Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[jehk]

Wasn't Lara Croft more than just sexual fantasy prior towards the reboot though?

Seeing as how she was a fully controllable protagonist playing as an adventurer/explorer seeking historical artifacts, solving puzzles, and defeating countless enemies/bosses on the way...I would say yes, she was more than a sexual fantasy even prior to the reboot

You don't think that's not part of the adolescent male sexual fantasy?

Exploring caves, platforming puzzles and killing monsters = adolescent male sexual fantasy?

I don't think you and I have the same definition of "sexual fantasy". Look it up.

Why not? Do you think sexual desire is just about looks?

Don't get me started on Daniel Craig as James Bond. Mmmmmm

 

[jehk]

She'd just be some side-character who exists solely for nude/lingerie scenes and sex (and nothing else).

That's not really true. She's front and center so she can be oogled (spelling).

Even then I'm not saying she's -just- a male adolescent sexual fantasy. I don't think you're giving the fantasy proper characterization though. Being an Action Girl is an increasing part it.

 

[blackrave]

That example is ridiculous
That woman was just whining little *****

Spoiler: disclaimer

And before someone starts claiming that using words "whining little *****" proves that I'm sexist, let me explain that ANYONE, male or female, who is whining extensively over fair defeat (or any other insignificant reason)will be called "whining little *****" by me. I simply attribute these qualities to this therm. And I like how "whining little *****" sounds. Not that it's going to stop anyone from claiming that I'm misogynist pig. Well, I at least tried :/

Spoiler: My own opinion or extreme feminism

As of "feminazis". These women are simply mentally damaged.
They are hating males, boys and everything masculine
(in most severe cases they hate men and women alike, but are too afraid to admit to themselves that they hate what they are and are concentrating their "attacks" only on males)
Some of them may have reasons for this (abuse, rape, neglect, etc.), and they are attributing these bad qualities to all men
And they are using feminism as cover for putting their hatred out in the public
Sadly the more I watch, the more they succeed and women rarely object these "feminazis"
Why would they? These psychos are Adolf Hitler claiming that germans are chosen, master race, and better than everyone else. What german would object this? And what female wouldn't like to get her ego stroked?
Of course women are more emphatic
Of course women are more nurturing
Of course women are peaceful
Of course women are spiritually more evolved
Of course women are nicer
Of course women are stronger
Of course women are smarter
Of course women are better at anything
And men are totally useless cavemen, overgrown children basically.
And for all of the history women are tolerated men because they were necessary for reproduction, and because women are so nice.

What is surprising to me is that so few men are noticing and objecting to this.
I must agree on on idea that men see other men as opponents
"Of course all man are bad, and rapists, and oppressors, and exploitative. All except me. I'm exception, I'm only good one. See, I'm defending you, I agree on everything you say, I would bring you your slippers in my teeth if you would demand so. PLEASE VALIDATE ME!"
And the funny thing is that such men eventually turn into bad men, when they fail to please their feminazi masters.
Because you can't really please insane person.

And sadly these insane women has hijacked feminism movement and their extremely intolerant view has became mainstream feminism, at this point

Ok, my opinion aside, I think that feminism mix with gaming as well as any other ideology/religion.
Poorly, that is.
Even if this ideology/religion is explored or somehow used to write story for game
To write good and interesting story, writer must have some liberty with material
And how much liberty you can really have before recieving threats and complains?

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I have to confess, I still don't understand half the so-called feminist reactions to that Tomb Raider reboot.

Not only is wanting to save someone from rape bad - somehow - but the old Tomb Raider (who quite clearly was shamelessly marketed on her tits) was talked up as some kind of bad-ass.

Logic!

Read this.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Trigger_warning

Knowledge!

EDIT: There's one particular scene where Lara is caught by the bad guys. That's totally a trigger for some women. It hits way too close to the mark.

I'm interested as to why we don't just go ahead and use these trigger warnings too.

Pictures of missing limbs and explosions (for military veterens)
Images of drugs and parties (for addicts and recovering addicts)
Passages about child abuse (for the abused)
Bible quotes (for atheists)
Pictures of meat (for vegans)
Pictures of any food at all (for anorexics)
Comments about break-ups
Pictures of attractive people (for the ugly)
Self-harm
Pictures of people smiling (for the depressed)
Song lyrics (for the deaf and tone-deaf)
Pictures of cats (for people who are allergic to cats)
Any mention of straight relationships or default gender identities that isn't negative
Any passage of text (for the illiterate)

Anyway, moving past my indulgence in a little bit of juvenile humor.

I've tried several times to try and type up a proper response to this asinine crap. If someone knows they are speaking with a rape victim then yes, watching what you say is good. If you are going into a place where there are likely to be people that were victims of rape (Like a forum for people to discuss it or what have you) then you should watch what you say or bring. But purchasing an M rated game and then having a fit of indignation when it shockingly has mature themes is on the head of the person purchasing the material.

