Should Diversity be addressed within the narrative or should it be a non-issue?

[Skatologist]

I think what people tend to forget is that the generic straight white male protagonist is token too. The industry has a hard time coming up with any non-token characters, "diverse" or otherwise.

I don't know how the "generic straight white male protagonist" is token, so I'll politely ask what your definition of token is.


OP: Like what many others had said, it depends on context and what better fits for the game. Here may be the general rule for me at least: Games centered on maybe being more realistic or historical may want to address diversity or display social commentary while more wackier, outlandish ones could completely abandon doing that and make it a non issue.

 

[Vault101]

[sub/]whew...I kinda lost my shit there[/sub]

Absolutely. After all, we all look upon as Bernie Madoff as one of the best of our time. The free market can do no wrong, artistic integrity be damned!

Now to wait for somebody to propose that they'll be putting in LGBT characters, ruining artistic vision of a completely sterile and lifeless game, because they think that its a good marketing decision since homophobia is totes over, rite m8?

and you know...what with "same love" being a number one hit if we assume that EA included gay romances in ME3 as part of a cynical way to drum up good PR and that if they made Lara croft and sam acutally a couple in the next Tomb Raider because "gay is in" now..

would that make it ok? because its not like would be doing it out of a sense of inclusivity...that would be the worst

I think what people tend to forget is that the generic straight white male protagonist is token too. The industry has a hard time coming up with any non-token characters, "diverse" or otherwise.

I think youre getting token mixed up with stereotypical

 

[Silvanus]

Two words. Market demographics. Is writing a romance sub-plot for a LGBTQ character profitable? Which by the most recent survey in just America is 2% of the population? No? Then we focus on the pew pew's and other things.

Sometimes, artists are not solely motivated by profit-and-only-profit.

If people want the video-game medium to actually excel, and to reach its artistic potential, then we'll have to apply some artistic standards. This means not simply mimicking the biggest sellers.

 

[Netrigan]

Sometimes you've got to Fake It before you Make It.

Tokenism isn't ideal but it's better than no representation, and it signals people that you're ready to diversify which can lead to proper representation.

If you know much about learning to write, good writing just doesn't spring forth from nothing. You have to start somewhere and that somewhere isn't very good. You have to write your way through all those bad pages before you can get good at it.

I'd imagine figuring out how to deal with gay characters is much the same way. How do you convey the information in a naturalistic manner? It could be no more than an appreciative glance as your character walks up to a bar. It could be a casual mention of a boyfriend. It could be a big romantic moment. Or it could be something you never work into the story at all. Expect many people to bobble the ball until they figure out the angles.

 

[Vault101]

I could be, run me down the differences.

this is obviously just my personal take on it and not gospel:

Token-ism to me is basically "we throw one in there and then were done" like Smurfette or the one black guy, this is particularly problematic if they have very narrow/stereotypical traits, like for example the woman being the "straight one" of the team

so I guess things can be stereotypical and token-esque at the same time

I mean by definition its not always avoidable or even bad, it just gets very noticeable in some cases...I mean there are so many smurfs yet only ONE of them is a woman?

 

[DC_78]

SNIPP

Was not my intention to offend. Yes discrimination exists, but not for the reasons you want to site with representation in media.

Now is it right LGBTQ is demonized? No. I fight against that type of stuff in real life. But again you brush off the market demographics like "meh I don't care." Well a lot of folks do and a lot of jobs ride on them. Just like a lot of folks are still bigots and think LGBTQ should be not allowed to marry. So a publisher of any product has to balance that as well, whenever they introduce a LGBTQ character. Will it turn off all the Mom and Pop middle Americans from buying their little Suzies this game or take Timmy to see this movie if we feature a LGBTQ main character? How big is that market? 36%? Sucks, but you cannot wish people's bigotry away, and market forces are impersonal and all powerful. Do you want this type of tokenism if it leads to the companies that do it selling less copies? Because if so then you want something magical.

In my opinion it is pandering and tokenism to write in sub-plots for any character that does not need them to represent another PoV. I read your examples above.

The "conventionally attractive lesbian and the butch lesbian." That is great. More power to them, if the story calls for a romance plot then have the options if the budget allows it. If not I would cut the minor stuff that does not effect the plot out. Boo's relationship misadventure in a bar, for instance, gets cut for advancing the main plot of the heterosexual couple. It is the way of the business world and that offends you?

