Sexy Shelob...why? Just why?

[Metalix Knightmare]

As for why a giant spider would give a crap to appear human? Her own limitations really. Shelob may be a monster, but she's still smarter than most people. The PC is capable of getting things done that she can't, particularly with those ghost powers his elf buddy has, and he's been shown to have a soft spot in his head when it comes to pretty ladies. It'd be a lot easier to make him do what she wants looking like a sexy witch than a giant spider.

Dear God, how fucking dull.

"So we want to do a chapter where the hero strikes a sort of devil's bargain with an intelligent demon spider."

"Cool. What kind of design are we aiming for with the spider? I'm sure the art team will have a field day with this."

"I'm thinking woman in a dress."

"Oh."

Because people are generally willing to strike bargains with gigantic demon spiders and not attractive women. You DO realize that there is a reason that Lucifer types tend to appear as very attractive beings right? People tend to like and trust the beautiful people moreso than the ugly ones. Heck, Sauron appeared as an angelic being when he started handing out the rings.

The only way anyone would strike a bargain with Spider-Shelob would be if they were driven BEYOND desperation.

 

[Erttheking]

While you do have a point, it still doesn't change the fact that you tend to have a massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to female sexuality Er.

Plus, do I have to bring up the Superbowl Incident from awhile back? American culture has issues with sex and nudity that honestly reminds me of Jason Voorhees.

You're like a more honest version of Paulie from One Piece.

Dude, you wouldn't know what female sexuality was if it kicked you in the groin. You know how I know that? Every time you try to criticize me about "Female sexuality" you talk about a situation that's almost always designed to appeal to heterosexual males. Fuck, people in this thread who defend this have been saying that up and down, saying it's a good thing that they're appealing to heterosexual males. And you're trying to present it as female sexuality? Sure man. Whatever. Anything to paint me as a regressive prude, regardless of how much sense it makes. Please tell me more about the giant man eating spider that is the daughter of a monster that tried to destroy the most holy thing in Middle Earth that is apparently just trying to display her sexuality. (And people wonder why Christopher Tolkien hates everything based on his father's work.) And honest question man. When was the last time you actually talked to a woman about her sexuality? Because I've actually done that. Have you? Oh and BTW, bit of advice. Play Ladykiller in a Bind. A game that's ACTUALLY about female sexuality, mainly because it's about a woman and her desire to have sex, as well as stepping into the world of BDSM when she's utterly unfamiliar with it and exploring her limits. That's female sexuality. Not just empty pandering to hetero males.

Can we tone down on the hyperbole for three seconds please? I know it's tempting to think that because I think that maybe female characters can have roles beyond Not Morrigan seductress #4163 I kill people for having sex, but can you please, you know, base your accusations on things that actually happen?

I'm guessing you either didn't read or selectively ignored that post I made earlier in the thread where I pointed out the aforementioned Ladykiller in a Bind and said I liked the sexy skins in Overwatch or are just flat out ignoring it to prop up that narrative that I hate women expressing their sexuality.

You know, I was going to type out a big rant about how tired I am of people who can't handle tits in video games in criticized so they try to make me be either a prude or someone who hates them but fuck it. You've twisted your internal image of me into being a female sexuality hating prude, so what's the point? If I'm Paulie, you're one of the Marines that believes in Absolute Justice. Anything that goes against you is evil. And there's no real fucking point in trying to convince you to change your mind.

Now if you'll excuse me, this man who apparently has a problem with female sexuality has to play some Overwatch. That goddess Mercy skin isn't gonna unlock itself. Nor is that Widowmaker skin.

 

[Zhukov]

Because people are generally willing to strike bargains with gigantic demon spiders and not attractive women. You DO realize that there is a reason that Lucifer types tend to appear as very attractive beings right? People tend to like and trust the beautiful people moreso than the ugly ones. Heck, Sauron appeared as an angelic being when he started handing out the rings.

