Should immigrants be required to integrate to receive benefits?

[Zetatrain]

2: Even if they didn't, why would you need it? Millions upon millions of past immigrants have learned the language of the country they immigrated to without expensive lessons. To give one good example, Arnold Schwarzenegger immigrated to the US when he was 21, barely speaking a word of English (he had almost no money either). How did he learn English? By watching movies and TV, reading books, avoiding surrounding himself entirely with German speaking people, and doing everything he could to practice his English whenever possible (he did eventually take English classes, but not until 9 years after he arrived). When Schwarzenegger suggested that Hispanic immigrants do the same thing and turn off Univision and Telemundo and Spanish radio stations, he was called racist and was told that he "didn't understand immigration". Yes, a guy who immigrated here with no English ability and $17 in his pocket clearly knows nothing about the immigrant experience.

He understands his experience, not everyone is going to share it. He has the advantage, off the top of my head, of being a white European, and thus not subject to the same racism.

Yes, because no one in America hates, or has ever hated other white Europeans, like the Italians, or the Irish, or the French, or the Polish, or the Russians.

While this is true, it all depends on the time period as well the region. Now a days those nationalities don't face nearly as much (if any) racism as they used to. Schwarzenegger was Austrian, and since most Americans probably closely associate Austrian with German I'm gonna assume he never really had to face discrimination based on his race or nationality.

Considering that Germans were one of the more dominant European nationalities in America since its colonization and birth, they never really faced the kind of discrimination that the Irish and Italians did. While there was some discrimination against Germans in WWI and WWII, Arnold Schwarzenegger immigrated to the US in 1968, and any such discrimination against Germans would have most likely disappeared years ago.

 

[Strazdas]

Yes. If you come to my country, learn my culture, and when i come to yours, ill learn yours.

Is there only one culture in your country? Because there's a fair few in mine.

Yes. but thats not the point. you have to integrate into the culture you are coming to live and learn to respoect its laws and rules. you dont have to become one of them, but you have to know better than to rape a 13 year old and then claim "Thats how you do it in my culture".

Well, then obviuosly he wasnt happeir with his own culture that allowed to have poor standart of living.

I'm sorry thats the most ignorant comment i have seen in a good while. Economic conditions create poor standards of living. Its no surprise that tha vast majority of the Poor countries in the world are ex colonial.

Economical conditions are part of culture. Obviuosly, if he didnt like economical conditions, first of all he should have tried to make them better. but he was either a: lazy or b: couldnt due to cultural problems. thus he didnt like the culture, so he came here, where he "could". but then he has to learn culture of "Here" too. that is the price you pay for coming to live in another location. if you cant pay that - dont move.
Exception is of course when it is not your choice, like a work sends you to live somewhere else, that brings a problem. however its mostly a problem of your employer being a dick. You should still learn to live by the local laws or refuse to go though.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yes. If you come to my country, learn my culture, and when i come to yours, ill learn yours.

Is there only one culture in your country? Because there's a fair few in mine.

Yes. but thats not the point. you have to integrate into the culture you are coming to live and learn to respoect its laws and rules. you dont have to become one of them, but you have to know better than to rape a 13 year old and then claim "Thats how you do it in my culture".

Oh, so you mean just obeying the local rule of law and stuff?

In that case, I agree, though I've never heard "integration" to mean simple stuff like that.

 

[flarty]

Economical conditions are part of culture. Obviuosly, if he didnt like economical conditions, first of all he should have tried to make them better. but he was either a: lazy or b: couldnt due to cultural problems. thus he didnt like the culture, so he came here, where he "could". but then he has to learn culture of "Here" too. that is the price you pay for coming to live in another location. if you cant pay that - dont move.
Exception is of course when it is not your choice, like a work sends you to live somewhere else, that brings a problem. however its mostly a problem of your employer being a dick. You should still learn to live by the local laws or refuse to go though.

