Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Specter Von Baren]

-snip-

Ohhh, he got you good Guppy, here she seems to be using EXACTLY the same arguments as "videogames makes you kill people" dudes with more or less the same objectives and even less concrete evidence or solid parameters except "I like this, don't like that". Though it's kinda creepy that someone that dislikes her have read so much of her writing.

It's a transcript of her Tropes V.S. Women video series. Specifically DiD Part 2.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

From her second video (transcript as given on her website).

Okay, I read through that, concentrating specifically on the bolded parts. Where was the call to censorship?

You do realize there's a significant gulf between harsh criticism and pro-censorship, right? Ring me up when you have her...or anyone...quoted as saying "All sales of game X must be immediately halted because of reasons" and I will join you on the picket line. I will even bring a bitchin' sign.

Well there are generally accepted ideas about the purpose and value of art in western society derived from centuries of thought but this is admittedly not objective and in calling it irrelevant my wording was slightly off because their values on art aren't entirely irrelevant but only irrelevant to the accepted definition. What I should of said is that I find the values Anita-type feminists find in art (it's societal purpose and not it's aesthetic purpose) reprehensible and opposed to the values most artists would hold for their own work. If they want to judge art based on societal values then they're free to do so but shouldn't be surprised when people call they're criticism irrelevant or pointless or toxic to intellectual thought. They could of course create art purely for societal value but I think they'll realise pretty quickly art like that turns out to be utter shite.

Art is free for criticism, discussion and evaluation on a number of levels. None of them get closed off for discussion because the discussion makes people uncomfortable. If you want to make a counter argument, just defend the piece in question. Even if your defense is flaky, it's better than demanding the criticism just go away because "you find it reprehensible". That's a hell of a lot closer to censorship than anything the critics are saying.

Ohhh, he got you good Guppy, here she seems to be using EXACTLY the same arguments as "videogames makes you kill people" dudes with more or less the same objectives and even less concrete evidence or solid parameters except "I like this, don't like that". Though it's kinda creepy that someone that dislikes her have read so much of her writing.

This discussion was already enjoyed with defskyoen on a previous page. Subtly influencing attitudes =/= directly influencing actions.

If any advocate of the (dubiously ephemeral) concept of "rape culture" ever suggested that watching a pair of huge tits jiggle in a video game sent someone out that evening to rape, I would personally spearhead the posse to slap the stupid out of them.

 

[DracoSuave]

As it stands now you have only provided evidence for part 1. Now you must prove part 2 and then part 3 to have made a point. Which you seem unwilling or unable to do. When asked for evidence, which you believed to be so trivial as to not need it, you show one picture and say look it up yourself. Which did not show that "a pervasive toxic influence" exists nor did it explain why feminism is needed. It is YOUR job to make YOUR argument and if you are unwilling or unable to do so then you have no argument.

Try again. And try harder this time.

Well part 3 is a fucking tautology practically. Actively fighting misogyny IS feminism. So if you establish that misogyny is bad, then it follows logically that fighting it is valuable.

This is so obvious that it's trivial.

As for the second, I already provided the means by which one can determine that for themselves. Twitch channel, reasonably popular, female gamer, sit and watch and observe.

This is so trivial to observe that I am absolutely confident that 'go see for yourself' is all the evidence I need. You asked for evidence--I pointed you directly to it. To claim that I haven't done so is dishonest.

 

[DracoSuave]

My point was there exist members of the community that are misogynists.

Your rebuttal is to state that this misogynist tweet is from a member of the community.

We are therefore in agreement, and I have successfully made my point.

I think we may have misunderstood each other in our little posts.
The point of my rambling was to emphasize that the evidence provided was more evidence for sexist attitudes among the target audience of those particular titles rather than on behalf of the medium as a whole.

I understand that--my point was about the community originally and has not strayed from it.

My challenge was to find evidence that was found from audiences not being primarily young adolescent males. But i'm sure we are both not particularly bothered to go in depth to any degree with research. So i will leave this post as an open invitation for someone to awaken me to the true sexist underbelly of the gaming community without reference to CoD, XBL, anything with a main participant base of ~13 Y.O

Take any discussion in the Escapist about women at geek conventions or in geek culture. Make observations about how often you notice people claim girls at these events must look and conform to a certain ideal in order to be acceptable by those individuals.

Do a search for 'white knight' in any discussion about female gamers in general, observe the discussions involved.

Look at the types of vitriol that were launched on the Dragon Age discussions towards Jennifer Hepler--certain specific ones in particular.

This stuff isn't hard to find if you stop turning a blind eye to it.

 

[wulf3n]

Well part 3 is a fucking tautology practically. Actively fighting misogyny IS feminism. So if you establish that misogyny is bad, then it follows logically that fighting it is valuable.

