Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Mr F.]

Wow. Ten pages. Jesus.

I don't know where to start.

I have been in and out of these feminism threads quite regularly recently. And hell, they are tastier than the Mass Effect threads, the "OMFG NOT ANOTHER SKYRIM THREAD" threads, the "X is drowning" threads. These are really my favourite threads.

Watching two groups of people fight over the point they have both missed is just golden.

Lets see:
To the OP, one random example doesn't mean shit. I can give you 5 random examples in the last two months of my sisters/mother being sexually harassed by blokes. I will not then infer that all blokes are asshole. I will infer that those blokes were assholes. Similarly, the random lady (That may not exist) referred to in your OP is just a random asshole. People are assholes.

To the actual meat of this thread?

Yes, Feminism has a place in gaming. Everything has a place in gaming. Yahtzee just reviewed a game in which you play a borderguard, arbitrarily (in some cases) dooming people to live away from their families. All the reviews have stated that said game is deep, meaningful and a little bit fucked up. There are platformers about the discovery of the atomic bomb which focus around the manipulation and rewinding of time, almost like the creator was indicating that those who discovered the bomb wished to turn back time. There are games about everything. Company of Heroes made me sympathise with Nazis, genuine Nazis.

Gaming is art and art is a medium in which we can discuss important things. Now, should all art try and discuss things? Nope! But most of the good stuff does. Pratchett is my favourite author because 95% of what he writes is loaded with satire or social commentary. One of my favourite games is Burnout Paradise. Does that contain a feminist narrative? Does that game contain ANY narrative bar "CRASHING CARS FUN!"? Nope. And its a strong game. A fun game.

Not every game needs political narratives or social commentary, but some that have both are pretty fucking good games. Asking that ALL games remove ALL political narratives and social commentary would make for some pretty dull games.

See, that is what this discussion was supposed to be about. Does feminism has a place in gaming. It is self evident that feminism does have a place in gaming. Now, to the discussion everyone else is having right now.

"HURRDURR THEY WANT TO TAKE MY BOOBS AWAY"
"HURRDURR I AM DEFENDING TEH WOMENS BECAUSE I AM ENLIGHTENED AND CANNOT SEE THE IRONY OF MY DEFENSE ACTUALLY BEING PART OF THE ISSUE HERE"

Yeah, I have been guilty of the last one. Look guys, and I am talking to you guys that want this to change, if we want to attack the sexist narratives within videogames in the hope that we might get games changed for the better (And this applies to wider society) do not focus on how damaging and demeaning it is. You can wax lyrical about that for as long as you like. But fuck that. Let the women speak for themselves.

Speak about how demeaning it is to you. Complain about how the men are being treated. Complain about how the shitty narratives bore you. Not about how they are upsetting and damaging for "Peoples" opinions of woman, fuck that. Just complain about how they are shit, how they are unenjoyable and how much you would enjoy games more with stronger narratives.

To the others, the ones getting really angry about the whole feminism in games, just remember what I said. Some games have no deep narratives and are awesome, games like Burnout. However, some games would be enhanced by greater diversity in the female cast. We aint saying ban all the games that do not have strong female characters, that is stupid and inane and some of the best games do not have strong female characters (Or strong characters AT ALL).

We are, however, asking for more games with stronger female characters.

 

[Yuuki]

You: WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHGGGGGAAAAARRRRBBBBBLLLLLEEEE!!!!
Me: WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHGGGGGAAAAARRRRBBBBBLLLLLEEEE!!!!

And so on.

And so on.

See, this is where it can be helpful to simply agree that your opinions differentiate and end it there since things are getting nowhere.
That way the number replies to such threads wouldn't EXPLODE to begin with, and the people who wanted to make some noise would find themselves making noise in an empty void where few/nobody is listening and then the overall noise created by such threads would vastly reduce.

If only more people understood this, then people like Anita wouldn't become overnight sensations and such threads would get exactly the kind of priority/importance they deserve and nothing more.