As much as that list I posted is a joke, there are people that are victims of torture or survivors of public shootings and we don't have people get outraged over things that could trigger them to have flashbacks.

I don't want to come off as some sort of insensitive ass that doesn't care about the problems of other people, but what do you expect people to do? To never have anything that could possibly trigger someone to have a flashback to something horrible that happened to them?

Do you really have such little empathy for others? Do you really not understand the point being made? I'm not sure what you are blathering about. The Mature rating has nothing to do with it.

Let me explain...

Crystal Dynamics: We're reinventing Lara as a women who's more than just an adolescent sexual fantasy. Women will have a protagonist they can identify with and feel empowered by.

Some Women: That scene where Lara almost gets captured [and strangled to death if you fail] didn't make me feel empowered. In fact, it reminded me of a time when I had no power. Not a good way to go about empowering women.

EDIT: Yes, if you cared about the feelings of other you would use trigger warnings. It's really not that hard.

Do you realize how dumb that is? So because there is a scene where she doesn't have power, it invalidates the rest of the time that she DOES have power? That female mentality is so delicate that it can't deal with ever not being empowered?

And of course I freaking care about people. Like I said, if it's a place where you know that there is someone there who could be effected, like someone you personally know, or it's a place where you know many of those people are grouped together for whatever reason, then it makes sense to watch what you say or do as basic common courtesy. What I don't care about is walking on eggshells all the time for every little thing that MIGHT cause someone to feel bad or remember something bad that happened to them in the off chance that someone MIGHT see it and have that happen.

 

[jehk]

Do you realize how dumb that is? So because there is a scene where she doesn't have power, it invalidates the rest of the time that she DOES have power? That female mentality is so delicate that it can't deal with ever not being empowered?

Her being empowered later doesn't remove her earlier disempowerment. This is especially true because she was disempowered in a very real way that a lot of women can relate to.

And of course I freaking care about people. Like I said, if it's a place where you know that there is someone there who could be effected, like someone you personally know, or it's a place where you know many of those people are grouped together for whatever reason, then it makes sense to watch what you say or do as basic common courtesy. What I don't care about is walking on eggshells all the time for every little thing that MIGHT cause someone to feel bad or remember something bad that happened to them in the off chance that someone MIGHT see it and have that happen.

If you really cared you wouldn't want to trigger people. You'd do what you could to prevent it from happening (ie spoiler tags and warnings for triggering statements).

 

[Olikar]

If you really cared you wouldn't want to trigger people. You'd do what you could to prevent it from happening (ie spoiler tags and warnings for triggering statements).

What a nonsense statement, anything can be a trigger for someone who's suffered trauma so it's ludicrous to expect to people censor themselves just in case the trigger someone, I mean would you have people never write anything or say anything ever again in case they accidentally upset someone?

 

[jehk]

If you really cared you wouldn't want to trigger people. You'd do what you could to prevent it from happening (ie spoiler tags and warnings for triggering statements).

What a nonsense statement, anything can be a trigger for someone who's suffered trauma so it's ludicrous to expect to people censor themselves just in case the trigger someone, I mean would you have people never write anything or say anything ever again in case they accidentally upset someone?

I never said people shouldn't write stuff. I said "give warnings" and "use spoiler tags".

Do you really have no idea what kind of trauma people frequently go through? It's not getting crushed by boulders or impaled by spikes.

Trying to get the big ones, ie rape, assault and related violence is just a decency to others especially if you're talking about something real.

 

[Olikar]

I never said people shouldn't write stuff. I said "give warnings" and "use spoiler tags".

Do you really have no idea what kind of trauma people frequently go through? It's not getting crushed by boulders or impaled by spikes.

Trying to get the big ones, ie rape, assault and related violence is just a decency to others especially if you're talking about something real.

Again the point still stands, anything can trigger someone who has been through emotional trauma so it's a nonsensical thing to ask.

 

[jehk]

I never said people shouldn't write stuff. I said "give warnings" and "use spoiler tags".

Do you really have no idea what kind of trauma people frequently go through? It's not getting crushed by boulders or impaled by spikes.

Trying to get the big ones, ie rape, assault and related violence is just a decency to others especially if you're talking about something real.

Again the point still stands, anything can trigger someone who has been through emotional trauma so it's a nonsensical thing to ask.

So, you're supposed to just give up? Not even try because you can't catch every thing that might trigger someone? No, you make the best attempt you can because you care about the well being of others. It's not that hard if you apply some empathy.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Do you realize how dumb that is? So because there is a scene where she doesn't have power, it invalidates the rest of the time that she DOES have power? That female mentality is so delicate that it can't deal with ever not being empowered?

