Should immigrants be required to integrate to receive benefits?

[lunavixen]

The thing is, the government has not taken an unreasonable stance, the way I see it the government isn't trying to cram it down her throat, the husband is preventing his wife from looking for better work and rejecting job offers, even though there are jobs that he could work. If the wife took the offer for FREE lessons in German, she could get a better job to support her family seeing as he can't (or won't), the husband is to the point of making excuses for not finding work.

I don't think anyone should be forced to learn the language, but if they're offered the chance to learn through outreach programs, do I think they should take it? Hell yes!

 

[Mitzeh]

If you move to another country, as in: go to live there with no intention of going back to your home country anytime soon, then yes, you should have to learn the language spoken there. This should be common sense. You don't just move somewhere else and not make even a bit of an effort.
If you just go there and join a group of people from your old country and only speak with those people because that's the only language you know, you can't really be a real part of the country's society. At one point you will be a pain the ass for someone else who can speak said country's language and can't speak the only language you know.
Granted, there can be exceptions. Going to another country just to work for a couple of month, maybe a year? Then sure, if it doesn't affect you in your workplace, you don't need to learn another language.

I live in a city that is really close to the border( 30 min car drive close ) and that could explain my stance. There are quite a few people from other countries who have moved here and they don't speak our country's language. And most of them even refuse to learn it, it's not that they aren't able to. The government offers special classes in school just for them so they can learn in their language. Shop/restaurant/whatever owners offer signs in both languages for pretty much everything. We translate pretty much everything for them just so they can be a part of our society and that doesn't strike me as fair on their part, if they don't even make a small effort and meet us halfway.

To sum it all up: yes, make people that move to a country learn the language. This only applies to people that move from now on, you don't force people that have lived there for many years suddenly learn the language. Worst case scenario, you give them 6 months or 1 year to at least learn the basics.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Forced? No. Heavily encouraged? Yes.

Up here in Canada we use a points-based immigration system. It's possible to get enough points without knowing the native language, but knowing english (and french) grants you a good amount of points.

 

[bfgmetalhead]

Offer incentives to those who are willing to put in the effort to integrate. Like "hay immigrant 1 you gonna learn our culture/language to help reduce social tension?" "I sure am!" "here is a bonus 25% on your welfare payments".

 

[Thaluikhain]

Do you also provide free, conveniently-located language classes?

For that to work, wouldn't that require each class to be taught be someone speaking a language the people already spoke?

Otherwise sounds like a good idea.

No. It's very possible to teach language classes without using the learners' L1. Right now I can speak very functional Japanese but I make a point of refusing to use it or even acknowledge that I understand it in my classes in order to force my students to extend themselves and take risks in English.

The input language has to be comprehensible. Translating it into the L1 is in the long run the worst way to make it comprehensible, because it allows the learner to rely on translations rather than get into the habit of inferring meaning from context, which is one of the most vital skills any language learner can have.

There is also a kind of vibrancy that arises in classes where the students come from a variety of language backgrounds. They're all roughly at the same level, so suddenly there's much less anxiety about making language mistakes. And since they're all in the same bucket together, they usually want to be friends with each other. That means exchanging information. And if they don't have a common language, that means they are forced to use the language of the classroom as the medium for communication.

What you do need is someone who is skilled at teaching the local language. Unfortunately, a lot of managers think knowing the language is the same thing as being able to teach the language, so there's a temptation to farm out the teaching position to any local volunteer willing to accept minimal payment. Which means odds are the quality of instruction is going to be lower, student progress is going to be slower, and there's more likelihood that students will get dissatisfied and drop out.

Er...doesn't that require the students have some minimum amount of the language they are learning, though? If so, how do you teach them that to begin with?

 

[Fox12]

Forced? Hell no.
Encouraged? Definitely.
I say this because, even if the country is very lax with this kind of things, you still came to the country and live there. It kind of feels like guest logic: You came, you're going to be polite, you're not going to make a mess if you can help it, etc. Learning the country's language falls under the category of politeness. Although applied to this case it seems kind of unnecessary dickishness from Germany's part.

I'm still kind of speaking out of my ass with this one but fuck it, thats what I think.

Pretty much this. I'm not a fan of coercion, and I don't think it's the governments place to force anyone to change their culture.