Looking back over the pages, you two aren't the only ones who have reached the getting-nowhere-point.

Wonder how many more threads like this we need till people get the idea. And before anyone says "until the issue is fixed", good luck, because things will change at their natural pace as reflected by consumer/market trends over a global scale. There are still ideas/concepts embedded into society and humanity that could take several decades (if not longer) to change. Gaming isn't special when it comes to gender politics, neither is it anywhere near as prominent/impacting on people's lives as a ton of other things.

Some people (not aimed at you Smeatza) need to come out of their holes and open their eyes to that fact.

 

[pilouuuu]

Good Lord, what's the thing with feminism in gaming these days? Games used to be about having fun! Idiots made Elizabeth look less sexy in Bioshock Infinite because a sexy woman is so offensive... C'mon! I know many girls in real life that are sexier. I just dislike that ALL characters in games are sexy, but there's no reason to make girls in games ugly... Would these people complain if a guy looks like a sex slave?

It's especially annoying in sites like Rock Paper Shotgun, which I enjoy reading, but the way they bash art in games because they're supposedly oh so offensive is annoying to say the least. Feminism is annoying in real life and it's even more annoying in games.

 

[DracoSuave]

Is there a pervasive toxic influence in the gaming culture that is anti-woman--misogynistic individuals that displace their selfhate upon the female gender for any number of reasons?

Yes.

Should this be combated?

Yes.

Therefore should feminism exist in gaming?

Absolutely yes.

Point proven.

Now, if you were to ask the question 'Do some people take it too far?' yes, I'd agree. But that's not an argument against feminism any more than woman-hating social outcasts could be a case against allowing males to game. That's an argument against taking it too far which, I am certain, any sane individual can agree with.

So, we've proven feminism is necessary, and we've established that taking it too far is bad. Can we now stop hating against feminism and actually just combat taking it too far? Is asking people to be rational and level-headed too much?

Blaming feminism for people taking things too far is going after the wrong thing--it's also itself an example of taking it too far. Ya'll need to simmer the hell down, take a breath, and actually learn how to identify the real enemy, otherwise ya'll just BECOME the enemy.

 

[Bakuryukun]

I honestly don't think people get to DECIDE whether it mixes or not, it's inevitably going to, just like a lot of social issues and I think it should be free to. If a large amount of women aren't happy with the amount or quality of their representation in games or feel excluded from the gaming community, then those aren't just things we should ignore because we fear change or think that it's "disrupting" our hobby.

We may not get to decide whether the two mix or not, but we definitely have the choice of how we react to it. Thoughtful and inclusive discussion is what is necessary here and not this reactionary knee jerk "Femnism is ruinin' our games" garbage that permeates talk of the topic currently. I'm not saying I agree with every feminist I've ever talked to about the subject, honestly I've heard some pretty ridiculous overblown assertions from both "sides" but I do absolutely think women could use some more good role models both in video games and in media as a whole and that the outcry for that is legitimate.

In the end what I think what people are really crying out for is more variety in games, we may have a large amount of variety in some aspects of games (specifically genre and tone) but there is still so much more we could do to increase variety and thus increase inclusivity and when that starts happening I think gamers on the whole will be much better for it men, women and otherwise.

 

[Voulan]

Third Wave feminism, which is what we're currently in now, is all about female representation in all forms of media. By its very definition it absolutely has a place with video games, just as all free rights movements have a right to criticise and analyse. If people have nothing against what feminism stands for (which is equal rights for women on par with men, or rather equal rights across the board), then why does it bother you so much? What's the scenario that people are so afraid is going to happen?

The worst case scenario is more diverse games, and I'm not understanding the backlash at all. It's probably because I'm female.

 

[Redd the Sock]

and making triple AAA games specific to appeal to an audience who has CONTINUALLY PROVEN ITSELF UNRELIABLE (eg. beyond good and evil) is not good business. Why do most triple A games aim for the attention of the largest market share?

