Shamus Young talks nonsense!

[Frozengale]

seriously, WTF?! Just because he criticizes it you jump all over him.

I think you are blowing my reaction out of proportion, which I find irritating. If I was personally insulting him then I could understand why you think I am over-reacting, but I am just addressing the poor content of this article when compared to the great stuff he usually writes. Like I said in a previous post, he can think what he likes as long as he is able to justify that opinion, which I feel he didn't do in that article.

Well I'm sorry but you are coming off as a butt-hurt fanboy. The content isn't poor, he states whats wrong, backs up his claims with evidence, and goes into detail explaining why it's bad. He justifies his claims. Your argument seems to be that he is criticizing something that you love and not offering enough counter points of "Well this part is good, and so is this, and this". Shamus is just criticizing the bad points though, and there is nothing wrong with giving a fairly detailed analysis of the bad points of a game.

 

[Dr Red]

seriously, WTF?! Just because he criticizes it you jump all over him.

I think you are blowing my reaction out of proportion, which I find irritating. If I was personally insulting him then I could understand why you think I am over-reacting, but I am just addressing the poor content of this article when compared to the great stuff he usually writes. Like I said in a previous post, he can think what he likes as long as he is able to justify that opinion, which I feel he didn't do in that article.

Well I'm sorry but you are coming off as a butt-hurt fanboy. The content isn't poor, he states whats wrong, backs up his claims with evidence, and goes into detail explaining why it's bad. He justifies his claims. Your argument seems to be that he is criticizing something that you love and not offering enough counter points of "Well this part is good, and so is this, and this". Shamus is just criticizing the bad points though, and there is nothing wrong with giving a fairly detailed analysis of the bad points of a game.

Unfortunately I can't quote his lack of justification, as there is nothing to quote. However, you sir can quote the justification he supposedly gives.

I'm just irked that people seem to think that Mass Effect is the only series that writers use 'cheats' on. Shepard being ridiculously awesome and lucky beyond any comprehension is no more hard to believe than the irritatingly erratic functionality of the sonic-screwdriver.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

He's pretty misinformed on a lot of stuff, just do what I do and don't read his articles.

 

[Dr Red]

stop acting like a butt hurt fanboy in the denial phase of the Stages of Grief.

I find that pretty offensive. In response to your other points, I think everyone shouts at their televisions when watching horror films when the characters decide to split up for no apparent reason, or one of them decides to go off on their own. I think I'll take this person's advice

He's pretty misinformed on a lot of stuff, just do what I do and don't read his articles.

and stop reading his pieces.

 

[Exterminas]

You must be new to the internet, let me fill you in on the blanks:

There are multiple human beings on this planet. Every human being has it's own perception. There is no such thing as "the" Reality.
We call expressions of one's perception, be that vocal or in written form, opinion.

As the perception differs the opinions will do as well.

So let's go with that new knowledge to your point "Shamus talks nonsense". Is it true?
Well, your opinion sure differs from his, which entitles you to accuse him of talking nonsense.
Which in reflection means that his opinion differs from your, which would allow the same for him.
So he would have the same right to say "Dr Red talks nonsense"

Which makes your point invalid, because any argument that can be reversed has zero meaning for a dicsussion.

So, how can we solve this?

It is simple, you just need to come up with an objective method of measure how well a given character is defined, cahracterized etc.

 

[Trolldor]

OP:

You're doing it wrong.
Like the vast majority of escapist members you're creating weight where there is none. You are generating more than what the article possesses. It is nothing more than his opinion. You are perfectly free to disagree, just stop acting like the whole world is going to crumble because he has a contrary opinion to your own.

 

[Frozengale]

I find that pretty offensive. In response to your other points, I think everyone shouts at their televisions when watching horror films when the characters decide to split up for no apparent reason, or one of them decides to go off on their own. I think I'll take this person's advice

He's pretty misinformed on a lot of stuff, just do what I do and don't read his articles.

and stop reading his pieces.

It's not meant to be offensive. I never called you any names or anything, I just said that your reaction to the whole thing is coming off in a way that makes you seem somewhat jaded due to what the author is criticizing. And yes I would say that a horror film where the protagonists split up or a movie where a character goes off on his own for no good reason would in fact be bad storytelling and bad writing in general. You are allowed your opinion, but you really are making mountains out of molehills and pulling reasoning out of thin air.

 

[Firehound]

No one argues against any Star Wars story line when something utterly unreasonable happens and is attributed to the Force. Nobody churns out a 3-page article of half-considered ranting about the sonic screwdriver that the Doctor wields which functions only when it is in the plot's best interest to do so.

Except they do.

At least try and find something that at best wasn't only mediocre.

They fact is, A good plot is needed to support good characters or your left hanging in the breeze, and vice versa. This does not need to be it's own thread and is just a whiny nerd rant to use your own word.