The only way anyone would strike a bargain with Spider-Shelob would be if they were driven BEYOND desperation.

Sooooo boring.

See, a good writer would find a way around that. A good writer would use it as a challenge and an opportunity to surprise the audience. "Here's a giant fuck-off spider, a classic monster... BUT she's actually willing to talk. See how we resolve this contrast."

Kind of like how Terry Pratchett took the Grim Reaper, the actual fucking personification of death, a seven-foot, scythe-toting robed skeleton and made him an all time beloved character by making him affable and dripping with ennui. And he didn't need to turn him into a sexy shirtless dude to achieve that because Terry Pratchett was a fucking legend with a pen.

But the people behind Shadow of Mordor are not good writers. They're shit writers. Which is probably why they're writing for video games. Thankfully the people in charge of making the half-ghosty man hit the shouty bads with his sword seem to know their trade.

...

(This next bit is aimed at the thread in general, not just you Metalix.)

Funny coincidence actually, I'm currently reading a book called Perdido Street Station. It's no Pratchett but it's not too bad. There's a scene where a not-very-nice city mayor attempts to recruit aid from a demon, an ambassador from literal Hell. The ambassador appears like an ordinary clean-cut man in an outdated suit. Except when you close your eyes or blink you get a glimpse of what he really looks like. So the entire exchange takes place with the mayor desperately trying to avoid blinking. Also, whenever the ambassador speaks his words are echoed by a barely audible screeching sound coming from far away.

The demon ends up declining the deal. (The whole scene is there to show that the things the mayor is up against are so scary that even demons don't want to get involved.) So the mayor goes to his second choice which is... a giant fuck-off spider. Except there's more to it than that. It's a trans-dimensional creature of nigh godlike power that feeds off aesthetic appreciation, but it's idea of aesthetics is so bizarre and alien that to a human it appears essentially mad. It talks in an unending lilting song heard in the mind of anybody who gets close to it. Oh, and it's obsessed with scissors and accepts them as payment.

That might seem silly. I guess it is. Like I said, it's not the greatest book I've ever read, But it's a whole lot more interesting and creative than what we're getting here in video game land: "Ummm, fuck it, just make have the spider turn into a lady in a dress. Make the dress black, because evil you see. Nailed it."

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

As for why a giant spider would give a crap to appear human? Her own limitations really. Shelob may be a monster, but she's still smarter than most people. The PC is capable of getting things done that she can't, particularly with those ghost powers his elf buddy has, and he's been shown to have a soft spot in his head when it comes to pretty ladies. It'd be a lot easier to make him do what she wants looking like a sexy witch than a giant spider.

Dear God, how fucking dull.

"So we want to do a chapter where the hero strikes a sort of devil's bargain with an intelligent demon spider."

"Cool. What kind of design are we aiming for with the spider? I'm sure the art team will have a field day with this."

"I'm thinking woman in a dress."

"Oh."

"Hasn't that been done, like, every time someone needs to make a deal with the devil?"

"Shut up Marty"

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

 

[Zhukov]

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Depends. By "sexy dude" do you mean "designed for 100% raw unmitigated sex appeal" or "handsome snappy dresser"?

If the former, then I've probably seen a few examples. If the latter then that's actually quite common.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Depends. By "sexy dude" do you mean "designed for 100% raw unmitigated sex appeal" or "handsome snappy dresser"?

If the former, then I've probably seen a few examples. If the latter then that's actually quite common.

I've definitely seen more the suave, snappy dresser, but half the time they're got red skin and horns.

I dunno, maybe I'm got a different conception based on horror comics. Though it being common for dudely devils scores another point in the "man, they use this all the time" argument.

 

[Erttheking]

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Depends. By "sexy dude" do you mean "designed for 100% raw unmitigated sex appeal" or "handsome snappy dresser"?

If the former, then I've probably seen a few examples. If the latter then that's actually quite common.