Without acknowledging the rest of your post, I do take exception to this on a basis of economics. If making expensive things for a normally unreliable market was universally a poor business practice, then Henry Ford would've never flourished.

In fact, it's even comparable. Cars were very expensive, so people who weren't rich felt unwelcome by the market. Ford paid his workers enough that they would be able to afford his vehicles, which in turn they not only bought, but injected that wealth into the local economies and brought more prosperity to the rest of the area, which in turn meant even more people could buy his cars. So by making a few painful adjustments in the short term, he was able to create an empire that remains to this day. Similarly, I think perhaps a good deal of possible customers feel alienated from video games still. It used to be the casual market, but Google, Apple and Nintendo struck out to change that with great success. Who's to say the same couldn't be done with women?

Henry Ford's efforts were more about reducing employee turnover than market creation. It worked out that way, but it also invalidates the comparison. There was nothing "alienating" about cars to poor people, they just couldn't afford them, and once they had the option, they took it. There is nothing physically or economically stopping more women from participating in more gaming they just chose not to. Of course, I understand why some games don't appeal to women, but the allegation stands that attempts to appeal to women don't seem to attract the desired demographic. With respect to what you "feel" the sales numbers and market demographics based on reality tells a different story. You're free to continue to think this of course, but as someone working in finance, you are what we call someone without "skin in the game". You don't work for a game company. You don't own stock in a game company. So if a game company takes a risk and fails, it costs you nothing, making it very easy to sit in judgement of others not doing what you think they should. It's easy to say what a company should do when it isn't your nest egg or job on the line.

I don't mean to be angry about this, but I'm getting tired of resistance to the idea that female gamers might need to do more and be more supportive of the industry before they're marketed to. Game companies have bills to pay, and as such, don't really hold much faith in gut feelings of people on internet forums at the best of times, let alone when it's about a social issue where to some business is irrelevant and pushing a certain morality is all important.

Though, that does mind me of an alternative path. A lot of big game companies are publicly traded. Maybe for this and other issues we should look at buying up voting shares.

 

[Vivid Kazumi]

considering the one sided nature of feminism?









no

 

[broca]

Third Wave feminism, which is what we're currently in now, is all about female representation in all forms of media. By its very definition it absolutely has a place with video games, just as all free rights movements have a right to criticise and analyse. If people have nothing against what feminism stands for (which is equal rights for women on par with men, or rather equal rights across the board), then why does it bother you so much? What's the scenario that people are so afraid is going to happen?

The worst case scenario is more diverse games, and I'm not understanding the backlash at all. It's probably because I'm female.

So, perhaps a mans perspective helps you understand some of the backlash: the worst case scenario is feminists dictating was is allowed in gaming, just like people who link video games and real world issues have tried forever. And please, don't tell me that's not what some feminists want: Sarkeesian (you know, THE video game feminist) argues against tropes because she considers them harmful. She even links video game violence and real world violence. If you argue that there is a link between video games and real world violence, there's no other way than to fight for a ban of such video games.

But while we talk about stuff people don't understand because of their gender: why do half of the feminists on the internet tell men to stay of of feminism because it's for females and the other half tells men that they don't understand how men could come to the conclusion that feminism is for females? Perhaps a female perspective could help me understand?

 

[carnex]

To all people who constantly are saying that feminism is this and that

You ahve people among the movement who are much more extreme and have large following, People who are not for dialogue, are violent and deny and possibility of other poeple having problems or having different opinion. Often all in one package. And those people are the ones who are most out there and most visible.

From what I saw your canadian representatives are worst. Then again in canada you have ministry that has, as a job, to prevent anything from being passed that would damage position of women and children and is based on opinion of one single person.

I pourpodsfully left core concepts like Patriarchy and Rape Culture out becouse this is not discussion about feminsit values. I just want to point out problem movement is having and which people blisfully ignore.

