Shiver Me Timbers! (or, a discussion about Pirates of the Caribbean)

[Arnoxthe1]

To me, the first movie has one of the most unique characters I have ever seen. James Norrington. He is playing a character I usually call The Suitor. He is usually in authority, approved by the father to marry the love interest. He is usually corrupt, ugly, old, or some combination of these. Norrington is none of these. He is just, deals calmly with Will, his rival, and tries to protect the men under his command instead of using them as fodder, and never goes behind the back of the governor. He even puts himself on the front lines many times and protects others. He is ambitious without it being destructive, like it usually is for The Suitor. He even steps aside for Will at the end, and lets Jack go from his execution because he knows its fair.

This comes back to bite him in the second movie, as his career and self worth is ruined. I like this because it shows that the fairytale ending from the first movie had consequences and you can't just let a prisoner caught and tried so publicly go like that. He tries at several points to get vengeance, even through murder. He starts to sober up and see himself and only hates. All he can see is rage. Then he betrays everyone and steals the letters of marque from Elizabeth, who he once loved, although he doesn't try to harm her, he just makes a plan to take them when he has a chance. You can even see this on his face when he is listening in the background. He then takes the heart to rebuild his life.

In the third movie you can see he realizes what he has done, he is sent out to execute many people without trial, the military being used to destroy. He suspects the murder of Governor Swan, the man he pledged loyalty to, the man who promoted him again and again based on his work and character. (This isn't projecting, you can see his facial expressions in many scenes, his acting is so good.) He begins to see the people he aligned himself as the monsters they are, and even sacrifices his life to help the protangonists one last time.

He has a huge arc over the trilogy and doesn't fall into the tropes of his character archetype. That being a man of the law doesn't restrict you from doing what is right.

And no one notices this.

I loved Norrington actually but... Beckett!

 

[Asita]

All of a sudden Keira has the hots for Depp's character, but then not anymore, I guess.

I always felt like that bit was a bit of a red herring. Not to say that Keira's character couldn't have been crushing on Depp's to some degree, but I think the truth is a bit more subtle than people give the movies credit for. A lot of people like to cite the compass for Elizabeth's feelings for Jack, but I don't think it's functioning on that wavelength. The first moments of the first film establish her as pretty much a pirate fangirl, down to the belief that Will was a pirate arguably starting her interest in him. Later, when she goes onto the Pearl she's quoting the code of the brethren to Barbossa and his crew and throughout the movie she is repeatedly frustrated by the various pirates not acting the way she expects them to. Her final line is even smugly saying that Will wasn't a blacksmith, he was a pirate. The only one to really fit her expectations was Jack, who she and Will both came to respect by the end of that same movie.

The compass pointing to Jack represented that inner fangirl in her. She didn't really want to be with Jack romantically, she wanted the brand of piracy that he represented. Cue the end of the film wherein she betrays Jack to save everyone else, and his response? "Pirate." She got what she wanted, and the grittier side of what that entailed tore her up. Then in the next movie she fully throws her lot in with the pirates and ends up at the top of the pirate food chain. Over the course of the trilogy she slowly transitions from pirate fangirl to the embodiment of her idealization of piracy. So when I see that compass needle, I don't see "she wants Jack more than anything in the world", I see "she wants to be the kind of pirate that Jack is". It fits her character arc. First she admires pirates, then she wants to be one, then she becomes one.

 

[Blitsie]

First was a big fun bag of fresh ideas. Second was inoffensive but naff, despite having a filthy looking Naomi Harris. Third was terrible despite having Keira Knightley thighgasming. Fourth was a mess, despite having Penelope Cruz with a moustache. Not even seen the last.

You are missing absolutely nothing with the last one. Its as by the numbers as you can get and it has this "oh yeah we still have to finish left over plot threads...meh" moment in the last ten minutes where it just resolves everything left open in the franchise straight out of the left field and by god am I glad I'm not a fan because that must have been incredibly unsatisfying for those who are.