Yet when asked, no one wants to explain what fighting misogyny with feminism actually entails.

But when an artist talks about needing to distinguish his work from "generic fantasy" and the solution he comes up with is to just super-exaggerate secondary sexual characteristics, then yes...I would typify that as creatively lazy.
But maybe you guys are right, and maybe this really is the best idea he was capable of coming up with. In that case, it was wrong to characterize him as "lazy". You've got me there.

I am allways baffled, when I see this argument. The guy is not Dalí or van Gogh. His work isn't really revolutionary in the general visual arts department but I didn't see anything similar yet in games except Team Fortress. Look at his fighter. Those arms and shoulders. Doesn't he look like an adorable caricature of a generic male fighter character in modern fantasy? Are all of these just lazy? https://www.google.de/search?q=caricature&client=firefox-a&hs=wI8&rls=org.mozilla:defficial&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=DTMjUsbrJIiYtQbY_4DoBQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=648

Even then it's more than just a caricature in most cases. Those that put in the effort to look find plenty of hidden reference and possible meaning.

http://art-eater.com/2013/03/from-mickey-mouse-to-jesus-the-latest-dragons-crown-trailer-is-full-of-epic-homages/

 

[runic knight]

-snip-

Ohhh, he got you good Guppy, here she seems to be using EXACTLY the same arguments as "videogames makes you kill people" dudes with more or less the same objectives and even less concrete evidence or solid parameters except "I like this, don't like that". Though it's kinda creepy that someone that dislikes her have read so much of her writing.

Creepy? I would hope they spent enough time to become familiar with their arguments before disliking her. I mean, if not then it would seem like someone just hates them for crap reasons. Being that familiar with her work and still disliking her seems more like what a reasonable person would do: Give her a chance and come to their conclusion based on a fair chance given.

 

[Tanakh]

snip

She however does say that games that don't fit her ideas of womanhood shouldn't be made. If saying something shouldn't be made because it doesn't fit your moral standards ain't a veiled way of censorship, then... what do you think it is?

 

[DracoSuave]

Well part 3 is a fucking tautology practically. Actively fighting misogyny IS feminism. So if you establish that misogyny is bad, then it follows logically that fighting it is valuable.

Yet when asked, no one wants to explain what fighting misogyny with feminism actually entails.

That's probably because the question is malformed due to the fact that feminism IS opposing misogyny.

You might as well ask 'Why does no one tell how extinguishing fires is supposed to put them out?'

Feminism is removing barriers to female integration within society.

Misogyny is a barrier to their integration within society.

This isn't a difficult logical step. Or do you need it explained to you how misogyny is a social barrier? Do you ACTUALLY need someone to tell you that members of a community telling you that you do not belong in that community or only should be allowed within a small part of it might constitute a barrier to your participation in that community?

Seriously, some of this is actually pretty obvious, as obvious as dropping your pen on a table is a sufficient answer to 'Why do you believe in gravity?'

 

[balfore]

The story has nothing to do with feminism. The sheer fact that she accused him of being sexist for killing a person in a game is dumb, and shows little understanding of what sexism actually is.

 

[wulf3n]

You might as well ask 'Why does no one tell how extinguishing fires is supposed to put them out?'

But if I asked someone how they were going to extinguish a fire they'd be able to tell me. Poor water over it. Remove its fuel supply etc.

Feminism is removing barriers to female integration within society.

By doing what?

Or do you need it explained to you how misogyny is a social barrier?

No I want to know how feminism is going to remove misogyny. Like I stated before.

'Why do you believe in gravity?'

I believe in gravity because I can observe its effect. I've yet to see any effect of feminism in games, and no one can explain how it is going to work.

 

[Tanakh]

It's a transcript of her Tropes V.S. Women video series. Specifically DiD Part 2.

Creepy? I would hope they spent enough time to become familiar with their arguments before disliking her. I mean, if not then it would seem like someone just hates them for crap reasons. Being that familiar with her work and still disliking her seems more like what a reasonable person would do: Give her a chance and come to their conclusion based on a fair chance given.

I read the basics, honestly don't see anything of value so won't use more time on it. She seems to go a la Simone de Beauvoir only 70 years later, and while totally speculative sociology has it's place (this kind of feminism in the 50s was VERY important), it does nothing for me; find it too akin to mental masturbation and like to read more experimental or demographic based works, crap, even anecdotic based works if they did a lot of legwork.

 

[runic knight]

From her second video (transcript as given on her website).

Okay, I read through that, concentrating specifically on the bolded parts. Where was the call to censorship?