 

[Cellseam]

yes the girl was obviously in the wrong, with no obvious proof that her gender was the reason for the attack, in this case she was wrong, but using this as a reason why femimism shouldnt be brought up in gaming at all, as if this is all it is and there are no legitimate gender based attacks is ridiculous. saying feminism doesnt matter in one area, ok so fairness to all genders only applies what in what areas? Should we ignore it in movies too? Music? Marriage? This is a crazy weak argument.

 

[TheDarkestDerp]

Feminism is about the right to equal treatment of both sexes, one of which has been continually dis=empowered for milenia due to outdated patriarchal cultural taboos and mores.

No, it isn't about "faux rage". Maybe it is for you or someone else, but that's not what it is for the few grown adults who care enough to work towards us all treating each other a little better on this planet with what little time we're here.

As much as equality belongs in any other venue, it belongs in gaming, yes. Jeezus Christ, did Sarkeesian get you all just this upset with her videos or something?

 

[wulf3n]

It's like if I drive over a bridge and it collapses, and then the engineers tell me, "Well, if you want a decent bridge so much, you should just build your own!"

Why should I? I don't have the money. I don't know anything about civil engineering, and I doubt I'd have much aptitude for it. Why should I prioritise it over the things I'm actually skilled at? And while we're at it, should everyone who saw the bridge and said, "Wow, that bridge is really badly constructed" be forced to help with rebuilding efforts?

A bridge is nothing like a game, A bridge does require expertise otherwise people die, but a game doesn't you can start hacking things together, it'll probably be terrible but the result of failure is not the same. A bridge is also arguably essential to the survival of those who use it where as games are purely a luxury and not necessary for anything.

Let's face it, most people will never be in a position of authority when it comes to video game design. Most people will never have the business acumen to set up a company, or the inspiration for the next indie hit. Most people will never be writers or designers on a triple-A title. And I say this as a woman considering going into the video game industry! But if I do, I'll be working in localisation, and I'll still have absolutely no influence on the content of anything being put out.

By yourself no, but if even a small percentage of those who shared your opinion did the same you'd probably have the numbers and expertise to start a company.

That means that if I play games, I have to rely on the companies who do have the finance and the expertise and the connections needed to create a video game. Whether or not you agree that more games should include well-rounded female characters, the fact is that if those companies don't make them, I can't play them.

Welcome to the free market.

It's funny the counter arguments bugs me as much as the initial argument bugs the counter arguers. There's always talk "games only pander to a single demographic" and yes that is the case but its the result of a small sub section of that demographic deciding that they're not going to sit around and complain that no ones making what they want and actually made what they want.

catpcha: gimme pizza

you can have my pizza, when you pry it from my cold dead hands!

 

[Voulan]

Third Wave feminism, which is what we're currently in now, is all about female representation in all forms of media. By its very definition it absolutely has a place with video games, just as all free rights movements have a right to criticise and analyse. If people have nothing against what feminism stands for (which is equal rights for women on par with men, or rather equal rights across the board), then why does it bother you so much? What's the scenario that people are so afraid is going to happen?

The worst case scenario is more diverse games, and I'm not understanding the backlash at all. It's probably because I'm female.

So, perhaps a mans perspective helps you understand some of the backlash: the worst case scenario is feminists dictating was is allowed in gaming, just like people who link video games and real world issues have tried forever. And please, don't tell me that's not what some feminists want: Sarkeesian (you know, THE video game feminist) argues against tropes because she considers them harmful. She even links video game violence and real world violence. If you argue that there is a link between video games and real world violence, there's no other way than to fight for a ban of such video games.

But while we talk about stuff people don't understand because of their gender: why do half of the feminists on the internet tell men to stay of of feminism because it's for females and the other half tells men that they don't understand how men could come to the conclusion that feminism is for females? Perhaps a female perspective could help me understand?

