Sexy fantasy armor...

[GundamSentinel]

Jesus fucking Christ, are you seriously defending perverted game designers that want to see a fat butt in skin tight trousers? I'm sorry, but I don't see anything artistic in that.

What? Because a fat butt in skin tight trousers is evil and perverted and we should be ashamed of even looking at something like that?

I completely agree on the subject of variety, there should be more than just fat butts in skin tight trousers, a healthy diversity of all kinds of characters in gaming.

But that's not the same as saying that fat butts in skin tight trousers should just go away and the people interested should just watch porn instead. Perverted game designers shouldn't need any defending because there's nothing wrong with fat butts in skin tight trousers. There's nothing wrong with sexuality, even if not particularly deep or complex, just fat butts in skin tight trousers.

What we need is more variety and diversity. What we don't need is whining because other people happen to like thing you don't like.

This highlights my problem with people who condemn sexualized characters. Those characters are not the problem. Sexuality is not wrong or evil. The problem starts when basically every female character is protrayed that way. When developers are afraid to promote good female characters because they think it might hurt sales (like the Bioshock Infinite box art nonsense). And when developers start having a very wrong idea of what actually is considered attractive by their audience.

And, on the other hand, when a lot of gamers start violently defending such sexualized characters, like the ridiculous backlash people like Sarkeesian arouse. As long as sex objects sell, they won't go away. Chainmail bikinis will oontinue to exist so long as there are people who like looking at them. So what do they have to lose if there are women are portrayed differently as well? Nothing. Variety is key.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So what do they have to lose if there are women are portrayed differently as well?

Being catered to to the exclusion of others. That's a very comfortable thing, and gets important to too many people.

 

[JarinArenos]

This highlights my problem with people who condemn sexualized characters. Those characters are not the problem. Sexuality is not wrong or evil. The problem starts when basically every female character is protrayed that way. When developers are afraid to promote good female characters because they think it might hurt sales (like the Bioshock Infinite box art nonsense). And when developers start having a very wrong idea of when actually is considered attractive by their audience.

And, on the other hand, when a lot of gamers start violently defending such sexualized characters, like the ridiculous backlash people like Sarkeesian arouse. As long as sex objects sell, they won't go away. Chainmail bikinis will continue to exist so long as there are people who like looking at them. So what do they have to lose if there are women are portrayed differently as well? Nothing. Variety is key.

This. This right here. I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for people to understand. It seems that, like in politics, internet debates gravitate to the extremes, ignoring rationality in favor of yelling from opposite mountaintops. Is there a problem with how women are displayed in games? Certainly. Is the solution to paint every sexy character as evil incarnate? No, that's pants-on-head retarded. The goal is to have more characters that appeal to different sorts of gamers, not to cater exclusively to one side or the other.

Right now, we have straight male gamers being catered to almost exclusively; this is a problem. Arguing against this isn't (or shouldn't be) arguing for the exact opposite. On the flipside, people who like what current games look like need to quit feeling like they're under attack when people complain about it. People liking skimpy armor and sexy designs isn't the problem. Devs making nothing else IS.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Can you guys show me these chainmail bokini girls? Because if it's as prevalent as you say, how come I saw nada at E3?

 

[Karadalis]

Sexy silly armor isnt made for fighting...

It is made for leaders to raise the morale of the troops!


Seriously thought i dont mind some form fitting armor even if metall boobs are silly, however when there are huge gaps in the armor to show off cleavage or tights or the belly then it just outright gets silly... especialy if the male variant is fully covered in armor to boot.

Robes and cloth "armor" however can look as sexy and revealing as it wants... it doesnt really have any physical protection value to begin with.

Also to the people harping on about "chainmail bikinis"...

You guys should realize that those havent been around in western RPGs for a looooooong time. Last time i saw that nonsense was in WoW and that game is over a decade old by now.

Most of the current examples can only be found in asian titles... especialy the f2p MMO genre sometimes gets reaaaaaly creepy with some of their designs.