He attacked the obvious lurching plot holes and gigantic railroading. Not the more subtle choices, but the obvious bad ideas and idiot ball moments.

 

[Spencer Petersen]

The existence of well written characters does not excuse the truly terrible sections where the story forgets the vast majority of options available.

Just because Shepard can't be bested in one on one ground combat, it does not make him running on to a spaceship (which has proven the only thing which can kill him) any less of an incredibly stupid idea.
There was absolutely no reason for Shepard to die at all, but for some reason it got stuck in to artificially jump-start the plot and make the tacked-on RPG reset to level 1 make sense, even though it never impacts the plot in any meaningful way later on.
Why in the mother of god, when Shepard's entire overt mission is to rally the universe against the threat of the Reapers, does he leave the biggest piece of evidence and then destroy it for no apparent reason besides superstition.
Why is saving technology which could reveal the secret of 50,000 years of history and extend the scientific knowledge of all the races of the galaxy considered the evil option, whereas blindly destroying it for superstitious reason is the good option?
They've mentioned several times that Mass Relays have to be activated to work, so can they deactivate the Omega-4 and solve all their problems, or how about mine it? They expressly mention that no one uses it anymore besides the Collectors. No, because that would solve the plot and end the story, so we never mention it.

And as your point with Star Wars, would it have made any more sense if Luke had been killed in the first 5 minutes of episode 5, and then reincarnated him due to the force at the ten minute mark?
Well written characters only help you flesh out the universe, they are no excuse for massive gaping plot holes and scripted pseudo-choice nonsense.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I'm a long-time lurker who has finally surfaced to voice my annoyance at Shamus Young's recent article about Mass Effect. Prepare for nerd rage; Escapist mods, as I have observed you really seem to dislike it when someone gets the least bit rowdy so I will try to maintain my calm.

His entire article quickly glosses over the plot and chooses to not mention the well-written dialogue or interesting characters, which I feel were developed well. The roster of team members you rack up by end-game is diverse, with many different personalities present - sure, I hated some of them (Jacob, 2-D jarhead) but others I couldn't wait until I could advance their storyline and learn more about them (Thane, the awesome spiritual assassin dealing with his own mortality).

There is a reason that the writing went unmentioned in that article. It's because he was talking about the plot holes. The title of that article was "What's wrong with Mass Effect 2" not "What worked just fine in Mass Effect 2".

Personally Reading that article was a sort of eye opener for me because I didn't realize a lot of that stuff before I had it pointed out to me. Some things I caught on to immediately like the only reason Cerberus is hated is because of the work it's splinter groups are involved in. Why doesn't Cerberus just take down it's own splinter cells? Or just tell the council that their rouge groups are causing all the trouble?

As good as Bioware is at writing dialog they suck at writing stories. They follow a formula 1)something bad happens 2)fetch quest 3)problem solved. Which isn't a complaint, just an observation.

He instead chooses to moan about how ridiculous it is that Shepard manages to kill so many Collectors on their own vessel, and how the Collectors could have easily done X, Y and Z to stop him. This is a pointless argument. Any form of entertainment set in a sci-fi universe must be taken with a pinch of salt. No one argues against any Star Wars story line when something utterly unreasonable happens and is attributed to the Force. Nobody churns out a 3-page article of half-considered ranting about the sonic screwdriver that the Doctor wields which functions only when it is in the plot's best interest to do so.

These kind of inexplicable things are often the only way writers can make a riveting story. Would it be that interesting to sit back and press 'A' to just blast the Collector ship out of space? Or would you rather charge in there, discover the tragic fate of the Protheans and kick the Collectors in the face?

It's not that Shep and crew managed to escape the obvious trap it's that there was nothing to do once they were on the ship. The illusive man found the disabled Collector vessel and...what? They go aboard guns blazing?
They didn't go aboard to find the missing colonists they found them on board by coincidence, they didn't go looking for the Prothean data, that was also a coincidence, They weren't looking for the IFF. They were just on the ship because...they found it.

Granted I only thought about it after I read the article so it probably isn't such a big deal it doesn't make the game any worse.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

It is his opinion (an opinion I share on most of the points in the article). He backs up his claims in the article with examples from the game. I don't see why this thread was created.

 

[Dr Red]

You must be new to the internet, let me fill you in on the blanks:

We call expressions of one's perception, be that vocal or in written form, opinion.

I don't appreciate you patronising me, and involving existentialism in any argument is pointless.

You are allowed your opinion, but you really are making mountains out of molehills and pulling reasoning out of thin air.

I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill. I made a thread expressing my opinion that I thought it odd that a writer that produces material usually of a high-standard seemed to have, in my opinion slipped up. I thought that was what these forums were for? Expressing your opinion and engaging in discussion? The mindless polls interested in what would my weapon of choice be in a zombie apocalypse do get tiring; I'm not going to apologise for making this thread.