Alright, censorship is a fair enough worry. However, every form of media cannot escape all kinds of criticism - that is what art is all about. Even if an understanding was made to subdue sexualized females in games, but not in all of them, there will still be some form of feminist (and other groups) backlash. That's just a fact of free speech; someone will get hurt at some point. Since this is the case, preventing feminism from having any say is a little short-sighted. If some sort of agreement is made to have at least some games meeting feminist demand (and granted, since we are still met with the issue of male developers and a male-centered audience, this would be minimal at best), but other games with the usual diatribe are also still allowed, would that be agreeable? I just think that preventing it completely is unfair to the female gamers who are out there. And, at least we'll get some more carefully written games rather than the usual 'shoot the thing because' stories.

As for your question, it's likely linked to the same idea as the hate towards 'fake gamers' - the idea of being persecuted against and having to suffer, and forming some identity from it. In this case, women might not feel that men have a right to argue for them because they are at a point of privilege. They are targeted towards and pandered to, and women are often an afterthought as an audience. Admittedly, I get a little upset when men call feminism and female representation a non-issue, because, naturally, they would benefit nothing from it and it would take away their point of privilege. It's this view that makes women chastise men for not caring enough, and being skeptical or even suspicious of men that do argue for feminism.

That's just a generalization, mind, and your question is probably the result of the vocal minority at work (and from 2nd Wave Feminism, likely). I get really happy when I read posts on here arguing for feminism that are from a male gamer. I've even befriended people on here because of that. Mostly I think it's just happiness from seeing someone with the same opinion and arguing for something I see as being right.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Or you could, of course, make your own games. No one is stopping you.

Whatever your views on feminism in gaming, I do wish people would stop bringing up this ridiculous argument. It's like if I drive over a bridge and it collapses, and then the engineers tell me, "Well, if you want a decent bridge so much, you should just build your own!"

Why should I? I don't have the money. I don't know anything about civil engineering, and I doubt I'd have much aptitude for it. Why should I prioritise it over the things I'm actually skilled at? And while we're at it, should everyone who saw the bridge and said, "Wow, that bridge is really badly constructed" be forced to help with rebuilding efforts?

Let's face it, most people will never be in a position of authority when it comes to video game design. Most people will never have the business acumen to set up a company, or the inspiration for the next indie hit. Most people will never be writers or designers on a triple-A title. And I say this as a woman considering going into the video game industry! But if I do, I'll be working in localisation, and I'll still have absolutely no influence on the content of anything being put out.

That means that if I play games, I have to rely on the companies who do have the finance and the expertise and the connections needed to create a video game. Whether or not you agree that more games should include well-rounded female characters, the fact is that if those companies don't make them, I can't play them.

I think if a bunch of people, only knowing each other through 4chan, could work together and release a visual novel complete with music, art, and a few animated cut-scenes, with no budget and with no goal of getting any money for the project... if a group of people can make Katawa Shoujou, then I think a bunch of people that apparently feel very strongly about female representation could make a game devoted to it too.

If one man could work on a platformer game over the course of five years, all by himself, with music, bosses, enemies, sound effects, multiple weapons, different endings, and all with only his own money and also manage to make it the poster child for indie games and get it released on multiple consoles, if Cave Story could do that then I think a bunch of people that apparently feel very strongly about female representation could make a game devoted to it too.

I've seen games like An Untitled Story get made, a game that is HUGE, has an enormous world full of bosses and enemies and upgrades and secrets and minigames with no funding and release it on the internet for free then I think a bunch of people that apparently feel very strongly about female representation could make a game devoted to it too.

People use freaking RPG Maker all the time to make great games with stories, and diverse areas and characters and music for no profit and yet make them really memorable experiences.

Do you not know anything about indie games at all?

 

[carnex]

Some of games mostly made by one person in recent years are

Dust: The Elysian Tail - from animator from Disney, gorgeous looking game, but also plays awesomly. Only Music is done by two other artists

Noiut Love 2 - Konjak is awesome. His new game Iconoclasts is taking decades but it looks absoletly bafflyngly awesome. Funnily, both Konjak's comercial games have female protagonists.