But then again its japan... you know... the place where god invested all the rest of the random crazyness.

Thing is the female populace of japan doesnt seem to mind one bit this overly sexualized presentation of their gender.. atleast i havent heard about any big womens rights organisations or even japan feminists speaking out about this issue the west seems to have with overly sexualised characters.

 

[yundex]

Thing is the female populace of japan doesnt seem to mind one bit this overly sexualized presentation of their gender.. atleast i havent heard about any big womens rights organisations or even japan feminists speaking out about this issue the west seems to have with overly sexualised characters.

Neither does china from what i've seen over there, and i've said this before but western women don't seem to have a problem with it either. The only people i'm aware of who seem to care are liberal white males and radical feminists, who are so small a minority that they can and continue to be ignored. If i'm wrong than please show me, i'd like to get to the bottom of this!

 

[Dansen]

[spoiler = "large image"]

[/spoiler]

Smexy, classy, practical armor, and a total BAMF. No reason for it to look like it's worn by a stripper, I can get the appeal though but their is no real need for it. I often find such excessively "titillating" armor to be detracting from the game or whatever.

Ill disagree, The armor design is almost perfect except that for some reason the creator felt that she should be wearing a dress. A dress is not practical at all, since it impedes movement. To me personally it ruins the character they set up. This mighty warrior queen is mistaken by historians to be a man, yet she goes into battle in a dress. Still better designed than most female anime characters just felt annoyed with the armor dress since I feel as though it was included just to remind people that Arthur is a woman.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

This highlights my problem with people who condemn sexualized characters. Those characters are not the problem. Sexuality is not wrong or evil. The problem starts when basically every female character is protrayed that way. When developers are afraid to promote good female characters because they think it might hurt sales (like the Bioshock Infinite box art nonsense). And when developers start having a very wrong idea of when actually is considered attractive by their audience.

And, on the other hand, when a lot of gamers start violently defending such sexualized characters, like the ridiculous backlash people like Sarkeesian arouse. As long as sex objects sell, they won't go away. Chainmail bikinis will continue to exist so long as there are people who like looking at them. So what do they have to lose if there are women are portrayed differently as well? Nothing. Variety is key.

This. This right here. I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for people to understand. It seems that, like in politics, internet debates gravitate to the extremes, ignoring rationality in favor of yelling from opposite mountaintops. Is there a problem with how women are displayed in games? Certainly. Is the solution to paint every sexy character as evil incarnate? No, that's pants-on-head retarded. The goal is to have more characters that appeal to different sorts of gamers, not to cater exclusively to one side or the other.

Right now, we have straight male gamers being catered to almost exclusively; this is a problem. Arguing against this isn't (or shouldn't be) arguing for the exact opposite. On the flipside, people who like what current games look like need to quit feeling like they're under attack when people complain about it. People liking skimpy armor and sexy designs isn't the problem. Devs making nothing else IS.

Claiming EVERY female in gaming is sexualized makes me think neither of you have even laid eyes on a videogame in the past 10 years.
But in case you're not directly claiming that, you're still saying "the problem starts when basically every female is portrayed that way" and "devs making nothing else IS" - that means there is no problem, the problem hasn't even started according to what you two consider a problem. But then why are you even here

Thing is the female populace of japan doesnt seem to mind one bit this overly sexualized presentation of their gender.. atleast i havent heard about any big womens rights organisations or even japan feminists speaking out about this issue the west seems to have with overly sexualised characters.

Neither does china from what i've seen over there, and i've said this before but western women don't seem to have a problem with it either. The only people i'm aware of who seem to care are liberal white males and radical feminists, who are so small a minority that they can and continue to be ignored. If i'm wrong than please show me, i'd like to get to the bottom of this!

You're basically at bottom of it already

I can only speak for Japan, and yes the people there give absolutely zero shits about how their gender is portrayed because every audience has a right to be catered to and every demographic is respected. That's why we hear about the weirdest stuff coming out of Japan - their mindset is "do absolutely whatever you want and you won't be judged for it, just be respectful in public". And we're talking about a country that still views genders like they were back in the 70's and 80's.
The western world could certainly learn a thing or two from Japan.