Her being empowered later doesn't remove her earlier disempowerment. This is especially true because she was disempowered in a very real way that a lot of women can relate to.

And of course I freaking care about people. Like I said, if it's a place where you know that there is someone there who could be effected, like someone you personally know, or it's a place where you know many of those people are grouped together for whatever reason, then it makes sense to watch what you say or do as basic common courtesy. What I don't care about is walking on eggshells all the time for every little thing that MIGHT cause someone to feel bad or remember something bad that happened to them in the off chance that someone MIGHT see it and have that happen.

If you really cared you wouldn't want to trigger people. You'd do what you could to prevent it from happening (ie spoiler tags and warnings for triggering statements).

(Smacks forehead) Everyone is disempowered in a game at some point! Unless you have cheats on or dying is not a factor in a game, you are at risk of being disempowered. Even Kratos gets disempowered at key points in the God of War series but your logic would dictate that those moments of disempowerment are all that matters!

Lara is not invincible, the horror!

And I'm not going to spend large amounts of effort and time to thinking over everything I put in a story that could potentially offend someone and putting some sort of warning just before it. If I ever get the chance to make a game or book, I'm not going to take the person enjoying it, out of the story by placing a big block of text before events talking about how this or that scene might trigger bad memories for some people.

 

[Olikar]

I never said people shouldn't write stuff. I said "give warnings" and "use spoiler tags".

Do you really have no idea what kind of trauma people frequently go through? It's not getting crushed by boulders or impaled by spikes.

Trying to get the big ones, ie rape, assault and related violence is just a decency to others especially if you're talking about something real.

Again the point still stands, anything can trigger someone who has been through emotional trauma so it's a nonsensical thing to ask.

So, you're supposed to just give up? Not even try because you can't catch every single thing that might trigger someone? No, you make the best attempt you can because you care about the well being of others.

It's not that hard if have some empathy.

No censoring triggers wont help trauma victims because they could always be triggered by something else, you're hiding the the problem instead of solving it. Its much better to not censor triggers and help people who have suffered trauma deal with the long term consequences by giving them counseling and help etc.

You keep calling for people to have empathy for trauma victims but what empathy do you actually have? I doubt you legitimately care at all to be honest, you just want to complain about being offended by something.

 

[dementis]

Something about the word "Feminism" has always bothered me, I prefer the term "Equalism" (So people who support it are called Equalists).

OT: I think more needs to be done for gender equality in games but I really don't enjoy players discussing any form of political/ religious topic in-game as I play games to escape all that.
When I'm not playing games I'm happy to discuss the issue, when I'm playing games to get away from the world I only want to think about fighting for the glory of the Iron Legion and helping my fellow Charr take back our land from evil ghosts!

 

[carnex]

If you really cared you wouldn't want to trigger people. You'd do what you could to prevent it from happening (ie spoiler tags and warnings for triggering statements).

What a nonsense statement, anything can be a trigger for someone who's suffered trauma so it's ludicrous to expect to people censor themselves just in case the trigger someone, I mean would you have people never write anything or say anything ever again in case they accidentally upset someone?

I never said people shouldn't write stuff. I said "give warnings" and "use spoiler tags".

Do you really have no idea what kind of trauma people frequently go through? It's not getting crushed by boulders or impaled by spikes.

Trying to get the big ones, ie rape, assault and related violence is just a decency to others especially if you're talking about something real.

OK, I didn't want to identify myself, but I must say this to show you how biased you are. I'm from Serbia. My mother and father are of Serbian nationality born in Croatia. My mother's family suffered horribly under Independent Republic of Croatia's rule during WWII (her mother was paralyzed from abdomen down, after being savagely beaten and left unconscious in snow etc.)

During Balkan wars, much of my family fought in it defending their homes, which had other horrific consequences. One of my brothers, which acted as special forces operator (he was MP actually but still best trained soldier they had), had a total psychotic breakdown. When not in action he was either crying or in total shutdown. He was putting himself to sleep by sucking on the barrel of his handgun. When they saw that, they finally pulled him out. He was living in the same house as I did while he was recovering.

My niece, daughter of another of my brothers which stayed on the front, was so shell-shocked that while she stayed at my house after they escaped Croatia, we were very careful not to create any make any loud banging, crashing or exploding noises. If she heard such noise she would grab her doll and run under the massive dinner table telling her doll it will be all right over and over and over again. She did that from some 19 months of age when she came to my house to age of roughly 6 years when finally she managed to control her impulse and finally managed to socialize.

I know how it is to live with psychologically damaged people. I have been there. But not for a second did anyone try to blame anyone else for triggering their involuntary responses. We, their family and friends, and they themselves were to blame if they were exposed to "triggers". We never blamed others for creating those images and sounds (other than outburst of anger on the spot, sometimes even followed by apologies if person was present).