Would you be turned off if they introduced a conservative christian into OITNB to diversify the show and be inclusive? And no, not a caricature villain or bully. A nice sweet religious bible thumper that is inoffensive, but preaches to the LGBTQ characters every once in a while? What if they wanted to promote this character because she tested well and started focusing sub-plots on her at the same time cutting Boo's for budget reasons? Would that offend you? Despite the show now reaching a wider audience?

So the more representation that is pandering to one group turns off another. That causes even more controversy. More headaches for PR. And that is if the character is received well by the group it "represents." I see how this is horrible and I can wish it was not the way of the world. LGBTQ deserve to be represented. Yet if the story does not call for an in depth review of the character's sexuality, just like if a story does not need to go into detail on a character's religion, who cares? Put that stuff on a bio page somewhere and walk on. Because you have been represented.

 

[Areloch]

I have to wonder.

If you were to go about your normal day, doing the things as you do - getting ready for work, hit the grocery store, maybe see a movie after dinner and so on - but every day, you have a random person come up to you and soliloquise about how they are gay. Would that serve any purpose for function to your day other than confirming that "Yes, gay people exist"?

Because that is what this sort of requirement-of-mention feels like it would be to me. We know gay people exist, trans people, and everyone else. We don't need a daily reminder for that to continue to be true. I don't see how games should be different.

As others have said, if interpersonal drama is a main part of the story, and some of your characters' genders, sexual orientation and so on would be relevant to the issue, then I see no problem at all with the characters bringing it up.

But if you're playing a high action game like Call of Duty, where there's very little downtime, and characters exist purely to push you through the action, having one character stop to talk about how they like men would almost always be irrelevant and serving only to check off a 'diversity' box on a form somewhere.

 

[Vault101]

Now is it right LGBTQ is demonized? No. I fight against that type of stuff in real life. But again you brush off the market demographics like "meh I don't care." Well a lot of folks do and a lot of jobs ride on them. Just like a lot of folks are still bigots and think LGBTQ should be not allowed to marry. So a publisher of any product has to balance that as well, whenever they introduce a LGBTQ character. Will it turn off all the Mom and Pop middle Americans from buying their little Suzies this game or take Timmy to see this movie if we feature a LGBTQ main character? How big is that market? 36%? Sucks, but you cannot wish people's bigotry away, and market forces are impersonal and all powerful. Do you want this type of tokenism if it leads to the companies that do it selling less copies? Because if so then you want something magical.

yes they are a thing, yes its something we have to (to some extent) accept, like for example shows avoiding that kind of thing to due syndication is less than progressive countries

but the problem is it feels like a disingenuous argument

[I/]artistic is EVERYTHING! oh but except when markets and capitalism is concerned![/I] its like you people can't make up your damn minds

back to what I said before...if Lara and Sam and confirmed as for realises gay in the next tomb raider being of gay being "trendy and in" does that make it ok?

[quote/]In my opinion it is pandering and tokenism to write in sub-plots for any character that does not need them to represent another PoV. I read your examples above.[/quote]
that's....fairly arbitrary

[quote/]The "conventionally attractive lesbian and the butch lesbian." That is great. More power to them, if the story calls for a romance plot then have the options if the budget allows it. If not I would cut the minor stuff that does not effect the plot out. Boo's relationship misadventure in a bar, for instance, gets cut for advancing the main plot of the heterosexual couple. It is the way of the business world and that offends you? [/quote]
that depnds on what kind of show your talking about (in this case the hetero romance actually isn't the main one...or its not the most interesting)

OITNB is ensemble show, it has a large cast of characters who all get their "part" so youre example doesn't really apply, and again unessicary subplots isn't pander...in fact there's really nothing wrong with subplots

[quote/]Would you be turned off if they introduced a conservative christian into OITNB to diversify the show and be inclusive? And no, not a caricature villain or bully.[/quote]
oh....well dogget was hilarious and fun to watch...

[quote/]A nice sweet religious bible thumper that is inoffensive, but preaches to the LGBTQ characters every once in a while? What if they wanted to promote this character because she tested well and started focusing sub-plots on her at the same time cutting Boo's for budget reasons? Would that offend you? Despite the show now reaching a wider audience?[/quote]
1. no of coarse it fucking wouldn't

2. this show wouldn't do such a thing because its creators have a VERY clear idea about what it is

3. youre thinking about this in too simplistic terms. Its al about framing.... OITNB has characters that are nuanced, the prison councillor Healy is mysoganistic and actually believes "lesbians are going to take over the world" he feels the world has emasculated him...yet he's also kinda sympathetic,