Japanese games have some of the most sexualized females I've ever seen in very high proportions, yet most of the complaints about said games are coming from westerners.

Here's Team Ninja's views:

Has anything about the production or marketing of Dead or Alive 5 been changed in any way after the recent furore surrounding representations of women in games, considering that the franchise is known for its oversexualised female characters?

With the representation of female characters in the Dead or Alive franchise, we?ve always wanted to make the girls look as attractive as possible, and that?s something that?s not going to change for us at all.

We are a Japanese developer, and we?re making the female characters with our common sense and our creative sense. When you take that to countries outside of Japan, it tends to be very misinterpreted in some cases, people considering it sexist or derogatory etc.

For us, within our culture, we?re showing women like that, and we?re trying to make them look attractive. We can?t help if other cultures in other countries around the globe think that it?s a bad representation. Within our nationality and within our national borders, we obviously have morals that we create our female characters from, but within our Japanese sensibilities, we?ve made those characters the way they are and we?re not going to stop doing that.

The Ninja Gaiden 3 feedback did have one surprising effect on the development of Dead or Alive 5, Shimbori says. "We were getting feedback from the overseas offices to tone down the sexuality -- to tone down the sexiness of the game, and of the characters," he remembers. But once feedback from fans playing the demo that was included with Ninja Gaiden 3 came in, those plans changed.

"We actually got a lot of feedback from people who were playing it, saying, 'We want bigger breasts. Make the characters more like that.' That was kind of surprising."

"There's definitely still room for having sexualized aspects," Shimbori concludes. "If you have a solid fighting game system there, there's nothing wrong with having beautiful characters as a layer on top of that -- that's another layer of entertainment that there's a need for. If there wasn't a need for it, people wouldn't have responded to the alpha demo like they did, and send us feedback."

 

[Angelblaze]

Also, if dressed anyone would like more examples of sensibly dressed females

The SHin Megamei Tensei Series
The Female Cast of Star Ocean
Legend of Zelda Series
Sengoku Basara ( Yes, there are women with cleavage, but there are also men with their abs on full display.)
The SIlent Hill Series
The Resident Evil Series
Alice: Madness Returns
Portal
Many Fighting Games have armored females ( With both eye candy for the male and female)
Skullgirls Cast ( The designers were even female)
THe Female Chaarcters of Morrowind and Oblivion
Left 4 Dead Series
Darksiders
Costume Quest
Dungeons of Dredmore
Risen 2
Dark SOuls 1 and 2
Dragon's Dogma
Dota 2
Bioshock Infinite
Darksiders 2
Fallout Series

These are all wellknown games.

'Reasonably dressed'.

Yes.
Reasonably dressed.
But just about every character in Skullgirls shows their panties when they fall down/while they are trying to get up.
--
Take note: at least half of the games you have up here are made by Japanese developers who have an entirely different sexualization problem.
--
'These are all wellknown games.'

Um what? Isn't that totally up to how absorbed you are into 'gaming culture'.

It's kinda cringy to see people get so "Into" sexualised characters.

Like, Okay, I get you like naked women bodies, but, can't you just go and look at porn?

What's the fascination that every female has to be as revealing as possible in a fantasy setting?

Even boob-plate is dumb. I mean, sure, it's better, but, it's dumb.

Isn' that preety much the " If you don't like i, go play something else!" argument with a difrent coat of paint.

Besides, it's no like that is actually that prevalent, at least in terms where the male gender gets full plate armor and the females don't.

Look back over the past couple pages you've changed you goal posts so often that the field is full of holes.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

'Reasonably dressed'.

Yes.
Reasonably dressed.
But just about every character in Skullgirls shows their panties when they fall down/while they are trying to get up.
--
Take note: at least half of the games you have up here are made by Japanese developers who have an entirely different sexualization problem.
--
'These are all wellknown games.'

