterosexual, it's incredibly unlikely that I'll ever be beaten up by a peer or my own gender in general.
44. I am more likely to have complete strangers walk up to me on the street and start a conversation.
45. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being mistaken for sexually harassing anyone or making men uncomfortable by my very presence.
45. On average, I have more social connections then men.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my female privilege.

You might notice some of them didn't change much; because they didn't need to. I had thought about individually responding to each one, but I saw someone else do that once and he was promptly torn to shreds for suggesting an alternative notion. So instead, I made an equally absurd list of notions that require a subjective viewpoint. All of which, are as equally true as the originals.

All's fair in equality right? Feel free to spread it around.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I can't say it often enough. It's not a matter of opinion. It's simply a matter of who is right and who is wrong. If people want to use the term equality anyway, they should change the definition. If they can't do that, they'll have to deal with me pointing out that they are wrong.

Hey? How does changing things to make different groups more equal not fit the teh definiton of working towards equality?

Irrelevant. The benefits of others can only come into play if I actively choose another route as to secure the benefits of others. If it is simply a side effect, no amount of prior knowledge changes my intentions. I may coincidentally saved your life, I still however just meant to catch that train, whilst you can thank me, I'd feel like a shithead if others were to pretend that saving you had ever been my intention, rightfully so I might add. In other words, coincidence is a coincidence is a coincidence. Only actions can illustrate, this theoretical situation atleast does not.

I don't believe that the effects upon others is going to play no part whatsoever in the decision making process, but I'm willing to concede that point.

I haven't spoken of hate. I've spoken of indifference, which as I'm sure you know can be equally if not more so damaging.

Indifference then. There's no reason to assume that because a person cares about someone's issues, they won't care about someone else's, though this is the case rather more often than it should be.

I think you misunderstood what I am saying, or to be more precise, whom I am speaking of. I made it rather clear that I do not visit any feminists sites unless I, at that specific moment in time, have a good reason too. I'd be willing to wager that the same could be said about most people in this Thread. These are also ultimately the people I am refering too. The people in this very Thread that proclaim themselves feminists. They are the apologists. A normal person isn't going to be exposed to any of these things outside of specific situations like this Thread. It should be perfectly clear that what most people see when feminists are brought up ARE the Feminazis, the crazy ones, because they are what is shown. So, yes, the position is inherently biased, like most things. The deal, people should realize that and instead of taking offense as self-proclaimed feminists, treat the situation properly and realize that if you aren't batshit insane, people aren't talking about you. Instead, what I commonly see is a bunch of self-proclaimed feminists trying to justify the movement as a whole and using worse and worse arguments in the process of doing so. Ultimately it all ends in one big clusterfuck.

Ah, ok, I see what you mean. I don't agree with "if you aren't batshit insane, people aren't talking about you", though, or at least not fully. Many people, including people in this thread, do believe that all feminists are hopelessly/dangerously deluded, that at best it was once useful but has won all its victories and should now be discarded, or at worst that it was never anything more than a conspiracy to oppress men.

Some people might say "I don't mean all ____, just the ones that _____" and some of them might mean it, but many people don't.

 

[intheweeds]

... Was just trying to point out that from a purely Sociological standpoint that Radical Feminism refers to the extremist section of the Feminism movement when compared to the Liberal and Conservative Feminists (To name but a few variations) Movements.

It was me being a tad pedantic, looking back over my post I do however come off as a bit of a dick.

Well, I appreciate your apology. After reading your further comments to others here, it would appear to be a true misunderstanding. We would seem to be in agreement about these issues.

Anyway, this poster was in so many feminists that I've known's houses. This is what feminism is really about guys!
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/intheweeds78/gender_subversion_front.jpg
No one is trying to 'get one up' on anyone here. Some people just think the gender stereotypes are harmful to EVERYONE.