It feels like the whole movie through they were hesitantly keeping the door open for a sequel, only to have it finish off as if its the final film for the franchise (and by those merits, what an absolute shit last film!) and then have it not be the case with some contrived after credits scene. So yeah haha, I don't think anyone part of this franchise knows what the hell they want to do with it anymore.

But you know what? Worst of all? I quite enjoyed it hehehehe, mostly for nostalgia sake though as I grew up with the Pirates films meh but I don't regret watching it.

 

[09philj]

To quote my favourite film critic:
"Pirates one was bad, Pirates two was worse, Pirates 3 was a crime against cinema, Pirates four was just dull"

The Red Letter Media Guys?

The BBC's Mark Kermode. His distaste for Pirates of the Carribean is mild compared to his undying hatred of the collected works of Michael Bay and the Sex and the City Movies.

 

[bjj hero]

And when I go to the movies, I usually dont have to pay (as its usually a family affair) and I get a burger to eat, and I love that part no matter what.

Can I get adopted?

I loved the first pirates film and the most recent one was good, if not quite up to the standards of the first. My son loved it.

Ive not really seen the others, although I must have seen bits as I know roughly how they go... we did play through lego POTC.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

I rather like the first one as a decent adventure movie with some chewy hamminess.

Don't care much for the rest.

 

[maninahat]

First was a big fun bag of fresh ideas. Second was inoffensive but naff, despite having a filthy looking Naomi Harris. Third was terrible despite having Keira Knightley thighgasming. Fourth was a mess, despite having Penelope Cruz with a moustache. Not even seen the last.

You are missing absolutely nothing with the last one. Its as by the numbers as you can get and it has this "oh yeah we still have to finish left over plot threads...meh" moment in the last ten minutes where it just resolves everything left open in the franchise straight out of the left field and by god am I glad I'm not a fan because that must have been incredibly unsatisfying for those who are.

It feels like the whole movie through they were hesitantly keeping the door open for a sequel, only to have it finish off as if its the final film for the franchise (and by those merits, what an absolute shit last film!) and then have it not be the case with some contrived after credits scene. So yeah haha, I don't think anyone part of this franchise knows what the hell they want to do with it anymore.

But you know what? Worst of all? I quite enjoyed it hehehehe, mostly for nostalgia sake though as I grew up with the Pirates films meh but I don't regret watching it.

Does it at least have an attractive women doing something weird? I don't think I could face another one without it.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

The first one is one of my favourite movies. Some stuff has finally surpassed it, but it's still one I have a raging Nostalgia boner for. It had just the right balance between fun characters, classic YARRR PIRATES stuff, and a sprinkle of the supernatural to add some spice to it. It was fantastic.

The second one was pretty terrible, IMO. Way too much supernatural stuff, not enough piratey stuff, and some of the scenes went on for too long (that 15 minute fight on the wheel, etc). And the out-of-nowhere twist ending was just irritating. It really felt like "Squid Man Versus pirates" rather than an actual pirate movie.

The third one was alright. Not great, not good, but alright. The opening segment in Singapore was perfect, but the rest was still too much "Magical stuff versus pirates" than a pirate movie with some supernatural bits to it.

Stranger tides was alright, better than the second or third. It managed to recapture a hint of what made the original so good. But just a hint. It wasn't great, but it at least gave me some hope.

...and I haven't seen the Dead Men Tell No Tales, but my brother gave me the rundown of some of the big points in the movie and I was paralyzed with laughter and then pain. Not only are some plot points so contrived they're disgusting, but it makes no sense time-wise because of one character's actual identity.

Spoiler

Apparently the discount-will-turner knockoff is Will turner's kid. So the movie takes place what like 20 years after the third movie? And Jack hasn't aged? And the age of piracy that was on its last legs for three movies managed to last another 20 years? What?

So really, I'm just mad that the series has been dragged out with only one actually good movie, and one average one that gave me hope that it didn't deserve.