Do you even know what you are talking about? Or are you being as vague as possible to try and hide the fact you don't. They only way cultures should integrate in to society is by obey that society rules and learning the most common language. To say that this Turkish mans home land would suffer poor economic conditions due to its culture its total BS and not true, Turkish economy is stronger than many EU countries at the moment. If you want to go further into the middle east and find out why the standards of living are so poor, then you will notice its because that many of the countries have corrupt kings and dictators in charge supported by the west. When a country doesn't have a regime the west favors they suffer sanctions, like Iran.

 

[Ravesy]

If you're going to be a permanent resident of another country you should have to learn the language for exactly the reasons of this article. If he was able to speak German, and communicate with the other residents of the country, I'd bet he'd have a hell of a better chance of actually getting a NEW job and not sponging off the system.

How exactly are you meant to integrate into society and get a job in the country if you don't do this? Without wanting to be branded with the "Racist" card, this is what really infuriates me about some of the immigrants here in the UK, I have no issue with those who come over and contribute, but how are you meant to do that if you cant communicate with the population!

Good on you Germany for having the balls to do something others may not approve of.

 

[Strazdas]

Yes. If you come to my country, learn my culture, and when i come to yours, ill learn yours.

Is there only one culture in your country? Because there's a fair few in mine.

Yes. but thats not the point. you have to integrate into the culture you are coming to live and learn to respoect its laws and rules. you dont have to become one of them, but you have to know better than to rape a 13 year old and then claim "Thats how you do it in my culture".

Oh, so you mean just obeying the local rule of law and stuff?

In that case, I agree, though I've never heard "integration" to mean simple stuff like that.

Sort of. They should obey local law and know the cultural conducts, like not walking inside my house with shoes on and stuff like that. What they do in their personal life i dont care as long as they do not break the laws. Now i do consider language a requirement, becuase you cant really integrate if you cant talk to the locals.
I said that you should learn my culture, not make it your culture.

Economical conditions are part of culture. Obviuosly, if he didnt like economical conditions, first of all he should have tried to make them better. but he was either a: lazy or b: couldnt due to cultural problems. thus he didnt like the culture, so he came here, where he "could". but then he has to learn culture of "Here" too. that is the price you pay for coming to live in another location. if you cant pay that - dont move.
Exception is of course when it is not your choice, like a work sends you to live somewhere else, that brings a problem. however its mostly a problem of your employer being a dick. You should still learn to live by the local laws or refuse to go though.

Do you even know what you are talking about? Or are you being as vague as possible to try and hide the fact you don't. They only way cultures should integrate in to society is by obey that society rules and learning the most common language. To say that this Turkish mans home land would suffer poor economic conditions due to its culture its total BS and not true, Turkish economy is stronger than many EU countries at the moment. If you want to go further into the middle east and find out why the standards of living are so poor, then you will notice its because that many of the countries have corrupt kings and dictators in charge supported by the west. When a country doesn't have a regime the west favors they suffer sanctions, like Iran.

I think its rather a case of you not understanding what i want to say to begin with.
But i explined it above more or less.
Turkish economy is weaker than many EU countries, which is obviuos by turkey economy being poorer. but i never claiemd that country X is stronger, as no coutnry was mentioned in my previuos posts.
Corrupt kings and dictators is part of the culture. Its a part that is not easy to change, granted, but it still is part of it. You can very easily dont like this part of your culture and like the rest of it. nothing wrong with that. but you shouldnt try to instigate such part of the culture - for example shariat law - in country of your destination. instead you accept that your destination has different culture that you must abide to.

 

[Kittyhawk]

I see no problem with this idea. Any minority should do their best to integrate into a new country they've made their home. Learning languages isn't that hard especially with government help, tutors etc, people have been doing it for generations without such help. Attaching such to state benefits may seem harsh, but is a positive move.

This same idea is also coming up in the U.K, where we have large communities that don't make the effort to learn english, because they can rely on their own communities for everything they need for life. While that's nice and cozy, this kind of isolationism creates more walls than bridges and road with lack of english being a real problem. No one needs a ghetto so for everyone to learn and understand basic english really isn't asking too much. I'm a minority by the way and I encourage it.