Um what? Isn't that totally up to how absorbed you are into 'gaming culture'.

Well, if you do kicks in skirts, then your panties will show. But all of the characters are all reasonable dress. Come to think of it, for the supposed panty fighter game, there are barel any stripperific outfits ( Besides Misfortune, but how is her style of dress different from Ryu from Street Fighter or Jin from Tekken?)

It's kinda cringy to see people get so "Into" sexualised characters.

Like, Okay, I get you like naked women bodies, but, can't you just go and look at porn?

What's the fascination that every female has to be as revealing as possible in a fantasy setting?

Even boob-plate is dumb. I mean, sure, it's better, but, it's dumb.

Isn' that preety much the " If you don't like i, go play something else!" argument with a difrent coat of paint.

Besides, it's no like that is actually that prevalent, at least in terms where the male gender gets full plate armor and the females don't.

Look back over the past couple pages you've changed you goal posts so often that the field is full of holes.

let me make this clear. I wanted examples were the women are giving sexy armour, and the men aren't. Very few examples I could fine. If the men both are shirtless and glistening, than it can't be sexy armor, since thats just the way everyone dresses.

The examples I also saw are from more niche series as well. I never see the chainmail bikini that is so rampant in the games released nowadays

 

[Karadalis]

Thing is the female populace of japan doesnt seem to mind one bit this overly sexualized presentation of their gender.. atleast i havent heard about any big womens rights organisations or even japan feminists speaking out about this issue the west seems to have with overly sexualised characters.

Neither does china from what i've seen over there, and i've said this before but western women don't seem to have a problem with it either. The only people i'm aware of who seem to care are liberal white males and radical feminists, who are so small a minority that they can and continue to be ignored. If i'm wrong than please show me, i'd like to get to the bottom of this!

Precisely... and to add to that:

If you take a look around on conventions and see what the females cosplayers are wearing.. i can guarantee you it is not historical armor.

They ALLWAYS go for the sexy armor style look and the oh so bad sexualized characters. So before people harp on overly sexualized female characters in gaming maybe they should also realize that there are alot of women out there who really enjoy these characters.. and not only the males.

So no its not only males, these characters are also very popular amongst females too.

I mean just look at the escapists own articles about cosplaying, the overwhelming majority of female cosplayers goes for sexy characters, and i doubt they here forced to dress up like that.

Take note: at least half of the games you have up here are made by Japanese developers who have an entirely different sexualization problem.

Japan has no sexualisation problem, you are the one who has a problem with them sexualizing characters. Big difference. If there was a problem we would be reading about the japanese populace protesting against this certain type of portraial... but there is none.

So how about you stop projecting your own moral code onto a completly different culture with different values and simply accept that the japanese are what they are.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Take note: at least half of the games you have up here are made by Japanese developers who have an entirely different sexualization problem.

It's a problem to you. In Japan (or really most non-western nations) people don't consider it a problem. In fact it's accepted and embraced, which is the opposite of a problem.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Take note: at least half of the games you have up here are made by Japanese developers who have an entirely different sexualization problem.

It's a problem to you. In Japan (or really most non-western nations) people don't consider it a problem. In fact it's accepted and embraced, which is the opposite of a problem.

Japan has no sexualisation problem, you are the one who has a problem with them sexualizing characters. Big difference. If there was a problem we would be reading about the japanese populace protesting against this certain type of portraial... but there is none.

So how about you stop projecting your own moral code onto a completly different culture with different values and simply accept that the japanese are what they are.

Well, if the Japanese themselves accept what they are, and stay the way they are, they won't be around for much longer, thanks to their extremely low birthrates. Which is a problem, wouldn't you agree? And young guys preferring to jack off to sexualized anime characters instead of hitting on real girls are partially responsible for that (but I guess not as much as the generally sexist Japanese society with its rigid traditional gender roles).

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Take note: at least half of the games you have up here are made by Japanese developers who have an entirely different sexualization problem.