However, learning the language of your residence should be encouraged, I think, both for the benefit of the individual and for the benefit of society at large. There's a difference, though, between creating an incentive to learn a language and trying to punish them for being foreign.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

"Forcing" someone to culturally integrate just doesn't work. The best anyone can hope for out of that mindset is an opportunity for the established population to bully anyone who doesn't act like they want them to. Take for example, the oft-repeated demand that immigrants should "learn the language". How? Do you also provide free, conveniently-located language classes? Because that's something you need if you want to demand people learn your language. Oh, you think just by being surround by native speakers the immigrant will magically learn your language through osmosis, because some other immigrants learned the language without classes therefore everyone can just pick it up by being there and the only people who don't, don't want to? How quaint!

To learn a language you at a minimum need massive amounts of comprehensible input. Now yes, it is possible for an immigrant to just force people to make their language comprehensible (demand people draw pictures and point to visual examples while they talk, etc) but it takes ages and requires the immigrant to be in a position where they are free to actively interact with locals in an unstructured way for many hours every day. If you're an immigrant whose job is say, laboring on a farm for 10 hours a day, you do not get that linguistic interaction. So you need a class with a skilled teacher to re-package daily language and make it comprehensible for you. And that teacher needs to make classes available at a time when you can attend. And you need to be able to get to those classes from wherever you live. That's the first barrier.

Second, people don't learn language without motivation. If you're an immigrant, and you see in your new adopted homeland nothing but resentment for your people, that kills motivation. If you see other people from your homeland getting discriminated against, regardless of how well they've learned the language, that kills motivation. If you see that you only can get support from banding together with others from your homeland because there are no local services that outreach to you and yours, that kills motivation. Such people are going to cling to their native language because it preserves who they are.

If you really want people to integrate into your culture, you have to make it a culture people want to integrate to. You have to make language classes available, which unfortunately means squaring the circle of needing qualified teachers who are expensive to hire, to teach a class to people who probably can't afford to pay what the teachers deserve. Which means you need some extra funding from somewhere. Then you need to incentivize integration, which means more carrot and less stick. One good strategy is making it easier for immigrants to get permanent resident status when they prove they have reached a certain level of language competency. But finally, you need to be realistic. No one is going to truly integrate into any society because no society has a uniform culture and everyone has baggage. And it's all well and good to say, "Just demand a level of integration that they don't do anything that upsets the locals," but the fact is in every society, some of the locals are racist busy-bodies who will be upset by anything the immigrants do that is different from the local culture. Immigrants are going to bring parts of their local culture with them- there's no way to stop it. Culture flows like water, and the only way to keep it from being affected by other cultural currents is to completely wall it off from contact with the outside until it stagnates.

Several things.
1: If you read the article, Germany does, in fact, offer free classes to learn German for immigrants.

2: Even if they didn't, why would you need it? Millions upon millions of past immigrants have learned the language of the country they immigrated to without expensive lessons. To give one good example, Arnold Schwarzenegger immigrated to the US when he was 21, barely speaking a word of English (he had almost no money either). How did he learn English? By watching movies and TV, reading books, avoiding surrounding himself entirely with German speaking people, and doing everything he could to practice his English whenever possible (he did eventually take English classes, but not until 9 years after he arrived). When Schwarzenegger suggested that Hispanic immigrants do the same thing and turn off Univision and Telemundo and Spanish radio stations, he was called racist and was told that he "didn't understand immigration". Yes, a guy who immigrated here with no English ability and $17 in his pocket clearly knows nothing about the immigrant experience.

3: "If you see that you only can get support from banding together with others from your homeland because there are no local services that outreach to you and yours, that kills motivation." No local services that outreach to you? This guy is on welfare, he has put six kids through free public schools, has access to free language lessons, and has access to free healthcare, what the hell other "local services" does he possibly need?

4: "If you really want people to integrate into your culture, you have to make it a culture people want to integrate to." This may be the most bizarre statement I've ever read. So a country with a distinct culture needs to change literally thousands of years of culture rooted in their history and experience to make it more accommodating and 'better' to people who want to immigrate to that country, so they'll be more motivated to put forth an effort? So if I immigrate to Germany and I don't like beer, the Germans need to get rid of Oktoberfest so I'll be more inclined to learn German? How about I move to Pakistan, should all women take off their Hijabs and Burkas because I don't like it, and that way I'll be more inclined to learn Urdu?