I appreciate that you don't agree with me and if you consider this thread to be unworthy of your attention or you have nothing relevant to say, please leave.

 

[Dr Red]

There was absolutely no reason for Shepard to die at all, but for some reason it got stuck in to artificially jump-start the plot and make the tacked-on RPG reset to level 1 make sense, even though it never impacts the plot in any meaningful way later on.

Yeah, I agree with you here. In hindsight, it does seem pretty unnecessary though it was quite harrowing to load up Mass Effect 2 and expect to start kicking ass when Shepard is seemingly killed. I found it a pretty shocking beginning.

Yummy double post.

 

[Frozengale]

You are allowed your opinion, but you really are making mountains out of molehills and pulling reasoning out of thin air.

I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill. I made a thread expressing my opinion that I thought it odd that a writer that produces material usually of a high-standard seemed to have, in my opinion slipped up. I thought that was what these forums were for? Expressing your opinion and engaging in discussion? The mindless polls interested in what would my weapon of choice be in a zombie apocalypse do get tiring; I'm not going to apologise for making this thread.

I appreciate that you don't agree with me and if you consider this thread to be unworthy of your attention or you have nothing relevant to say, please leave.

Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but when you go around saying someone is talking nonsense you better back it up with something. All you back your opinion up with is saying that he didn't point out the good in the game. And why should he? He has offered praise for the game on several different occasions, this is a critique of the stories biggest plot holes. You asked me to give you evidence to support my opinion and I did. I asked you to show me evidence and you never brought anything and even gave blanket statements that others are overly harsh on Mass Effect and not on other games/movies/etc. which you again failed to produce any evidence for.

You act like you are bringing up some logical sophisticated discussion and those who don't agree with you are trying to troll, when from our point of view it seems the exact opposite. Several people have pointed out flaws in your argument and you just glaze over it and keep attacking them.

 

[Dr Red]

You asked me to give you evidence to support my opinion and I did. I asked you to show me evidence and you never brought anything and even gave blanket statements that others are overly harsh on Mass Effect and not on other games/movies/etc. which you again failed to produce any evidence for.

You act like you are bringing up some logical sophisticated discussion and those who don't agree with you are trying to troll, when from our point of view it seems the exact opposite. Several people have pointed out flaws in your argument and you just glaze over it and keep attacking them.

I responded to your arguments, and I say thanks now for taking the time to have a discussion with me about it. I appreciate that, that is why I made an account - to discuss things like these with like-minded people. Now you're personally attacking me. Reported.

 

[Frozengale]

How oh HOW did I ever personally attack you? When in there does it say "YOU" followed by a string of poorly strung together adjectives? The only thing I've commented on is the logical fallacies that you brought up repeatedly and the fact that you aren't acting in a debate-ish manner. You glaze over the things you don't want to explain or find evidence for but ask others to do what you will not. You fail to give reason to WHY it's such a bad thing that Shamus critiques the game and you fail to say WHY this critique is any worse then the others you have given. If you don't explain yourselves then people will see you as a jaded fanboy, which I've said. I never CALLED you a jaded fanboy, I said you were acting like one. If you take offense to that then so be it, but I was only ever stating a fact and never personally attacked you. Heck, I even apologized when you first misconstrued me.

If you TRULY want to have discussions on this site then actually discuss. Don't fling your opinion around and ignore other people when they challenge you on it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Nobody churns out a 3-page article of half-considered ranting about the sonic screwdriver that the Doctor wields which functions only when it is in the plot's best interest to do so.

Hi, you don't seem to have met me before.

 

[Dr Red]

You fail to give reason to WHY it's such a bad thing that Shamus critiques the game

I think it is good that he critiques the game. I applaud him for trying to find flaws in an almost universally praised game (I know some people don't like it, but it's ratings from most sites tend to be >90%). He does mention some reasonable points about the idiocy of charging on to the Collector ship, but I thought this was an unreasonable argument. If you were to argue against writing like that, no Doctor Who episode review would be without "and then for some inexplicable reason X occured but the Doctor explained it away with nonsensical future science talk, so we were ok with it."

My point is that I find it an odd angle to take with the game. I'll admit my original post was obtuse in some respects, and I'm trying now to see what Shamus was attempting to do in that article. I can see it but it remains very odd, in my mind at least. This relates to my original point that it is a poor article in comparison to his others - this article was contrived, I thought, which made for unpleasant reading compared to his normally fantastic articles.

I never CALLED you a jaded fanboy, I said you were acting like one.

If you say someone acts like a (for example, as I don't want to swear) dog, is it not essentially calling them a dog?

Don't fling your opinion around and ignore other people when they challenge you on it.

Am I ignoring you?

 

[Dr Red]

Nobody churns out a 3-page article of half-considered ranting about the sonic screwdriver that the Doctor wields which functions only when it is in the plot's best interest to do so.

Hi, you don't seem to have met me before.

Link? ;D