You do realize there's a significant gulf between harsh criticism and pro-censorship, right? Ring me up when you have her...or anyone...quoted as saying "All sales of game X must be immediately halted because of reasons" and I will join you on the picket line. I will even bring a bitchin' sign.

So, when she says that games are dangerous, and it is irresponsible to make them, strongly imply they cause/contribute to violence against women and makes the same case that every anti-violence crusader has made against violent game, we are not suppose to assume she doesn't want the games made? No, that isn't a call for censorship itself, true, but hold on a minute.

Lets say I don't like green people. Whatever reasons, I just don't like green people. Now, I would never say to outright go and destroy them and never allow them to have offspring, that would be wrong. But what if I started by saying that green people caused all sorts of pain and suffering. I start talking about how it is selfish it is for them to have children and for hospitals to treat them and governments to support them. Now, it isn't genocide, not at all. And my voice was listened to by gullible people who would try to make those things into laws. It is just trying to guilt and pressure others into the same end result.

I am sorry, but when you start trying to correlate violence against women with video games like she has, you are no longer criticizing, you are being dishonest for whatever agenda. That she isn't crying out to stop making the games does not change the that she doesn't want them made, nor does it make the attempts to get that change through emotional manipulation of other people any less despicable. If what I was advocating in the end was the end of all green people, it would not matter if I was doing it more subtly. If what I was advocating in the end was the end of violent video games, it would not matter if I was only trying to draw false parallels to crime stats and game sales, as the effect would still be an increase in demand of others for the government to do that for them. Just because she is not a government official with power to censor herself does not mean her intent would not make use of people to create that same effect.

I find something very wrong with the thinking I see here, though I still don't think I explained why very well. Something just does not seem right about excusing a demagogue just because they had sense enough not to blurt their agenda out.

 

[Dragonbums]

These ones are used to attract men, though, so that's a pointless statement.

Soooo...
What can one draw to attract women? Games already have all stereotypes of all sexes out there. In games targeted at females men are either dumb hero type (Fireman, Policeman, hunky mechanic etc) or sexy provider type (not so hunky but slim and well/expensively dressed men with wide shoulders). Of course there are cartoony ones too, but they are irrelevant for this discussion just like cartoony females.

So yea, some women find even psychotic murderer like Kratos who is 100% unlikable since God of War 2 sexy and desirable. Many more would fall in arms of Nathan Drake without a second tought. So, yes we would like to be those guys, and one of the reason is becouse females would love to be WITH those guys.

Don't forget Garrus.
I don't think the creators of Mass Effect ever thought that a stick thin, scaly, bird/lizard/cat alien would enter the wet dreams of so many of my fellow ladies.

Perhaps we should compile a list of characters female gamers are most attracted to and see what similarities they tend to have.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

She however does say that games that don't fit her ideas of womanhood shouldn't be made. If saying something shouldn't be made because it doesn't fit your moral standards ain't a veiled way of censorship, then... what do you think it is?

Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body.

That's what I think censorship is. I don't think a woman saying "Here are games I think should be made, and here are games I think shouldn't" constitutes "censorship" in the slightest, although admittedly it makes for a terrifying buzzword for her more ardent detractors to throw about.

The more cogent argument is that critical pressure may result in artists self-censoring, at which point it becomes very difficult to determine whether the artist willingly responded to what they felt was insightful criticism, or responded out of fear of public censure. In the case of Dragon's Crown, Kamitani cheerfully declined to self-censor whilst thanking everyone for the criticism, so in this one case at least the pressure was clearly not particularly intense.

I am sorry, but when you start trying to correlate violence against women with video games like she has, you are no longer criticizing, you are being dishonest for whatever agenda.

Why is that "dishonest"? Violence is obviously multi-factorial. Do you argue that it is never moot to investigate or discuss whether or not art can contribute to societal trends, even in a tertiary fashion?

As for the rest, see above.

 

[runic knight]

It's a transcript of her Tropes V.S. Women video series. Specifically DiD Part 2.

Creepy? I would hope they spent enough time to become familiar with their arguments before disliking her. I mean, if not then it would seem like someone just hates them for crap reasons. Being that familiar with her work and still disliking her seems more like what a reasonable person would do: Give her a chance and come to their conclusion based on a fair chance given.

I read the basics, honestly don't see anything of value so won't use more time on it. She seems to go a la Simone de Beauvoir only 70 years later, and while totally speculative sociology has it's place (this kind of feminism in the 50s was VERY important), it does nothing for me; find it too akin to mental masturbation and like to read more experimental or demographic based works, crap, even anecdotic based works if they did a lot of legwork.

Oh I agree, it is total shit. I was just commentating that being familiar with her work is perfectly valid if someone dislikes her, rather then as you put it, creepy.