I notice there's a push in the U.S to learn/teach spanish because of a rising mexican/hispanic populous. I'm not wrong in saying this should be the other way around. If you want to be a full U.S citizen and move there for a better life, do them the courtesy of learning to speak english or 'Merican' as some might call it. No offence meant, but its the U.S.A, not Mexico. Not doing so is shirking a certain degree of due diligence that could on day benefit you and any other citizen, through the most basic knowledge.

Ignorance is no guard as they say. The more you know, the easier life will be.

 

[Skratt]

If they pay their taxes, remind my why I should care?

 

[flarty]

Turkish economy is weaker than many EU countries, which is obviuos by turkey economy being poorer. but i never claiemd that country X is stronger, as no coutnry was mentioned in my previuos posts.

The chap in the article is Turkish, did you not read the article?
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21579491-turkey-remains-highly-exposed-loss-confidence-foreign-investors-strong-vulnerable
Tell me again what sort of growth European economies have been seeing recently

Corrupt kings and dictators is part of the culture.

Whos culture exactly? theirs or ours? Since many of the corrupt kings and dictators have been placed in power or come to power by western means.

you shouldnt try to instigate such part of the culture - for example shariat law - in country of your destination. instead you accept that your destination has different culture that you must abide to.

You talk of sharia law as its set in stone. Heres a task for you, go find me a book of sharia law.

I agree when migrating to a new country to live, you should learn its language and abide by the countries laws but making the groundless assumptions you have would mean they can't maintain any of there culture. Take your example of sharia law, majority of Muslims regard it as a moral code whilst abiding by the laws of the state.

 

[Nymi]

Yes.

If they don't want to integrate in the country, they don't want to live there. They should leave. Simple.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Yes they should. You live in england, learn english. You live in France, learn french. An accept the customs of those countries. How are you meant to be able to work and communicate if you dont learn that countries language? Or you doing is allowing people to live apart and alone from that country. If i moved from the UK to Germany, I would learn the language so i can communicate and live in that country. Why would you move to another country and yet live in isolation from those people....if your going do that, then just stay in your own country where you can live, work and communicate with them.

You shouldnt move to any country and get benefits. If you live in Germany, you need to speak german to be able to get a job, being that german is the language their. So why should you get benefits when there is zero chance of you working there because you cant speak the language? Sick of this bullshit. Rule one....you move to UK, learn English or you get nothing. Not for my tax to pay for people that dont want to work, integrate and just want a free ride in life. Learn English or go home. Which is what i would expect if i went to live in a foreign country.

 

[Amnesiac Pigeon]

No.

If they're working, contributing to society and being an all round good citizen without it then why should they have to? They were happy to let them speak their own language when they were contributing to the economy, why should that change because they require some help from social welfare?

If someone speaking another language in "your" country makes you paranoid and uncomfortable then the problem lies with you, not them.

Having said that, maybe it should be encouraged from a practical perspective and, if i were moving to another country, I would certainly try to learn the language but I don't see why it would be mandatory.

Surely people need to be able to speak the language of the country they're living in.

How would you interact with other people (something that has to be done in any workplace) when you can't even speak the same language?

If you don't go through the effort to learn the language how are you going to be able to do any job that can pay for your place in that country?

If I spent all my time in France. You'd be damn sure I'd learn French so I could at least function within that society.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

One other thing. Think of the country as your home, who would you be happy to let in your home? Who would you kick out? If a person came in, didnt talk to you yet still ate your food and drink. Would you allow that or kick them out? Im sorry but people playing the race card are the problem and why you cant talk about the immigration issue like adults. If i wanted to live in France, then i would learn french so i can communicate with the people their. If you dont want to learn the language, then dont go there. Its common sense. Wish the UK would learn this.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Ever hear the tale of the Tower of Babel?

Always helps if you can speak, listen, understand and respond correctly in one of more languages, where ever you go in the world. Also stops you from tearing each other apart through lack of understanding.

Fear, racism, ignorance etc, these are all things born of lack of knowledge. To be remiss and aloof to learning the language of the country you move to is not only rude but hurts every effort you make in your life. When the frustration sets in and you end up arguing like those people in the tale, you will always feel that way or worse.