 

[Thaluikhain]

2. It's situational. For instance, if Men had scholarships open to them that women generally don't have, it would be fair to abolish the advantage the men have, that would be equality. Opening the Scholarship to women would also be equality. Do you know what wouldn't be equality? Creating a polar opposite Scholarship just for women. Do you know why that wouldn't be equality?

Because despite their now being a Scholarship for each Gender, they are at best equal at face value. To be Equal the winners would have to be the same. Neither could be any better or worse then their opposite. So imagine it turns out that not only is the winner of the female scholarship better then her male counterpart, her runner up was also better then he is. Or take the whole situation and flip it around. Either way, a person more qualified is now fucked because someone thought that was fair. What makes this all the more alarming is that minority exclusive scholarships for instance are abundant while as to my knowledge, no counterpart exists. Thus, it has already moved beyond any hope of creating equality and has gone over to a complete shift.

Of course there are specific scholarships for members of minority groups, but not for the majority, the point was to somewhat balance the trend against minorities. Again, if you are trying to deal with existing inequalities, you have to affect some groups more than others.

Yes, things like that, in of themselves, won't actually bring about equality. But IMHO, that's not a fair test. The question is whether it will make things closer to equality. If you have to take away some advantages to take larger disadvantages to someone else, that sucks for certain people, but it's a net gain.

The question is:

Why do you believe it would play any role?

Ofcourse their is reason. It probably isn't a good reason for you, but it works fine for me. I find it better to assume that people don't really care because, well, it tends to turn out to be that way most of the time, so why kid myself into thinking otherwise?

Based on my experiences with feminism, there's far too many that look no further than their own interests, yes, but a massive amount that don't, and more that try not to.

I'd absolutely agree with them. Well, ok, not about the crazy conspiracy part, but I would agree that feminism has outstayed it's welcome. If not because the major battles are long since fought and won, then simply because the name has so many negatives attached to it that they'd be well advised in losing it either way.

The opponents of feminism would ensure those negatives continued no matter what they called it. Changing the names around every so often hasn't worked for anyone else.

The thing is, I see no reason to speak of feminism when we are apparently all aware that no one group exclusively has to deal with these problems. Small specific groups do nothing but distort the bigger picture considering how all these issues are intertwined. Are women worse off then men? Maybe? I guess? I've never been both so I don't feel that I can accurately judge. Do women have societal problems? YES! Do men have societal problems? YES! So, wait, why are we concentrating on the women then? That can only lead to us just fucking things up in a different way.

Who is concentrating on women? Why does someone being involved in the cause of women's rights automatically disqualify them from all the other right's issues?

Any number of groups need people to defend their rights, but they won't all be faced with the same problems, and so their movements will have to be handled differently.

Yes, I agree, ______'s rights are human rights, a fact that very often gets overlooked. But in practice, bringing a group's rights issues into the fold, so to speak, before they've actually obtained them does little more than make them a minority in their own right's movement. The sole reason for minority's running their own rights groups is because the majority isn't interested, otherwise they'd be no reason. You hear endless complaints by black women that they aren't listened to in black or feminist groups for being women or black respectively, for example.

Also, I ask you to point out who in this thread is in your eyes a misogynist and why. Maybe I'll agree with you, maybe not. But personally I know that people tend to become more adamant in their beliefs when they are challenged.

That would be against the forums rules. It's fine to express misogynistic opinions, it's not ok to call up individual posters on it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The opponents of feminism would ensure those negatives continued no matter what they called it. Changing the names around every so often hasn't worked for anyone else.

I assumed it would go without saying that they would have to drop all the stupid shit in the process.

If you honestly believe that it's exclusively, or even primarily, the fault of feminists that they've portrayed the way they have, I think I'm done here.

 

[Darius Brogan]

OP if you were a witness to the event why didn't you give evidence in court?

I specifically stated in an earlier comment that I did, but it didn't make any difference. My apologies that I left it out of the OP, it was really early in the morning at the time.

