Should Every Game Allow You to Choose Your Gender?

[Evonisia]

I find this article to basically be an elaboration on the last three weeks of Let's Drown Out, and I'm fine with that.

Much like with Jim's recent Jimquisitions, I like that the stance is presented without insults.

 

[Lightknight]

Right, I generally view the avatar I'm playing with as a shell or tool of manipulating the environment rather than an actual person.

If the person behaves too differently from me during cutscenes then that's where it becomes a bit of an issue. Sometimes I can just slip into a bit of role-play and other times it's too different.

Interesting article. Thanks.

 

[DrOswald]

If you want your main character to be bland, have little personality, and sabotage the narrative of your game - by all means let the player choose the gender.

Only Mass Effect has been able to have a strong customizable character, and that's due to both good writing and excellent voice acting. No other game comes close.

If it's a game that's more about the content than the story like Skyrim then a blank customizable character is fine. But if you want your game to be narrative driven, a customizable character sabotages this goal.

Better to have a game like The Witcher where your character is already a character and then they let you choose stuff than a game where the main character is so characterless that even their gender can be switched without any impact to the story.

Also Yahztee, you got DANGEROUSLY close to addressing Gamergate!

Clearly someone's never played Saints Row...

The Saints Row main character is pretty damned bland. It works, but the main character is by far the least interesting character in saints row, being more of a blank slate for the other more interesting characters to play off of. You can give them personality, but that personality does not fit into the actual game in any meaningful way. It is a smoke screen, but a damn good one. It works and it works well, but that doesn't mean Saints Row has an interesting main character.

Are you talking about the first game? Because the Saints Row Boss I've played since Saints Row 2 is a sarcastic smart ass who will beat you to fangirl over Burt Reynolds one minute and take offense at being called a sociopath the next. The Boss is full to bursting with personality.

2, 3 and 4. Can't really tell you anything interesting about the boss. He/she did a couple things every once in a while that were funny or interesting, but I would not say the boss is bursting with personality. I couldn't tell you the personality of the boss after playing 3 games worth of Saints Row. I can tell you the personality of several of the secondary characters, but the boss is by my estimation and experience at best a caricature. As generic as a mannequin dressed in a pimp suit. No matter how you dress it up it is still generic at the core.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[manic_depressive13]

When I was seven I played Tekken 3 against my brother, who was explaining to me that girls are shit at everything. They suck at video games and they're weaker than boys. So I decided to pick a female character to beat him with. I had four choices, all of whom were scantily clad and did a sexy pose at the beginning and end of each match. I wanted to prove that women had value and were just as competent as men, and I was confronted with the reality of how women are perceived by the gaming culture. That shit fucks you up when you're a kid.

I guess what I'm saying is: Yeah, it's easy to say representation isn't an issue when it isn't an issue that affects you. I don't think the answer is to have every RPG allow you to choose your gender. It's obvious those games have been written with a male default anyway. Just look at DS2 with Chloanne's innuendo, Emerald Waifu and the theme of power hungry queens manipulating the kings. Yeah I get called a "monarch" when I ascend the throne but it's quite clear that I'm supposed to be a dude. It would be nice to have actual meaningful female and minority representation in games.

 

[f1r2a3n4k5]

I agree 100% that it's the developer's prerogative to assign a gender when it's integral to the story.

This brings up a good point about placeholder characters though.

The way I see it, most of these games with customizable "placeholder" gender/race take the tack of, "Pick whatever you'd like. There's no advantages/disadvantages to either."

But perhaps that's the incorrect road to take. Maybe developers should allow customizable features, but also pay some attention to the details. While we are constantly fed "equality," men and women have vastly different experiences to the same events and different resources available to overcome them. I should like to see games explore this more to both allow and give the "placeholder" choice meaning. Even if the details are minor.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm wonder what a good middle ground for female representation is.

I'm not sure there's any "middle ground" here because it's addressing issues virtually nobody's asking about. Granted, Yahtzee's writing gets more reasonable as it gets more specific, but virtually nobody has said anything akin to "all games should have selectable gender." Hell, Anita Sarkeesian ("even," indeed) is a fairly moderate voice, so that seems a weird sort of comparison.

Though she does offer several solutions for gender representation within her videos.

Clearly someone's never played Saints Row...

Or they're just knocking down a strawman.

TBH, while I like your Saints Row example, the fact is there isn't a huge issue with characters who would be ruined or sapped of personality by allowing selectable gender. Two (or more) voices reading the same thing would afford the same personality as Saints Row, but many characters aren't that good anyway. Even the lauded Mass Effect series. You could replace most of the game's characters with potted plants or have Keanu Reeves read all the parts and get the same effect.

John Marston could be Jane Marston, a golden retriever, or a finely crafted piece of wood for its impact on 95% of the story.

I mean, I'm a big fan of false dichotomoies, but come on. I'm beginning to wonder if the people lauding these characters (even the Witcher) have actually played the games.

 

[Jinjer]

I once asked in the forums about what would constitute a female power fantasy as I have never seen one that was made by women. The responses I got were largely "I don't know" from women and "it'd be just like a male power fantasy" from men. I would honestly like to see one.