Dishwasher: Dead Samurai and Vampire Smile : again great games mostly made by one person.

And then there's Kencta Cho who made rRoot Age, Torus Trooper, Gunroar, Tumiki Fighters and many others in his free time and distributes them for free.

So, yes. One can make great game without a studio.

 

[broca]

Alright, censorship is a fair enough worry. However, every form of media cannot escape all kinds of criticism - that is what art is all about. Even if an understanding was made to subdue sexualized females in games, but not in all of them, there will still be some form of feminist (and other groups) backlash. That's just a fact of free speech; someone will get hurt at some point. Since this is the case, preventing feminism from having any say is a little short-sighted. If some sort of agreement is made to have at least some games meeting feminist demand (and granted, since we are still met with the issue of male developers and a male-centered audience, this would be minimal at best), but other games with the usual diatribe are also still allowed, would that be agreeable? I just think that preventing it completely is unfair to the female gamers who are out there. And, at least we'll get some more carefully written games rather than the usual 'shoot the thing because' stories.

As i wrote here http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.826828.20088759 i have no problem with feminism in gaming, only with some of the gaming feminists. And while i think that feminists have many problems (for examples see http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.826828.20088549 ), i can also see that the huge achievements of feminism over the last century.

While i don't think that the lower number of core female gamers is a problem in itself (fiction readers are 80% women without anyone seeing a problem http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229), i think that gaming should be more welcoming for females who want to or already do game (e.g. by addressing harassment and representation). There's even a thread that tries to find ways to address these problems ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.826144-Women-gaming-problems-solution-discussion-1 ), but sadly it gets a lot less attention than the hundredth fruitless discussion about feminism and feminist terminology.

About criticism: of course all media is fair game. But there is a difference between subjective criticism and moral criticism. If someone finds Dragons Crown art style personally off putting or disgusting, that's totally ok and (from my point of view) understandable. The solution to this is to just not play the game. But if someone says that Dragon Crowns art style is sexist or misogynist that's a moral jugdement, from which follows that such media shouldn't exist. See the difference between it is a bad game vs. it shouldn't exist?

But that's not even the main problem with feminist backlash against whatever. The main problem is the impressive ineffectiveness of such a backlash. You know what's the easiest way to make a group of people oppose criticism? Attacks by (perceived) outsiders. Which is exactly what feminists did and then acted surprised about the easily predictable negative outcome.

As for your question, it's likely linked to the same idea as the hate towards 'fake gamers' - the idea of being persecuted against and having to suffer, and forming some identity from it. In this case, women might not feel that men have a right to argue for them because they are at a point of privilege. They are targeted towards and pandered to, and women are often an afterthought as an audience. Admittedly, I get a little upset when men call feminism and female representation a non-issue, because, naturally, they would benefit nothing from it and it would take away their point of privilege. It's this view that makes women chastise men for not caring enough, and being skeptical or even suspicious of men that do argue for feminism.

My question was based on my frustration with a pattern of behavior by feminists that is quite common around here: the ignorance of the parts of feminism that they disagree with. I don't know how often i red stuff like "feminism works for equality of both females and males" or "feminists just want more diverse games" when my experience on the internet tells me there are ample feminists who disagree with these positions. But these peoples complete denial of conflicting feminist positions even is they are pointed out is just one of this things that really bug me. Nothing to do with you personally.

That's just a generalization, mind, and your question is probably the result of the vocal minority at work (and from 2nd Wave Feminism, likely). I get really happy when I read posts on here arguing for feminism that are from a male gamer. I've even befriended people on here because of that. Mostly I think it's just happiness from seeing someone with the same opinion and arguing for something I see as being right.

I'm the classic example of a person who identifies with some basic goals of feminism but due to contact with (internet) feminists doesn't identify with feminism.