I feel the plight of minorities, but do not hide behind excuses and community walls. I have been a victim of racism before, but I have never let that hold me back from learning anything. Most language classes to minorities are also free so there is no excuse to not attend, like its somehow beneath you. German is actually one of the easier euro languages to learn, as its a lot like english.

Escapist is a gaming site and we love lot of japanese stuff. Japan still has a large problem in its isolationism because its ultimate fear, of some is somehow having its culture lost and overrun by foreign invaders culture (its mass culture driven paranoia for the most part). Now there's a dark side to Japan which is that the japanese government (and possibly media) do their best to paint learning english in a negative light. English is taught to kids to a certain early age, but stops when kids would possibly grasp it fully. By design, many japanese still have poor to no english as a result. (Its kind of jokey english broken teaching, with keen english teachers, but a warped teaching program). Surely, more of them would be able to speak english after all those years of teaching? Nope. It will be this way with bad rules in place.

Immigrants in Japan are very few because of the language barrier and harsh immigration laws etc. If you don't learn japanese out there, naturally its very very difficult to live a reasonable day to day life. I'd love to see the fool who goes there and tries to live without learning some japanese first, because its some how beneath you to do so. For those that bother the fruits of japan are open to them. I still hear stories of Japanese people amazed that foreigners know their language. Now why would that be? Probably because they are culturally told, gaijin are this and that, when its far from the truth.

That old ignorance and fear raising its head again and promoted by old school government isolationism, making japan its own kind of island ghetto, that few penetrate. (Feel free to correct if any of this is wrong or you have a better view)

So again, to the Turk guy, just jump all over that free German lessons program and make your life easier. Nothing to lose and more to gain. Your taxes have already paid for the lessons too.

 

[Strazdas]

Turkish economy is weaker than many EU countries, which is obviuos by turkey economy being poorer. but i never claiemd that country X is stronger, as no coutnry was mentioned in my previuos posts.

The chap in the article is Turkish, did you not read the article?
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21579491-turkey-remains-highly-exposed-loss-confidence-foreign-investors-strong-vulnerable
Tell me again what sort of growth European economies have been seeing recently

It is irrelevant what nationality the guy in orginal article was.
Europe save for couple troubled places, is seeing a stable and slow growth, that isnt overblown as pre-crysis growth usually is, which is what caused the thing to begin with - inrealistic growth.
FOr example Gross Domestic Product: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tec00115

Whos culture exactly? theirs or ours? Since many of the corrupt kings and dictators have been placed in power or come to power by western means.

Theirs. Our corrupt dictators are still part of their culture. There is nothing wrong with not liking your culture.

You talk of sharia law as its set in stone. Heres a task for you, go find me a book of sharia law.

There are two sources of Sharia (understood as the divine law): the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Qur'an is viewed as the unalterable word of God. The Sunnah is the life and example of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The Sunnah's importance as a source of Sharia, is confirmed by several verses of the Qur'an.
Im pretty sure you can find those two books yourself, right?

I agree when migrating to a new country to live, you should learn its language and abide by the countries laws but making the groundless assumptions you have would mean they can't maintain any of there culture. Take your example of sharia law, majority of Muslims regard it as a moral code whilst abiding by the laws of the state.

Once again saying things i never said and attributing it to me.
Moral codes are personal and thats where they should stay. When it comes to laws we must wage benefit and damage to all parties and not somones personal morality. and they have to abide to such law or go back the way they came from, regardless of their personal morality.

 

[flarty]

It is irrelevant what nationality the guy in orginal article was.
Europe save for couple troubled places, is seeing a stable and slow growth, that isnt overblown as pre-crysis growth usually is, which is what caused the thing to begin with - inrealistic growth.
FOr example Gross Domestic Product: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tec00115

Sorry has nothing to do with it? I thought we was discussing the min article so it would be the perfect example? Or doesn't it matter because it doesn't serve your argument?