[quote/]So the more representation that is pandering to one group turns off another.[/quote]
this is why it really depends on the thing in question....that's hwy when a soap opera here tried a gay romance It faild because the only people who would take notice of a soap opera are mums

[quote/] Yet if the story does not call for an in depth review of the character's sexuality, just like if a story does not need to go into detail on a character's religion, who cares? Put that stuff on a bio page somewhere and walk on. Because you have been represented.[/quote]
that's not representation though, or at least its footnote stuff...which is fine, but there's no reason we LWAYS have to fall back on subtext

 

[Vault101]

Ok, that's kinda what i thought. But i mean, how different are all the copypasta straight white protagonists from that definition? Apart from the lack of obligation i mean.
.

because theres lots of them...I mean the "straight man" (figuratively speaking) is a thing in of itself, the straight man amongst wackier characters...but even then a lot of them are male (and white) (see the movie dodgeball)

it would be like the norm would be a cast of mostly crazy woman and the token "straight guy" except the variation where they aren't the main protagonist but the "wet blanket" (at worse) like Gamorah from Gaurdians of the Galaxy, I haven't seen the film but I get the impression she's "serious" while starlord and the like are..less so

women not being allowed to be funny or flawed in another thing

 

[Adam Lester]

If video games are an art form, then we need to allow the creators of said work do as they please. If it doesn't rub you the right way, don't buy it.

Well, I say if it's such an issue, those that feel so strongly about it should take care of the problems themselves instead of stamping their feet and waiting for the mean ol' patriarchal cisgender males to take care of the problem for them.

Take cinema, for example. John Waters and Derek Jarman didn't wait for Hollywood to cater to them, they just went for it.

 

[Adam Lester]

If video games are an art form, then we need to allow the creators of said work do as they please. If it doesn't rub you the right way, don't buy it.

Well, I say if it's such an issue, those that feel so strongly about it should take care of the problems themselves instead of stamping their feet and waiting for the mean ol' patriarchal cisgender males to take care of the problem for them.

Take cinema, for example. John Waters and Derek Jarman didn't wait for Hollywood to cater to them, they just went for it.

 

[Adam Lester]

Sorry about the double-post, by the by.

 

[Vault101]

She is, gamorah i mean, although she has some decent motivation and backstory to flesh her out a bit. I think what's going on there is people are trying to make up for the abhorrent portrayal of women in movies in the black-and-white days, so everyone defaults the the polar opposite of the hysterical hapless woman cliche, and that's where we get the super-serious, independent, emotionally distant woman cliche. Be nice if we could break out of this cliche-driven artistic rut we're in as a nation, but for that to happen, we'd need to take artistic risks, and that means financial risk, and nobody wants to do that

yeah, I mean I'm not criticising Gomorrah completely (Rita from Edge of Tomorrow is quite similar) but women often get put in those roles...which can somtimes lead to "skylar white" syndrome

It may very well be a "waryness" of portraying women, it can also be pure numbers. You have one woman she has to carry everything, I do feel there is this tendency to make them "brilliant" or hypercompetant (ala Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite) and I'm all for competent women...there just needs to be room for flaws, there needs to be women who can be competant but also funny or unattractive or just a little messed up, and there is only a small niche for that, like Mellisa Mcarthy or too a lesser extent Rebel Wilson (who's very existence is a mystery to me)

 

[DC_78]

yes they are a thing, yes its something we have to (to some extent) accept, like for example shows avoiding that kind of thing to due syndication is less than progressive countries

but the problem is it feels like a disingenuous argument

[I/]artistic is EVERYTHING! oh but except when markets and capitalism is concerned![/I] its like you people can't make up your damn minds

back to what I said before...if Lara and Sam and confirmed as for realises gay in the next tomb raider being of gay being "trendy and in" does that make it ok?

You are equating my personal views in art with the market's or with Gamergate. I have no problem with ANY artist taking a risk and making what they want. I encourage it. I dislike however outside pressure forcing change for a minority to be token represented over an artistic vision. I dislike the appearance of pandering, like you describe in the next Tomb Raider, but I understand wanting to do it if it came from within the writer's own vision. I am also a realist in the fact that the market for any consumer art, like blockbuster movies and AAA games, has to be considered. Indies not so much. They can do whatever they like, and if it hits big in the mainstream? Great!

that's....fairly arbitrary

How so? If they have just thrown in a new character that exists to be this cultural representation why should they get a sub-plot? Maybe a backstory. Sure. But an entire minor story arch? Nope. Just my personal tastes.

that depnds on what kind of show your talking about (in this case the hetero romance actually isn't the main one...or its not the most interesting)