 

[dscross]

As you say, they got worse as it progressed. The first film was by far the best.

However, I would differentiate from the matrix in that MT attempted to be an overarching trilogy, which didn't really work because the first one seemed like a clear ending. PotC though, could easily have been a few well written self contained stories and no one would have minded. Pirate tales YARRR! However, it didn't work out that way, as it turned into just another cash cow. Ho hum. Modern big budget movies make me sad.

 

[EscapeGoat_v1legacy]

I think describing the series as being like The Matrix is a perfect analogy. Curse of the Black Pearl is a brilliant film that I could quite happily watch whenever and it easily stands apart from the rest of the films. I didn't mind Dead Man's Chest all too much and The World's End I think has enough awareness of its own cheese to be charming at least, if not a good film by any stretch. It's watchable and a decent bit of fun, I'd say. On Stranger Tides though was awful; I properly wasted my money going to see that in the cinema. As for the new film, I have no patience left for the series so I've not bothered with seeing it and I don't plan to.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

To quote my favourite film critic:
"Pirates one was bad, Pirates two was worse, Pirates 3 was a crime against cinema, Pirates four was just dull"

The Red Letter Media Guys?

The BBC's Mark Kermode. His distaste for Pirates of the Carribean is mild compared to his undying hatred of the collected works of Michael Bay and the Sex and the City Movies.

He sounds like he is just jaded

 

[Laughing Man]

Well, you can say what you want about the Pirates Movies but it did gives us this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7TJ9H80UhM

and to be honest when I saw this live a few weeks ago, doesn't matter how bad you think the movies were or were not, THIS was fucking amazing.

As for the movies, liked them all some could have been better some could have been worse. My only issue with the movies was the rate at which Pirate Curses or mythos seemed to crop up. It should have been more of a world building set up like Marvel's movies, which it clearly never was designed to be.

Pirates one was an unexpected huge hit, two got green lit then it turned out with a little bloating here and there they could stretch it to two movies, four was obviously a cash grab, that had no real intention on building on anything that happened in the first 3 movies, hence all the new characters and the very limited number of original folk in it and five was a test run to see if Pirates can still pull the numbers. Tell everyone that it's a movie who's plot rounds out the arcs of everyone's favourite characters, if it pulls in tons of cash then six gets green lit if it doesn't well five was only meant to give an end to the franchise.

Although not meant to be historical it would have been nice to have had a trilogy with the first and first half of the second dealing with the pirate curse mythos shit and then the last movie dealing with the reality that pirates were a done thing, the reality of the world, the edges of the map being drawn, the Royal Navy and advancement of tech. 2 and 3 kind of tried to do that, well it hinted at it and then it was all forgotten about in four and five.

 

[skywolfblue]

I enjoyed the third one the most. It has a lot of really wacky stuff. Sure the plot doesn't make much sense, but it's fun. The ships dueling in the middle of the maelstrom is absolutely glorious!

 

[Hawki]

2 is very interesting to see and I think it's a great sequel, although there's no denying it does feel different from PotC. I don't know exactly what it is, but it is different. Perhaps it's because PotC 1 was more of a "isolated" story whereas PotC 2/3 have whole government factions and corporations now involved. PotC was more personal but 2/3 dealt with conflicts on a large scale.

There's that, but I'd say if there's one thing that PotC 2 truly differs from PotC 1 in, it's its tone. It's much darker. Darker in its use of colour (compare the introductions of both films for instance), more sombre in its music (e.g. Davy Jones's theme), darker in its content (the kraken, how Jones's crew execute the surviving seamen, etc.), and a more downer ending. PotC 2 is wedded closely to PotC 3 in terms of plot (as you say, PotC 1 feels far more stand-alone), but it lacks the OTT aspects of PotC 3. Overall, it's part of why I still quite like Dead Man's Chest.