I suppose Baren posted his just to mention that the transcript is from her video, something that may have been a very common place people are introduced to her in. So even though it is valid to be familiar with her, it doesn't even require it when that is her video itself.

 

[Tanakh]

Feminism is removing barriers to female integration within society.

By doing what?

To be honest, what he said is plain wrong IMO, i would say stupidly so but i am kind of hostile, harsh and dumb. Economical and practical needs have integrated females to society, the great war, the need of more labor force, etc are the reason for the closing in the gap; feminism is more of a conscience of the disparity but a tool for removing barriers? For me it would be akin to saying the word gravity is the reason things fall and not the intrinsic change of shape that mass produces in the universe.

 

[Tanakh]

Oh I agree, it is total shit. I was just commentating that being familiar with her work is perfectly valid if someone dislikes her, rather then as you put it, creepy.

I suppose Baren posted his just to mention that the transcript is from her video, something that may have been a very common place people are introduced to her in. So even though it is valid to be familiar with her, it doesn't even require it when that is her video itself.

I see, my mistake was to think it was obscure. TBH i have yet to see a vid, only read complete transcripts, because i like to read more than see vids; so the popularity of a particular paragraph is a mistery to me, but the post i was talking about is so full of logic holes i thought it was obscure.

 

[wulf3n]

Feminism is removing barriers to female integration within society.

By doing what?

To be honest, what he said is plain wrong IMO, i would say stupidly so but i am kind of hostile, harsh and dumb. Economical and practical needs have integrated females to society, the great war, the need of more labor force, etc are the reason for the closing in the gap; feminism is more of a conscience of the disparity but a tool for removing barriers? For me it would be akin to saying the word gravity is the reason things fall and not the intrinsic change of shape that mass produces in the universe.

While I can't deny if that's true, I can point to actions taken by feminists in the early to mid 1900's which let people know they existed, they were equal, and they were many, just like the civil rights movement.

But the actions taken by the early feminists, aren't going to work in games, so I'm legitimately curious as to the new game plan to tackle the issue of misogyny in video games.

 

[runic knight]

Well part 3 is a fucking tautology practically. Actively fighting misogyny IS feminism. So if you establish that misogyny is bad, then it follows logically that fighting it is valuable.

Yet when asked, no one wants to explain what fighting misogyny with feminism actually entails.

That's probably because the question is malformed due to the fact that feminism IS opposing misogyny.

You might as well ask 'Why does no one tell how extinguishing fires is supposed to put them out?'

Feminism is removing barriers to female integration within society.

Misogyny is a barrier to their integration within society.

This isn't a difficult logical step. Or do you need it explained to you how misogyny is a social barrier? Do you ACTUALLY need someone to tell you that members of a community telling you that you do not belong in that community or only should be allowed within a small part of it might constitute a barrier to your participation in that community?

Seriously, some of this is actually pretty obvious, as obvious as dropping your pen on a table is a sufficient answer to 'Why do you believe in gravity?'

Misogyny is a hatred against women. One could easily argue that the existence of feminism itself has a backlash effect that creates misogyny.

Feminism is a movement based in striving for equality, historically and predominately by elevating women to the same standing as men. Historically, this was a lot more viable as the lack of equal rights made ti an obvious way to address things. Currently the fight has taken a more social/cultural battlefield where inequality in favor of one gender does not exist across the board. As such trying to push a solution that only attacks the issue from one side can and would cause a negative reaction out of those that feel they are being ignored, if not outright screwed over. See any sort of fight by feminist against topics addressing male rape or custody. Inequality causes resentment, anger and hate. It is not that women are not equal to men as though men have all rights and privilege, it is simply neither side is equal to the other. Because of this, you will get misogyny and androgyny. And that is before getting into the idea that those with power/authority do not like to give it up, so feminism itself can result in hate being generated in cultures where they see it as a threat to their way of life/religion.

While hatred against women can be a barrier to keep women out of society at large outside the western world, I was under the impression that the topic and the relative use of the terms applied to the western civilization the vast majority of the forum is a part of. A civilization that does not culturally or socially hate women as a whole, and which looks down at, to say the least, those that do.

So, no, I think it is a very valid question to ask. How does feminism fight misogyny in western civilization?

 

[carnex]

Also...out of curiosity...who determines what does and doesn't contribute to the "value of art"? Let me guess! Does their name rhyme with "Bolikar"?

In other words, what is Art. Art is one of those concepts that can't be really put in words. Usually it's defined as "something that has no purpouse but itself" which is load of bollocks if you ask me. Every "art" has additional purpouse even if it is to move us emotionally.

Therefore we have Pop art, Artwork, Work of art, Piece of art, Masterwork etc...

In the end it's either personal decision or decided by group of people in power.