So if game tells "intense violence" because it is portrayed but does not say "sexual violence" since no such thing takes place one can't be blamed for triggering someone's hyperactive reaction due to hypersensitivity or serious problems with self-projection. You can not account for every last person in the world. You can not project your problem on everyone else just to make yourself feel better. Not even if it triggers uncontrolable responses.

I'm pissed off at myself now...

 

[jehk]

I never said people shouldn't write stuff. I said "give warnings" and "use spoiler tags".

Do you really have no idea what kind of trauma people frequently go through? It's not getting crushed by boulders or impaled by spikes.

Trying to get the big ones, ie rape, assault and related violence is just a decency to others especially if you're talking about something real.

Again the point still stands, anything can trigger someone who has been through emotional trauma so it's a nonsensical thing to ask.

So, you're supposed to just give up? Not even try because you can't catch every single thing that might trigger someone? No, you make the best attempt you can because you care about the well being of others.

It's not that hard if have some empathy.

No censoring triggers wont help trauma victims because they could always be triggered by something else, you're hiding the the problem instead of solving it. Its much better to not censor triggers and help people who have suffered trauma deal with the long term consequences by giving them counseling and help etc.

You keep calling for people to have empathy for trauma victims but what empathy do you actually have? I doubt you legitimately care at all to be honest, you just want to complain about being offended by something.

Having been a victim of sexual assault it does help. It really does. I can just skip over topics/posts that contain such content. Do you really think the warnings have no affect at all? Are you really claiming you have no idea what might trigger people?

 

[jehk]

My niece, daughter of another of my brothers which stayed on the front, was so shell-shocked that while she stayed at my house after they escaped Croatia, we were very careful not to create any make any loud banging, crashing or exploding noises. If she heard such noise she would grab her doll and run under the massive dinner table telling her doll it will be all right over and over and over again. She did that from some 19 months of age when she came to my house to age of roughly 6 years when finally she managed to control her impulse and finally managed to socialize.

Your family cared enough about your niece not to make loud noises and such. That's all trigger warnings are. A decency you afford to others because you care about their well being. There's no blaming going around and you do the best you can.

I'm out of this conversation. If you don't understand now then there's no helping you.

 

[Olikar]

Having been a victim of sexual assault it does help. It really does. I can just skip over topics/posts that contain such content. Do you really think the warnings have no affect at all? Are you really claiming you have no idea what might trigger people?

Well having suffered intense emotional trauma myself (I am not going to divulge what for personal reasons) I can tell you that no, warnings don't help at all, all they do is cover the problem and not fix it. The fact that people have flashbacks to traumatic experiences is better solved by counselling, trigger warnings are like 'painting over the cracks' as they say.

 

[jehk]

Having been a victim of sexual assault it does help. It really does. I can just skip over topics/posts that contain such content. Do you really think the warnings have no affect at all? Are you really claiming you have no idea what might trigger people?

Well having suffered intense emotional trauma myself (I am not going to divulge what for personal reasons) I can tell you that no, warnings don't help at all, all they do is cover the problem and not fix it. The fact that people have flashbacks to traumatic experiences is better solved by counselling, trigger warnings are like 'painting over the cracks' as they say.

Trigger warnings help me but not you so they're pointless? This is exactly what I mean about lacking empathy.

 

[Olikar]

Having been a victim of sexual assault it does help. It really does. I can just skip over topics/posts that contain such content. Do you really think the warnings have no affect at all? Are you really claiming you have no idea what might trigger people?

Well having suffered intense emotional trauma myself (I am not going to divulge what for personal reasons) I can tell you that no, warnings don't help at all, all they do is cover the problem and not fix it. The fact that people have flashbacks to traumatic experiences is better solved by counselling, trigger warnings are like 'painting over the cracks' as they say.

Trigger warnings help me but not you so they're pointless? This is exactly what I mean about lacking empathy.

That's not why I said, I said that Trigger warnings make no meaningful impact on people who have suffered trauma, in fact they often hurt since people think trigger warnings are an adequate solution they may fail to see that someone who's suffered intense trauma still needs counseling to deal with the long term impact of their trauma. If all you're just going to is just misrepresent what I said, not discuss the issue at hand and paint me as some sort of heartless bastard who lacks empathy then please just stop writing.

 

[jehk]

That's not why I said, I said that Trigger warnings make no meaningful impact on people who have suffered trauma, in fact they often hurt since people think trigger warnings are an adequate solution they may fail to see that someone who's suffered intense trauma still needs counseling to deal with the long term impact of their trauma. If all you're just going to is just misrepresent what I said, not discuss the issue at hand and paint me as some sort of heartless bastard who lacks empathy then please just stop writing.

This is just wrong. They do help a number of people. Myself included. Being able to tackle past trauma at your own pace is very important. That's a big part of what these trigger warnings help with.