A part from the 5 big EU countries, Spain (who are still struggling with recession) Germany that has bailed the EU out more times than once, UK (whose economy is in tatters and will be even more so when London is no longer the financial centre of the world), France (the 2nd biggest EU economy is tinkering on the edge of recession) and Italy(who still yet may need a bailout). Its quite clear to see a trend here.
Apart from those 5 countries, Turkey has a GDP on par or higher than the remaining 23 countries, and posting growth all whilst massive recession on one side and war in Syria on the other i the last 2 - 3 years.

Theirs. Our corrupt dictators are still part of their culture. There is nothing wrong with not liking your culture.

Really? Because before we carved the region up into individual countries and handed power over to such dictators, it was the Ottoman empire in charge, so i fail to see how that is so. Especially since the Ottomans had seperate laws and courts for Jews, Christians and Muslims, so they could live their lives according to their faith. It would seem the only dictating going on then was your choice in religion.

There are two sources of Sharia (understood as the divine law): the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Qur'an is viewed as the unalterable word of God. The Sunnah is the life and example of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The Sunnah's importance as a source of Sharia, is confirmed by several verses of the Qur'an.
Im pretty sure you can find those two books yourself, right?

I think you miss the entire point, there is no definitive sharia law, it is open to interpretation. For example, the sunnah is contained in the hadiths, there are various different haddiths and Sunni and Shia Muslims both have different hadiths, then of course there is sufism and several others. A big example would be the demonstrations and protests recently in turkey, which started because Erodogan is a bit of an Islamist.

Once again saying things i never said and attributing it to me.
Moral codes are personal and thats where they should stay. When it comes to laws we must wage benefit and damage to all parties and not somones personal morality. and they have to abide to such law or go back the way they came from, regardless of their personal morality.

As I said your idea of an immigrant leaving his sharia in his homeland is due to your ignorance or mis-education on the subject. If his sharia is nothing more than a moral code then he must be allowed to practice it. If his sharia is the infallible word of god, then he can join the other 0.001% of nutters in the western world.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Hard to say, a few of my parent friends were orginally from China or Hong Kong and they can't speak English at all (thus my parent pretty much act as their translator).

Granted the only know benefit I know of from them is child related (one of them had a child last year) but I won't called them dead weight to the UK society (they own and cook like any other take away foods).

Even then trying to speak a new language as an adult is suppose to be a very hard thing to do eventhought I would prefer my parent friends to try to learn it.

I guess I'm saying while it could be implicated (NOT in a forceful way but to encourage) but in reality it would be difficult to pulled off without any problems or it won't happen at all.

 

[Strazdas]

Sorry has nothing to do with it? I thought we was discussing the min article so it would be the perfect example? Or doesn't it matter because it doesn't serve your argument?

We were comparing two natin economies. the nationality of the person in OP does not matter for this discussion.

part from the 5 big EU countries, Spain (who are still struggling with recession) Germany that has bailed the EU out more times than once, UK (whose economy is in tatters and will be even more so when London is no longer the financial centre of the world), France (the 2nd biggest EU economy is tinkering on the edge of recession) and Italy(who still yet may need a bailout). Its quite clear to see a trend here.
Apart from those 5 countries, Turkey has a GDP on par or higher than the remaining 23 countries, and posting growth all whilst massive recession on one side and war in Syria on the other i the last 2 - 3 years.

Let me remind you that you were the first one to talk about growth.
The other countries may not be so huge in aboslute numbers, but thats only because they are much smaller in teritory compared to turkey. absolutes are incomparible between nations anyway. Spain is struggling with its own stupidity now, and doing a good job with it. London wasnt the economical center of the world pretty much since Wall Street got popular. And France is doing fine. The recession is over with exception from thieves greeks[footnote]They cheated the European bank when joining EU siphoning billions of euros into the country and isntead of investing them they got lazy and ate it away[/footnote], corrupt italians[footnote]In italy you are considered a fool if your not avoiding taxes[/footnote] and Spain.
Turkey is not posting growth, they actually havent posted anything but forecasts since 2010. probably because their afraid the real numbers arent that nice.

Really? Because before we carved the region up into individual countries and handed power over to such dictators, it was the Ottoman empire in charge, so i fail to see how that is so. Especially since the Ottomans had seperate laws and courts for Jews, Christians and Muslims, so they could live their lives according to their faith. It would seem the only dictating going on then was your choice in religion.