I've definitely seen more the suave, snappy dresser, but half the time they're got red skin and horns.

I dunno, maybe I'm got a different conception based on horror comics. Though it being common for dudely devils scores another point in the "man, they use this all the time" argument.

Fallen London/Sunless Sea comes to mind. Devils maintain open diplomacy and trade routes with London. There are demons, but devils, higher up on the totem polls, resemble humans, albeit for glowing red eyes and tears that burn, I'm not kidding. They've more or less industrialized soul deals, with them being regular occurrences. Apparently it's not uncommon for people to take them, because Hell is real and if you don't sell your soul you might end up going to hell anyway, so might as well get some cash. They're pretty sharply dressed for the most part, although when you talk to them you can kinda tell what you're getting into.

Then again, as Zhukov mentioned, creativity is a huge factor in presentation, and Fallen London/Sunless Sea is a blazing star compared to Shadow of War's dying candle. There's a serial killer called Jack o Knives, who it turns out is really a set of cursed knives who turn anyone who picks up one of them into Jack. There's an island called polythreme, where the main export is sentient Clay Men who provide cheap labor, and everything on the island is alive. And I mean EVERYTHING! The walls are alive, the clothes are alive, the WATER is alive. It's actually pretty horrific, candles scream in agony, water begs you to stop while you drink it, beds are slaves, and the King with a Hundred Hearts is at the center of it all. This is without getting into the sentient coral rift who loves chess and badly wants to die because existence as a coral reef is unbearable, the war between rats and guinea pigs (with rifles, armies and everything) the underwater court of the drowned, the coastline that's in the middle of a three way power struggle between London, mongols, and the native talking tigers, and the artificial sun in the far corner of the map, which is probably sentient and wants to kill us all.

I just compare the two games and I want to laugh.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

As for why a giant spider would give a crap to appear human? Her own limitations really. Shelob may be a monster, but she's still smarter than most people. The PC is capable of getting things done that she can't, particularly with those ghost powers his elf buddy has, and he's been shown to have a soft spot in his head when it comes to pretty ladies. It'd be a lot easier to make him do what she wants looking like a sexy witch than a giant spider.

Dear God, how fucking dull.

"So we want to do a chapter where the hero strikes a sort of devil's bargain with an intelligent demon spider."

"Cool. What kind of design are we aiming for with the spider? I'm sure the art team will have a field day with this."

"I'm thinking woman in a dress."

"Oh."

"Hasn't that been done, like, every time someone needs to make a deal with the devil?"

"Shut up Marty"

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Shin Megami Tensei. Literally EVERY game in the main series.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I seem to recall him appearing as a little boy/ an old wrinkled man in Nocturne. Hardly sexy.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I would've thought the Tolkien purists would be ripping this a new one. Haven't heard much of that happening.

As for why they did it, tits sell.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.


Besides this fact which explains it in an artistic and mythology-based nuance, I also can say that I do not think something having "tits" instantly equates to them being sexy. Even if they're "perfect feminine tits". It's meant to emphasize the contrast by putting a human-looking component side by side to the monstrous parts of the body of the creature, making it revolting and uncomfortable to look at.

This occurs because we have an innate urge to want to look at "perfect feminine tits" which in the context of them being on a body they do not belong in uses that urge and our desire to look at them to makes us sick to our stomach. It is a compelling way of achieving horror.

 

[RaikuFA]

Snip

I seem to recall him appearing as a little boy/ an old wrinkled man in Nocturne. Hardly sexy.

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Lucifer

Older games had him portrayed as a young man in his 20's. Or as his angel form.

Strange Journey had him look like a older version of Alice.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.


Besides this fact which explains it in an artistic and mythology-based nuance,

It's painfully unoriginal and the myth you're citing was Greek. Middle Earth is based on Northern European myth cycles.

It is a compelling way of achieving horror.

It really isn't. It's just lazy writing. Is it really that important to you that this particular banal decision be considered high art?