 

[Darius Brogan]

Oh, look, a sexist *****.

Validating my OP, much?

Men deal with Sexism just as often as women, and if you can't face that fact, it's your own problem.

Wow, not only does he call people bitches if they disagree with him...


I'm a dude, genius.

My mother and sister are both feminists, as well as my first girlfriend.

So you allowed them to talk back? Wow.

You have a problem with being called what you are? I don't use gender specific anything in my life.
You're acting like a *****, female dog: Whining, complaining, etc... The only female implication is that of the animals own gender, not your own. But hey, assumptions abound in this world of ours.

'So you allowed them to talk back?' What the hell does that mean? What kind of control do I have over anything they do?
How completely filled with ignorance are you, to take such an instant, and obvious, hatred of my opinion?

What is it about it, other than its lack of specifics, that you hate so much?

I have serious problems with women bitching about sexism, while ignoring that it's a two-way street. Does that imply I'm against women, at all? No.

What special kind of ignorant are you, that my opinion is wrong, despite being neutral? Am I supposed to post ten miles of text explaining why I posted only the points I had in mind, as opposed to every foreseeable instance of sexism from both gender fronts specifically in avoidance of wannabe psychiatrists like you who assume you can gauge my entire thought processes via a single, rather short, post?

All my points are valid, and true, and none of them point to anything otherwise.

>Women get the benefit of the doubt in the majority of situations, for no immediately apparent reason.

>Men cannot be anything other than stereotypically macho, or they've got problems.

I'm tired of you, and people like you, claiming some form of moral high-ground and insulting me for what amounts to an opinion, and completely proving every one of my points right at the same time. It's irritating to be looked down upon by those so lost in ignorance that they can't even see they just validated my entire point.

I'm done here, my thread or not, I expected more from this community. Guess my hopes were a few miles too high.

 

[Darius Brogan]

So, yeah. The fact that you don't really have very many details at all, and are giving us a highly editorialized, telephone-game version of events, as speculated, is pertinent information.

Not to mention that from later comments we can clearly deduce that he is extremely misogynistic and antagonistic towards women's rights. Boys crying on the internet because of perceived victimization towards their precious lives = me loling forever. Chuck some peanuts and move along.

How, exactly, did you get that from anything I've said?

Or did you actually think I voiced my entire opinion on everything revolving around women/feminism/rights/anything... in one forum, in response to comments?

Am I crying by pointing something out? Hardly.

It sickens me that this is supposed to be a place for intelligent discussion. It really does.

 

[Darius Brogan]

in turn I can tell you of a friend of mine, she got forcefully dragged into a cellar, beaten and raped, then he finished by spraying his semen over her, took a picture with his phone and then left her bleeding, naked and crying.
he went free with the excuse that he had gotten over excited while making out with her, and that there had been no sex and that she did everything willfully and had the scrapes and bruises was from falling.

the police had gather fool proof evidence, but that does not matter, in most cases of sexual harassment and rape the victim loses.

justice is random, sometimes you'll have it sometimes you wont, and yes it sucks.

Despite assumptions, I'm not focusing on a single instance, I'm pointing out a double standard. Nothing more.

I'm well aware of the issues women have to deal with, my roommates ex recently got raped by her own roommate. I'm not ignoring anything that a goodly ***** of this forum assumes I am, I'm simply curious as to why the sexism spot-light is almost entirely focused on women.