Regardless who is in charge, your culture is still your curture, even if it is manfuactured by outside power.

I think you miss the entire point, there is no definitive sharia law, it is open to interpretation. For example, the sunnah is contained in the hadiths, there are various different haddiths and Sunni and Shia Muslims both have different hadiths, then of course there is sufism and several others. A big example would be the demonstrations and protests recently in turkey, which started because Erodogan is a bit of an Islamist.

Just like there are many interpretations of the bible. The problem with taking that as a law was quite clear from history. They want to do that with sharia, or well whatever local interpretation of it happens to be.

As I said your idea of an immigrant leaving his sharia in his homeland is due to your ignorance or mis-education on the subject. If his sharia is nothing more than a moral code then he must be allowed to practice it.

Like i said, you dont even understand what i was saying to begin with. I never said anything to contradict this.
No nuters though. Anyone demanding laws change just because "it was different where i come from" deserves to be sent back to where he came from.

 

[flarty]

We were comparing two natin economies. the nationality of the person in OP does not matter for this discussion.

No I used the comparison of Turkey because the chap in the original article was Turkish, you also claimed he wasn't happy with own culture and standard of living, see below.

Let me remind you that you were the first one to talk about growth.

Really? i remember you posting something like this.

Well, then obviuosly he wasnt happeir with his own culture that allowed to have poor standart of living.

Or are you going to tell me that standard of living is in no way related to the economic growth of a country?

The other countries may not be so huge in aboslute numbers, but thats only because they are much smaller in teritory compared to turkey.

Really does size matter that much? Well please educate me how Britain was the world superpower 100 years ago, its so tiny.

Spain is struggling with its own stupidity now, and doing a good job with it.

Spain was a result of massive foreign investment in housing and property, the bubble burst. Up until the crash in 2008 Spain was one of the best looking Euro zone countries with its GDP to debt ratio falling while all other countries were rising. So please explain to me how it was due to their own stupidity?

London wasnt the economical center of the world pretty much since Wall Street got popular.

Really? How bizzare when i see articles like this all the time
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4772c47c-9310-11e2-b3be-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2gJFONMPu

And France is doing fine.

Really?
http://www.businessinsider.com/france-is-heading-for-the-biggest-economic-train-wreck-in-europe-2013-8
As I said its still tinkering on the edge.

The recession is over with exception from thieves greeks[footnote]They cheated the European bank when joining EU siphoning billions of euros into the country and isntead of investing them they got lazy and ate it away[/footnote], corrupt italians[footnote]In italy you are considered a fool if your not avoiding taxes[/footnote] and Spain.

Yet 2 out of 3 of those countries are 2 of the biggest economies in the EU.

Turkey is not posting growth, they actually havent posted anything but forecasts since 2010. probably because their afraid the real numbers arent that nice.

I guess the economist fabricated all the figures in this article then and whats worse is I have already posted this article once, and you still proceeded with this claim.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21579491-turkey-remains-highly-exposed-loss-confidence-foreign-investors-strong-vulnerable

Regardless who is in charge, your culture is still your curture, even if it is manfuactured by outside power.

Google oxymoron. If an outside power manufactures something, that means that its is not yours. For example Harley Davidson are sold here in England, but are American.

Just like there are many interpretations of the bible. The problem with taking that as a law was quite clear from history. They want to do that with sharia, or well whatever local interpretation of it happens to be.

Do they really? All 1.6 billion Muslims in the world are hardline Islamist? Maybe you could explain to me why Syria has a secular Government, Iran had secular Governments up until the American-British backed coup of the 50's, along with Pakistan, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia and of course Turkey.

Like i said, you dont even understand what i was saying to begin with. I never said anything to contradict this.
No nuters though. Anyone demanding laws change just because "it was different where i come from" deserves to be sent back to where he came from.

You still seem to think Sharia law is the evil and all Muslims are intent on imposing it wherever they go. In all honesty you haven't got a clue what your talking about have you? You see things in passing and repeat it in a bid to look clever without investigating it.