It's a problem to you. In Japan (or really most non-western nations) people don't consider it a problem. In fact it's accepted and embraced, which is the opposite of a problem.

Japan has no sexualisation problem, you are the one who has a problem with them sexualizing characters. Big difference. If there was a problem we would be reading about the japanese populace protesting against this certain type of portraial... but there is none.

So how about you stop projecting your own moral code onto a completly different culture with different values and simply accept that the japanese are what they are.

Well, if the Japanese themselves accept what they are, and stay the way they are, they won't be around for much longer, thanks to their extremely low birthrates. Which is a problem, wouldn't you agree? And young guys preferring to jack off to sexualized anime characters instead of hitting on real girls are partially responsible for that (but I guess not as much as the generally sexist Japanese society with its rigid traditional gender roles).

Hey, try not to badmouth peoples cultures. It's not cool.

 

[CloudAtlas]

[...]Well, if the Japanese themselves accept what they are, and stay the way they are, they won't be around for much longer, thanks to their extremely low birthrates. Which is a problem, wouldn't you agree? And young guys preferring to jack off to sexualized anime characters instead of hitting on real girls are partially responsible for that (but I guess not as much as the generally sexist Japanese society with its rigid traditional gender roles).

Hey, try not to badmouth peoples cultures. It's not cool.

I'm not badmouthing anyone's culture. I'm merely stating conclusions I belive to true from social sciences examining Japanese society which I happen to be familiar with, having studied them myself.

 

[DME]

Well if you have studied social sciences then you would know that the cultures with the highest birth rates are those with some of the most rigid, retrograde gender roles. I don't think there is much evidence that Japan's lack of feminism is driving it's low birth rates. A much more likely reason is that it's economy has been in the shitter for decades.

As to the question of sexy armors... I have no problem with sexy armor, or sexy outfits in general, as long as it fits with the aesthetic of the game. I would prefer games with a grittier, more realistic aesthetic, like Dragon Age for example, have more realistic armors. But in a game like Soul Calibur, or DOA? Hey go nuts. Those games don't try to hide what they are, it's right there on the box. So if you buy them and then get offended that the characters are not wearing realistic armor you have only yourself to blame.

There is also the question of what constitutes a female power fantasy, vs what is made to titillate a male audience. The most overt female power fantasies, like romance novels and paranormal romances, all feature highly attractive female protagonists. Not many women want their fantasy alter ego to be homely and unattractive, no more than men want their alter ego's to be weak and ineffectual. I would be interested to see statistics on what percentage of either gender is going out of their way to use sexy armors.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Well, if the Japanese themselves accept what they are, and stay the way they are, they won't be around for much longer, thanks to their extremely low birthrates. Which is a problem, wouldn't you agree? And young guys preferring to jack off to sexualized anime characters instead of hitting on real girls are partially responsible for that (but I guess not as much as the generally sexist Japanese society with its rigid traditional gender roles).

China, India and a whole bunch of other 3rd world countries have extremely traditional gender roles and they are popping out babies like no tomorrow. In China they had to have that iron-fisted population control scheme. Japan are also a country that I highly doubt is going anywhere, they are working on multiple solutions to the birthing issue and giving women equal treatment/rights could very well be part of that solution - but I don't see how it will change their outlook on sexualisation in videogames.

In any case I never said Japan was a perfect country, just that western nations could learn a thing or two from it. I.e. respecting all demographics equally, not over-reacting to everything gender/race/etc-related and understanding that sexualized characters in videogames are perfectly fine because there is a big market for them.

 

[Suicidejim]

I will concede that there's certainly a place for sexualized fantasy armour, and that I believe sexuality, like any other topic, is a perfectly reasonable thing to explore in games (even if it's rare to find those that treat the topic with maturity). That said, it is absurdly prevalent, as is the sexualization and objectification of female characters in general. Casting moral objections aside, since plenty of people have covered those aspects in detail, it honestly just feels like people are trying to pander me in the clumsiest of ways every 5 minutes.