Female superhero in her thirties, who manages to run her own successful business, have a happy marriage and 2 kids and still be able to kick criminal ass. Managing to balance a successful career while not alienating the people she loves and doing what she feels is right. Female power fantasy for me right there

 

[bojac6]

Is it important to have a female protagonist to choose from in Assasin's Creed? I can't say. I mostly play games because they're fun and interesting, I don't necessarily need a self-insert, I want to have gameplay that's fun and enjoyable. When I play Risk of Rain, I don't look at the pixels of the Engineer and think if it's a man or a woman. If you do, you have some looking in the mirror to do and ask yourself - why?

Here's the thing. Do you have a niche interest that is sometimes portrayed in media? It's a topic you are very knowledgable about and that you care about deeply, but not something that even most of your friends know a lot about. Like lets say you're really into archery. Then when you see the Avengers, every time Jeremy Renner uses a bow, it pulls you out of the movie, especially the scene where he's falling off of a roof top. That shot is literally not possible. But in other scenes, his stance is off, etc. If you bring it up to your buddies who don't know much about archery, they tell you to stop being so picky.

Another classic example of this is how computers work, especially hacking, in movies. Of course, that's gotten to be so bad, people just accept it. Medicine, especially CPR and defibulators, are portrayed wrong all the time. I once watched Starship Troopers with a friend who is a SWAT officer. He couldn't get passed how stupid the ordinance in that movie was. Of all the issues with the movie, his problem was that the bullets were too small calibre and obviously full metal jacket, when they should have been some kind of I don't even know what, I'm not really a gun guy.

My point is, somebody who lives something is more of an expert and therefore more bothered by inconsistancies than somebody with only a passing familiarity. And a minority is an expert at living life as a minority, especially when it comes to be excluded from mainstream popular culture. When a white guy plays a game that only has a minority character, its a novelty and therefore nothing that pulls him out of the game. It's like an average person watching archery. But when a minority plays a game with a white male protagonist, it's a reminder that the player is a minority. And even if the media is otherwise enjoyed, there's this one thing constantly hanging over it and it pulls the player out. Why is this yet another power fantasy where I'm forced to be a man? Why is the hero so often of European descent? Why can't I have a character to look up to?

And that's why so many white males can say "I don't care abotu a self-insert, I want something fun and enjoyable" and feel like they've contributed. As you said, look in the mirror and ask yourself why. And the answer is I want to play heroes from other walks of life. Sure you can point to games like Risk of Rain and ask who cares, but when it comes to games where there are actually main characters, it does matter.

 

[Something Amyss]

That's not entirely true, unfortunately, and I say that as a feminist. There's always some asshole willing to go to the extreme, and there have been many cases where self proclaimed feminists do exactly what people claim.

Yes, but that doesn't speak to feminism any more than it speaks to Catholics being child molesters, men being wife beaters, and MRAs being misogynistic virgins.

If you're going to rule by the "extremists," then both liberals and conservatives are terrorists, Muslims cut off heads, atheists are genocidal, and black people really are violent thugs. For that matter, nobody should have got mad at Devin Faraci for talking about gamers as terrorists, because gamers are terrorists by this line of reasoning.

But that's absurd. And I doubt many people would be signing off on it.

That's the problem with validating a claim based on a minority, then.

 

[shrekfan246]

A large part of what made Portal work is that both characters were women. Portal 2's fat jokes wouldn't have carried nearly the same weight if Chell had been a dude, because guys are generally seen as not being as insecure about that sort of thing, regardless of the societal reasons for that.

That's actually a really good point, and I'm surprised it didn't occur to me while reading the article. Portal wouldn't have been nearly as fun without GLaDOS' misunderstanding of everything that's human - from the juvenile fat jokes to the fallacy of assuming people could grow attached to anything [http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120621162616/half-life/en/images/3/30/Companion_Cube_p2.png] given she provides the narrative.

Oi!

Don't you be saying anything bad about the Companion Cube!

OT: I kinda think most of us recognize that anyone actually saying "video games are misogynistic" are being disingenuous at best and openly ignorant at worst. I haven't seen that argument come from any of the actual rational people at least. (Yes, yes, they have said there are "misogynistic tropes" blah de blah, but that's not the same thing and it's not always that easy to deny.)

But yes, the point I take is that I want more diversity - That doesn't mean let me choose between a Male/Female toggle. That means have more interesting characters, plots, worlds, tell a more unique narrative using something I'm not quite so used to. Infamous: Second Son managed to have a main character who was Native American and they tied that in to the character's motivations; for all the other problems that game might have had, the player character not being "grizzled middle-aged Caucasian guy" wasn't one of them.

I want more characters that aren't Aiden Pearce, or Mike Thorton, or Desmond Miles/Ezio/Altair/Connor (because somehow they all managed to be the same bland characters despite all being different nationalities and having ostensibly 'different' personalities), or Batman, or Booker DeWitt, or Nomad/Prophet, or Isaac Clarke, or Adam Jensen, or New!Garrett, or Sam Fisher, or Solid Snake, or Geralt, or Marcus Fenix, or Master Chief, or Cole MacGrath, or those guys from Killzone, or Kratos, or Joel, or Nathan Drake, or Grayson Hunt, or Jack Slate, or Chris Redfield, or Niko Bellic, or Edward Carnby, or Soap MacTavish, etc. etc.