If there is a problem with that, I guess I missed the memo noting such.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Biases in sexual harassment cases are bad, but they have nothing on what happens with domestic violence and rape. The degree people are willing to go to deny any evidence (and there are a mountain of peer reviewed studies showing parity) of male victims, especially male victims of women, is simply staggering. As a victim of child abuse by female social workers, I have first hand experience with just how far the "equality" in these areas extends. Far from receiving help and support, I was told to apologize to my abusers because they held me down and beat me for hours on end and sent back to endure more of their abuse for over a decade. Like it or not, feminism has played a big role in these attitudes and policies. The terminology and ideas which form the foundation of modern feminist thought originated with radical second wave groups like the Red Stockings, and those groups formed an entirely unabashed hate movement, explicitly advocating female supremacy and male disposability in addition to assaulting the early gay rights movement (on the grounds that male homosexuality represented a patriarchal reaction to feminism and an effort on the part of men to abdicate their responsibilities to support and care for women). Their ideas and creeds remain in full effect within the upper echelons of organized and academic feminism and the political influence of these people has codified parts of their toxic belief system into law (for example: as a result of arrest quotas with no relation to the actual incidence rates of abuse and "primary aggressor" laws, a man who suffers domestic abuse is more likely to be arrested than to be protected). I think it is also important to notice the resounding silence that greeted a shocking revelation last year, when a large number of prominent feminist leaders, CEOs and educators were outed for having advocated and continuing to advocate forced eugenics and the systematic murder of men behind closed doors (these allegations were supported by a body of conclusive evidence and documentation).

That's a very sad tale... I feel for ya man. Did you ever do anything about it when you got older? Did they ever get any punishment? And has that whole ordeal changed you? (I ask cause my friend sorta experienced something like this, and it created such a fucking demon inside of him)

 

[Fertro]

Sexism seems to only apply when men do it. Because, y'know, there are NO issues with the male sex at all(!).

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Biases in sexual harassment cases are bad, but they have nothing on what happens with domestic violence and rape. The degree people are willing to go to deny any evidence (and there are a mountain of peer reviewed studies showing parity) of male victims, especially male victims of women, is simply staggering. As a victim of child abuse by female social workers, I have first hand experience with just how far the "equality" in these areas extends. Far from receiving help and support, I was told to apologize to my abusers because they held me down and beat me for hours on end and sent back to endure more of their abuse for over a decade. Like it or not, feminism has played a big role in these attitudes and policies. The terminology and ideas which form the foundation of modern feminist thought originated with radical second wave groups like the Red Stockings, and those groups formed an entirely unabashed hate movement, explicitly advocating female supremacy and male disposability in addition to assaulting the early gay rights movement (on the grounds that male homosexuality represented a patriarchal reaction to feminism and an effort on the part of men to abdicate their responsibilities to support and care for women). Their ideas and creeds remain in full effect within the upper echelons of organized and academic feminism and the political influence of these people has codified parts of their toxic belief system into law (for example: as a result of arrest quotas with no relation to the actual incidence rates of abuse and "primary aggressor" laws, a man who suffers domestic abuse is more likely to be arrested than to be protected). I think it is also important to notice the resounding silence that greeted a shocking revelation last year, when a large number of prominent feminist leaders, CEOs and educators were outed for having advocated and continuing to advocate forced eugenics and the systematic murder of men behind closed doors (these allegations were supported by a body of conclusive evidence and documentation).

That's a very sad tale... I feel for ya man. Did you ever do anything about it when you got older? Did they ever get any punishment? And has that whole ordeal changed you? (I ask cause my friend sorta experienced something like this, and it created such a fucking demon inside of him)

There's nothing I can do. Social workers move around so much that it would be impossible for me to even find them all, let alone press charges, and gendered double-standards on violence (the justification of difference in average strength is demonstrably false under any kind of scrutiny, violence against men and boys is just normalized in our society and violence by women is erased) mean that I would have a very hard time finding anyone sympathetic to my case in the criminal justice system. The ordeal definitely changed me in a lot of ways, probably the most severe of which were making me profoundly uncomfortable with any form of physical contact and unwilling to trust others in more than a business capacity, but I am doing my best to accept what I am and build a life for myself. My experiences have left me with a conviction that I want to stop the same thing from happening to others, which is why I devote so much time to challenging biased social debunking the common myths and misinformation about gender and violence. I hope your friend is able to achieve some form of healing.