OITNB is ensemble show, it has a large cast of characters who all get their "part" so youre example doesn't really apply, and again unessicary subplots isn't pander...in fact there's really nothing wrong with subplots

1. no of coarse it fucking wouldn't

2. this show wouldn't do such a thing because its creators have a VERY clear idea about what it is

3. youre thinking about this in too simplistic terms. Its al about framing.... OITNB has characters that are nuanced, the prison councillor Healy is mysoganistic and actually believes "lesbians are going to take over the world" he feels the world has emasculated him...yet he's also kinda sympathetic,

I will assume OITNB is Orange is the New Black? I do not watch it myself, sorry, so my examples will be generalised.

this is why it really depends on the thing in question....that's why when a soap opera here tried a gay romance It failed because the only people who would take notice of a soap opera are mums

Good for that soap opera, but again the market spoke. Now should we try and make them do it again in a few years? Should we be offended? Should we try and get them to reverse the change?

that's not representation though, or at least its footnote stuff...which is fine, but there's no reason we ALWAYS have to fall back on subtext

that depends on what kind of show you're talking about

I'll just leave that quote from you here.

If Sally the Space Marine is the star of StarTrooper Wars: Aliens 15 and she is written as a lesbian character from the get go, and she goes through the entire movie killing aliens and watching her crew mates die. How do we imply she is a lesbian? A flashback to her dating someone? Want to give her a three minute sex scene in the engine room with Becky the engineer before an alien kills Becky? No that is kinda sexist ala Tropes vs. Women and all. How about a passionate kiss before she hits the escape pod and sends Becky away. There sure.

Or you know you could just have her look at a picture on her night stand with her kissing a woman for ten seconds. Simple, easy, and does not scream "Look a Lesbian!" Subtlety in writing is an art that few writers seem to posses and even fewer critics seem to look for. A character's sexuality is not there defining component in most stories to be worn on their sleeve and all too often the media likes to try and make it so.

 

[Vault101]

You are equating my personal views in art with the market's or with Gamergate. I have no problem with ANY artist taking a risk and making what they want. I encourage it. I dislike however outside pressure forcing change for a minority to be token represented over an artistic vision. I dislike the appearance of pandering

and how is it any worse or [b/]more of a problem[/b] then having to pander to *perceived* market ideas? again its the same bloody thing, people have created a bogeyman when they can't see the real one...or worse act like its somehow OK

[quote/]like you describe in the next Tomb Raider, but I understand wanting to do it if it came from within the writer's own vision. I am also a realist in the fact that the market for any consumer art, like blockbuster movies and AAA games, has to be considered.[/quote]
and yet people seem so eager to say "nuh huh! you can't have s thing! the market says so" now again I know its a thing, but its not actually infallible

[quote/]to be this cultural representation why should they get a sub-plot? Maybe a backstory. Sure. But an entire minor story arch? Nope. Just my personal tastes.[/quote]
why the fuck not? subplots are good...in fact if they DON'T get anything beyond "heres an other" then that's tokenism


[quote/]Good for that soap opera, but again the market spoke. Now should we try and make them do it again in a few years? Should we be offended? Should we try and get them to reverse the change?[/quote]
did it though? cause I don't know about anyone else but this was one of the few times I (and a considerable number of girls in the boarding school I lived at at the time) sat down to watch that shit, now at the time it was probably for thr wrong reasons...but we watched

and if its driven by homophobia that doesn't make it ok....home and away (the sitcom in question) lives in its own sanitised version of reality, a gay couple would not actually be a big deal

[quote/]

If Sally the Space Marine is the star of StarTrooper Wars: Aliens 15 and she is written as a lesbian character from the get go, and she goes through the entire movie killing aliens and watching her crew mates die. How do we imply she is a lesbian? A flashback to her dating someone? Want to give her a three minute sex scene in the engine room with Becky the engineer before an alien kills Becky? No that is kinda sexist ala Tropes vs. Women and all. How about a passionate kiss before she hits the escape pod and sends Becky away. There sure.