I know it's Greek, since I am Greek lol. I think that adding influences from other cultures in games is a good thing, I don't try to stick to one thing and one thing only simply because the majority of the game is based on that one thing. Kinda like how most Final Fantasy stuff is pretty typical Japanese stories but then you have beings such as Tiamat or Quetzalcoatl which stem from various different cultures.

And that's just kinda your opinion in the end there lol.

I don't particularly care either way since I am not a fan but I saw the OP talking about the classic femme-spider we've seen through the eons as though it was a new creation of some kind of weird horn-dog, greedily sticking tits where they do not belong, so I felt compelled to clarify what it actually stemmed from.

 

[Zhukov]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination...

Uhh... every single version of that myth that I've read had Athena turning Arachne into a regular spider.

... which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.

No it doesn't. The design we see here is neither a spider nor a half-woman-half-spider abomination. It's just a woman in a dress.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination...

Uhh... every single version of that myth that I've read had Athena turning Arachne into a regular spider.

... which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.

No it doesn't. The design we see here is neither a spider nor a half-woman-half-spider abomination. It's just a woman in a dress.

I'm mostly curious about why we're referencing Ancient Greek mythology in a story set in Tolkien's absurdly detailed world. Given Tolkien's life story, Mata Hari would be a better reference.

So, 5 bucks Shelob sells you out to the antagonist at some point. Wait, no, that's a given. 5 bucks if the Devs bother to actually do something creative and don't have the spider-who-can-inexplicably-turn-into-a-conventionally-attractive-woman inevitably betray you.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination...

Uhh... every single version of that myth that I've read had Athena turning Arachne into a regular spider.

... which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.

No it doesn't. The design we see here is neither a spider nor a half-woman-half-spider abomination. It's just a woman in a dress.

I'm mostly curious about why we're referencing Ancient Greek mythology in a story set in Tolkien's absurdly detailed world. Given Tolkien's life story, Mata Hari would be a better reference.

Tolkien had stated time and again that he did not base LOTR off of his time in war. That's not even getting into the fact that he was yanking bits from a bunch of other mythologies and cultures while making his books. (The elves in particular drew a lot of influence from Celtic foklore.) The idea that he'd pull something from Greek Myths is hardly out there.

Snip

I seem to recall him appearing as a little boy/ an old wrinkled man in Nocturne. Hardly sexy.

Not sexy, but still approachable. You wouldn't expect a little kid or an old man to try and backstab you, and even if they do you'd think you could take them. It's all about getting someone to lower their guard and be willing to trust you. (Plus, given the circumstances of that game, showing up as someone who SHOULDN'T be able to survive in that world but somehow did would at the very least make you inclined to figure out how they managed that.)

For crying out loud, this idea has been a storytelling trope since before the freaking Iliad! The only reason Shelob wouldn't go for, say, an old crone, is because the MC has shown that he has a weak point when it comes to attractive women, and if she took the form of a child, he'd be more interested in getting her out of Mordor entirely!

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Tolkien had stated time and again that he did not base LOTR off of his time in war. That's not even getting into the fact that he was yanking bits from a bunch of other mythologies and cultures while making his books. (The elves in particular drew a lot of influence from Celtic foklore.) The idea that he'd pull something from Greek Myths is hardly out there.

No, he stated time and time again that LotR was not an allegory for WW1 or WW2. But he admitted it influenced him, because obviously. You're not on the front lines during the Battle of the Somme without it leaving some lasting impressions. Industrialization had a big influence too, but LotR isn't an allegory for industrialization either.

And this idea doesn't actually pull anything from the myth of Arachne. Shelob was always a spider. She wasn't punished for her hubris by the gods, she never transformed (and has no canon ability to), and she's got nothing to do with weaving.

Shelob's got as much in common with Arachne as she does with Spider-Man.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

All this talk of sexy Shelob and no one is talking about this?


Ew out of place Cameos...