Now, I like a lot of those characters and yeah, the cool thing is that there are plenty of characters who totally don't fill that general stereotype as well. Unfortunately sometimes it can just be a little hard to see past all of the gritty, grim faces and/or massive muscle mass.

 

[Amgeo]

I was intrigued by what you brought up about the protagonist having it worse than the damsel. Definitely it would suck for an actual human, but surely there's a difference between being a real person doing the stuff and being a real person making a character do all that stuff?

Also, I think there's actually a lot to be said for "making the ham sandwiches numerically equal to the sausages" as you put it. Perhaps generic media (not just games) will always have generic characters, but maybe if we have a broader definition of "generic" that included all sexes and races and such, then we could internalize the idea of mutual humanity. It's probably not a magic button to make hate go away forever, but really it might do us more good than we realize.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Snip

Somehow I have an issue taking you completely seriously when you have a Dark Souls avatar (a game where you can be a powerful, near demigod-level female character killing absurdly powerful beings) and your quiz completion has a screaming face icon and literally says you're angry.

Calm down, then come back to the discussion.

That's nice.

I obviously really like Dark Souls, but the ability to choose a female avatar is pretty meaningless when the player is a non-character. Meanwhile, you get demure Princess Rhea, demure Firelink firekeeper, demure Dusk of Oolacile, two naked spider ladies and Titsdolyn. The Anor Londo firekeeper and the Onion knight girl were pretty cool though, and I always liked the female undead who sells you moss.

 

[DrOswald]

If you want your main character to be bland, have little personality, and sabotage the narrative of your game - by all means let the player choose the gender.

Only Mass Effect has been able to have a strong customizable character, and that's due to both good writing and excellent voice acting. No other game comes close.

If it's a game that's more about the content than the story like Skyrim then a blank customizable character is fine. But if you want your game to be narrative driven, a customizable character sabotages this goal.

Better to have a game like The Witcher where your character is already a character and then they let you choose stuff than a game where the main character is so characterless that even their gender can be switched without any impact to the story.

Also Yahztee, you got DANGEROUSLY close to addressing Gamergate!

Clearly someone's never played Saints Row...

The Saints Row main character is pretty damned bland. It works, but the main character is by far the least interesting character in saints row, being more of a blank slate for the other more interesting characters to play off of. You can give them personality, but that personality does not fit into the actual game in any meaningful way. It is a smoke screen, but a damn good one. It works and it works well, but that doesn't mean Saints Row has an interesting main character.

Are you talking about the first game? Because the Saints Row Boss I've played since Saints Row 2 is a sarcastic smart ass who will beat you to fangirl over Burt Reynolds one minute and take offense at being called a sociopath the next. The Boss is full to bursting with personality.

2, 3 and 4. Can't really tell you anything interesting about the boss. He/she did a couple things every once in a while that were funny or interesting, but I would not say the boss is bursting with personality. I couldn't tell you the personality of the boss after playing 3 games worth of Saints Row. I can tell you the personality of several of the secondary characters, but the boss is by my estimation and experience at best a caricature. As generic as a mannequin dressed in a pimp suit. No matter how you dress it up it is still generic at the core.

But that is just my opinion.

Well, the Saints Row wiki has a pretty detailed write up of their personality: http://saintsrow.wikia.com/The_Protagonist
I guess you and I just saw it differently? To me, the boss was a more vibrant character than any that Bioware has managed to come up with.

That is why I mentioned that was my opinion. Much more than any other art form how you experience video games are influenced by what you bring to the table.

I read the personality section of that wiki page, and it basically confirms everything I already thought about the protagonist: Power hungry, prone to and delights in excessive/pointless violence, loyal to those he/she considers valuable or worthy. To my eyes that is about as generic a character as you can get. To your eyes that might be an interesting and unique character. We bring different things to the table, often we will come to a different conclusion.

But to make an important point, generic is not necessarily bad. In fact, I would say generic is good in many circumstances. It was certainly a good thing in the Saints Row series. I liked that there was tons of narrative space for me to play the boss how I wanted her (and I did choose a female boss) to be played without there being any dissonance. I could create a boss that fit what both the game and what I wanted her to be.

 

[manic_depressive13]

You keep saying 'demure'

de·mure (d-myr)
adj. de·mur·er, de·mur·est
1. Modest and reserved in manner or behavior.
2. Affectedly shy, modest, or reserved.

So do you feel that modesty, shyness, reservedness are feminine traits? Would you say that men with these traits, in video games and real life , are less than 'men', or feminine? Would you see this as a declusion or a positive aspect?

capthca:
dramatic chipmunk (really)

I didn't decide it's a feminine trait, society did. How many men in Dark Souls were given this trait? Also, how many women were allowed a crazy chuckle? In a game defined by psychotic cackling, the only woman who gets one is the hollow moss vendor.

I don't know what a declusion is supposed to be.