Or you know you could just have her look at a picture on her night stand with her kissing a woman for ten seconds. Simple, easy, and does not scream "Look a Lesbian!" Subtlety in writing is an art that few writers seem to posses and even fewer critics seem to look for. A character's sexuality is not there defining component in most stories to be worn on their sleeve and all too often the media likes to try and make it so.[/quote]
so all those hetero sex scenes in mvoies...the ones that aren't essential....they're ok...but as for the gays we can't have that?

you know what? I like sex, a little but of sex in my fiction can be nice, even if it isn't completely nessicary, I don't want to mills and boons that shit but a little sex is nice

so to answer you're question

[b/]it depends?[/b] maybe its true but we never actually see it, maybe its all down to subtext, maybe we get a kiss, maybe we get some full on zero-g lesbian sex (I mean commander shepard can get it on with a space alien can't he?)

so [b/]it just depends,[/b] really on the whim of the writers, maybe they have legit reasons for keeping it down to subtext and that's fine..I mean Xena was from the 90's

what offended me was the arrogance in which you seemed to dictate weather or not discriminations still existed, what is or isn't pandering and I'm getting vibes of it in regards to what is/isn't acceptable

 

[DC_78]

Quoting multiple sub quotes turned this into a FUBAR post. Please forgive the formatting.

so all those hetero sex scenes in mvoies...the ones that aren't essential....they're ok...but as for the gays we can't have that?

you know what? I like sex, a little but of sex in my fiction can be nice, even if it isn't completely nessicary, I don't want to mills and boons that shit but a little sex is nice

so to answer you're question

[b/]it depends?[/b] maybe its true but we never actually see it, maybe its all down to subtext, maybe we get a kiss, maybe we get some full on zero-g lesbian sex (I mean commander shepard can get it on with a space alien can't he?)

so [b/]it just depends,[/b] really on the whim of the writers, maybe they have legit reasons for keeping it down to subtext and that's fine..I mean Xena was from the 90's

what offended me was the arrogance in which you seemed to dictate weather or not discriminations still existed, what is or isn't pandering and I'm getting vibes of it in regards to what is/isn't acceptable

Now do not put words into my mouth, okay?

Again I am not dictating anything. My opinions are based on my personal experience living in the Midwest. In fact near my neighborhood, I could take you bar hopping in St. Louis. We have a lovely area called the Grove that caters to LGBTQ and inclusive bars and restaurants. Wonderful neighborhood, wonderful people.

Now back on topic. I fail to see how pandering to the market is a bad thing? That is how you sell something in large numbers. That is how the artist eats. That is how a sequel gets made that can take more risks. Pandering to a minority might make you feel warm and fuzzy, but does not even guarantee that the artist will at the least break even.

I think you are equating infallible with fair in the market. A passion project can break out and make back gang busters on an investment. But it is not a safe or even wise investment. The market wants a safe investment with a guaranteed return. That is why passion projects are so rare in any consumer driven media.

Please quote the entire sentence next time if you wish to rebut an argument. If they are meant to BE tokenism then why should they get a sub-plot? Again my views on pandering for pandering sake are already established. I dislike it. That does not mean I want it done away with. I just find it jarring and clumsy.

did it though? cause I don't know about anyone else but this was one of the few times I (and a considerable number of girls in the boarding school I lived at at the time) sat down to watch that shit, now at the time it was probably for thr wrong reasons...but we watched

and if its driven by homophobia that doesn't make it ok....home and away (the sitcom in question) lives in its own sanitised version of reality, a gay couple would not actually be a big deal

So maybe they were trying to branch into a new audience. Did you respond? Did you write a letter or send an email to let the producers or network know that the gay relationship interested you? Did you put forth the effort to influence the market?

No homophobia is never okay. Maybe the main audience of Home & Away just were not interested or could not connect to the story as presented? It would make for an interesting case study perhaps?

 

[Vault101]

Now do not put words into my mouth, okay?

Again I am not dictating anything. My opinions are based on my personal experience living in the Midwest. In fact near my neighborhood, I could take you bar hopping in St. Louis. We have a lovely area called the Grove that caters to LGBTQ and inclusive bars and restaurants. Wonderful neighborhood, wonderful people.

so discrimination doesn't exist because you don't see it? come the hell on

[quote/]Now back on topic. I fail to see how pandering to the market is a bad thing? That is how you sell something in large numbers. That is how the artist eats. That is how a sequel gets made that can take more risks. Pandering to a minority might make you feel warm and fuzzy, but does not even guarantee that the artist will at the least break even.[/quote]
I don't get it

you defend artistic integrity for this (irrational) fear that something might get diversified for the sake of it...yet artistic interigry goes out the window when it comes to the market?

YES the market is a thing YES you have to take thease things into account

but doggedly following the market at the expense of "artistic integrity" will not always guarantee you will sell, and [b/]reasonable[/b][footnote/]if we have to be palatable to the masses[/footnote] variation does not garuntee a flop

if Women in lead roles were box office poison then Gravity, Frozen and the Hunger games would not have done so well