PotC 3 was awesome. I don't care what anybody says. Everyone was saying the plot was too bloated but honestly, so you had to use your brain a little. You guys are seriously gonna complain about that? Furthermore, although perhaps it was a heavy-handed way of doing it, the purpose for all these 5 minute alliances and last minute backstabs is because the movie is trying to illustrate the fear everyone has. Everyone's trying to survive, and many, even Will Turner, are turning on each other just so they can accomplish their goals. Even Beckett makes commentary on this. BTW, Beckett's one of the best movie villains I've ever seen. He doesn't get enough credit.

Not complaining about using my brain, complaining about it cramming far too much in. I mean, this is the film where the kraken dies off-screen, but we spend a significant chunk building up the Breathren Court (which has never even been mentioned prior to this film), and bloated in the sense that, IMO, the special effects take over the story. Yes, the maelstrom sequence is a visual marvel, but it has a feeling of hollowness to it. Give me Jack vs. Barbossa or even the kraken battle of the previous film any day.

As for Beckett, he's...fine, I guess. At the very least, he does a good job of being a person you fear, even though he's very quiet about it. I'd rank Barbossa and Jones above him on the villains scale, but Beckett takes a respectable third. As in, above Blackbeard. Seriously, how do you make Blackbeard boring?

I'm sorry but there is only one PotC as far as I'm concerned. The rest can go and eat one. Also you call 3 bloated? Are you forgetting that completely unrelated 45 minutes of island nonsense in DMC in which literally [in]nothing[/i] happens?

The island? Okay, technically the cannibals could be cut out, but Tia Dalma is in herself relevant. It's got character development, worldbuilding, directs them to Jones, etc. Honestly, it's a bit of action that I feel complements the film. In PotC 3, the feeling of bloat comes from too much going on, and even then struggling to fit it all in (see the kraken again).

Norrington stuff

That's quite a good write-up. I don't remember Norrington that much in PotC 3, but credit where credit is due, I like him in the first film. He could have very easily been made a character that the audience is meant to dislike, so WillxLiz becomes more clear cut, but that doesn't happen. He's charming, intelligent, and a good man at the end of the day, just not the man that was meant for Elizabeth.

I always felt like that bit was a bit of a red herring. Not to say that Keira's character couldn't have been crushing on Depp's to some degree, but I think the truth is a bit more subtle than people give the movies credit for. A lot of people like to cite the compass for Elizabeth's feelings for Jack, but I don't think it's functioning on that wavelength. The first moments of the first film establish her as pretty much a pirate fangirl, down to the belief that Will was a pirate arguably starting her interest in him. Later, when she goes onto the Pearl she's quoting the code of the brethren to Barbossa and his crew and throughout the movie she is repeatedly frustrated by the various pirates not acting the way she expects them to. Her final line is even smugly saying that Will wasn't a blacksmith, he was a pirate. The only one to really fit her expectations was Jack, who she and Will both came to respect for by the end of that same movie.

The compass pointing to Jack represented that inner fangirl in her. She didn't really want to be with Jack romantically, she wanted the brand of piracy that he represented. Cue the end of the film wherein she betrays Jack to save everyone else, and his response? "Pirate." She got what she wanted, and the grittier side of what that entailed tore her up. Then in the next movie she fully throws her lot in with the pirates and ends up at the top of the pirate food chain. Over the course of the trilogy she slowly transitions from pirate fangirl to the embodiment of her idealization of piracy. So when I see that compass needle, I don't see "she wants Jack more than anything in the world", I see "she wants to be the kind of pirate that Jack is". It fits her character arc. First she admires pirates, then she wants to be one, then she becomes one.

I always saw it as more her having an infatuation with Jack, that bereft of Will, began to surface. That would explain why the compass leads her as far as Isla Cruces, but on the island itself, it starts shifting to Jack as her feelings happen to surface at that point in time (which, ironically, might be offset by Jack actually having enough clarity to find the heart, or whether it is indeed pointing to her, and she is indeed on it because the compass got her that far. But, that's a good theory up above.