Also, if you directly tie stats to armour and make the female armour steadily more revealing and sexy without at least a reasonable alternative, I am going to glare at you so damn hard.

 

[CloudAtlas]

China, India and a whole bunch of other 3rd world countries have extremely traditional gender roles and they are popping out babies like no tomorrow.

China has a rapidly aging population as well, it's population growth is on the decline since quite a while, and the Chinese population is projected to peak within the next decades. So, no, China is not popping babies like no tomorrow, and hardly is a good example for your case.

The difference between Japan and your 3rd world countries is that in Japan, women are well-educated and are able to make a decent living on their own. However, thanks to traditional gender roles that still persist, women are expected to stop working as soon as they're married - at the latest as soon as they're getting kids. That is why more and more Japanese women don't want to pursue serious relationships - it's not that they don't like children, not necessarily, they just don't want to give up their jobs.

To break it down simply.

Japan are also a country that I highly doubt is going anywhere, they are working on multiple solutions to the birthing issue and giving women equal treatment/rights could very well be part of that solution - but I don't see how it will change their outlook on sexualisation in videogames.

As soon as Japan is tackling its more serious issues, as it probably will sooner or later - the cracks in its society are already huge and will only get bigger - I wouldn't be surprised if Japanese feminists too will turn towards the rampant sexualization in Japanese media.

In any case I never said Japan was a perfect country, just that western nations could learn a thing or two from it. I.e. respecting all demographics equally, not over-reacting to everything gender/race/etc-related and understanding that sexualized characters in videogames are perfectly fine because there is a big market for them.

1. Japan is not exactly a paragon when it comes to racism issues, so you might not want to bring that example.
2. Isn't that exactly what the western female video gamer demographic wants and doesn't quite get? To be respcted equally? And how can you feel equally respected if your gender is objectified that often in games they'd like to enjoy, if they're often there for nothing but titilation?
Or are you suggesting that boy gamers are a demographic that is respected in Japan but not here?
You know, you comment on these topics an awful lot, but do you even understand why people have a problem with sexualization? Aren't you always arguing that women in fact don't deserve to be respected if the market - i.e. boys - doesn't want to see them respected? And aren't you kinda defending that an awful lot?

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

As soon as Japan is tackling its more serious issues, as it probably will sooner or later - the cracks in its society are already huge and will only get bigger - I wouldn't be surprised if Japanese feminists too will turn towards the rampant sexualization in Japanese media.

Won't be particularly smart of them to do that, it would be very short-sighted of them.

2. Isn't that exactly what the western female video gamer demographic wants and doesn't quite get? To be respcted equally?

Western female video gamer demographic? As far as the industry is concerned, said demographic is already VERY WELL catered to by Pop Cap games, Facebook and mobile games/apps. No sexism or sexualization to be found in those games.

And how can you feel equally respected if your gender is objectified that often in games they'd like to enjoy, if they're often there for nothing but titilation?

Which games are you talking about exactly

Or are you suggesting that boy gamers are a demographic that is respected in Japan but not here?

Male gamers get plenty of respect everywhere.

You know, you comment on these topics an awful lot, but do you even understand why people have a problem with sexualization?

Oh I understand. There is a group gamers & feminists who don't understand why sexualization exists to begin with, why it sells and want things to conform to their wishes and expectations. Fair enough, I get that.

Aren't you always arguing that women in fact don't deserve to be respected if the market - i.e. boys - doesn't want to see them respected? And aren't you kinda defending that an awful lot?

Not really : /
I don't really "defend" anything to be honest, I let market and consumer trends speak for themselves. I simply need to point at them
People throw around words like sexism and misogyny while not understanding that society itself is built on a foundation of NOT treating the genders 100% equally to each other. The entire foundation needs to change if you want to see a change in games. Media & entertainment is simply a tiny branch of society as a whole.

Calling sexism in videogames a "problem" is not seeing the forest for the trees. Or more like not seeing the forest for the twigs and leaves.