 

[Kaymish]

Yes they should have to integrate not only is integration good for the society as a whole by fostering unity and discouraging isolated enclaves
if you do not want to integrate why not go back to your own scum hole county if it was so great there if you are coming to make a better life for yourself and your family you have to grasp the whole lot including our society and culture and not make it shit hole mk2 in another part of the world

of course i am not saying that other cultures have nothing to add but there has to be something lesser about them if the people are wanting to emigrate or flee and integration is the best way to add to the pot and strengthen the whole

 

[Ihateregistering1]

SNIP

"Schwarzenegger moved to the US and immediately began training in Gold's Gym in Venice, LA. That means he went directly into an English-speaking environment, where he had loads of free time to seek clarification of words he didn't understand. His lifestyle afforded him the freedom and flexibility to make the English he was surrounded by comprehensible."
You fail to acknowledge what Ah-nold himself said about what helped him learn: watching English television and movies, reading English books, and doing everything within his power to avoid speaking German, even when he was with people who spoke German. Since he probably wasn't watching TV or reading while lifting weights, his advice is sound, but when he attempts to help people by telling them to avoid exposing themselves entirely to telemundo or Univision, he gets called a racist.

"And if you want to encourage integration, you don't put the onus on the immigrant to figure out how."
Yes, you do. When someone immigrates to a new country, the onus is on them to integrate to the new country, not on the new country to integrate to their needs and desires. That's like saying Police in western countries should turn a blind eye to "honor killings" or domestic violence, since the onus is on them to accommodate the culture of the immigrants, not the other way around.
Another example: Minneapolis/St. Paul has the highest population of Somali immigrants in the US. Many of them work as cab drivers. Some years ago, there was a big problem because many of the cab drivers who worked at the airport were refusing to pick up customers who had alcohol on them (that they purchased at the duty-free shop) saying it violated their religious beliefs. The solution? The cab drivers were told: too bad, pick up the customers or quit. Simple solution: people don't exist to accommodate your religious or cultural beliefs. Maybe in Somalia that would have been acceptable, but this isn't Somalia.

"But it also has to be an open and robust society that can tolerate a little cultural variation without the locals throwing racist tantrums"
Having a belief that someone who immigrates to a country should put forth an effort to learn the official language is hardly a "racist tantrum". Actually, race literally has no bearing, as the word "immigrant" is not synonymous with any particular ethnic group.

Understand your point on KSA vs. UAE, but KSA is so insanely different from a western European Secular Democracy that they are literally incomparable. Something as simple as "you need to try and learn the native language to get welfare benefits" is not even in the same stratosphere as "if you kiss a woman in public we will execute you".

As far as I'm concerned, if you wish to move to a new country and not even attempt to learn the native tongue and reject the culture, knock yourself out. But quit acting like said country somehow owes you something when you won't lift a finger for them.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

You see, the problem here was that they allowed him to be a citizen there without making sure he could speak the language. So, in this case, it's the country's fault that he's not speaking the language.

The moral of this story is that countries need to require that you speak the language of that country in order to be a citizen in the first place for the sake of order.

 

[Tanakh]

Mhee, I would be all for it as long as the country citizens are forced to pass the same test and you have more than 1 language per country. Honestly think most dixieland americans would fail.

Since we are forcing people not to be retarded, I would also implement a compulsory probability and arithmetic test, basic science, history and art. The math in me says at least differential equations and measure theory, but might be a bit too much.

 

[Tanis]

YES.

If you move to another nation, and play on staying there, you damn well better learn the language and basic customs.

If you're on 'welfare', I think you should be cut off if you can't at least WRITE in the local language.

 

[Signa]

I want to say no, because it sounds ignorant and terrible, but then I ask myself, if they are refusing to learn about the community they are a part of then why are they here? I'm sure there is a multitude of acceptable answers to that question, but I still find it completely disrespectful to the country they have made themselves a part of.

 

[Joccaren]

Learn the language? Yes
"Integrate" - whatever the hell that's supposed to mean -? Not really.
If you move to another country as a permanent residence, you should be required to speak at least one of the most common languages in that country. I'm not going to move to Turkey, Germany, Japan, China, France or wherever and expect everyone to know my English. That's rude and disrespectful, and really what's the point of going to that country if you're not going to try to 'integrate' a little?
However, language is where it should stop. So long as you're not trying to force your beliefs on others, you should be able to follow your own beliefs in a country you move to - so long as they're legal there [I.E: If your beliefs contradict a certain country's legal views on women's rights, you'll need to conform in that area]. You should be free to practice whatever religion you want, live whatever legal lifestyle you want, and interact with whatever subgroup of people in the nation you want. You shouldn't be forced to do anything to compromise your beliefs, provided you don't try to force others to compromise theirs, and your beliefs don't lead to illegal actions.
Basically, you should make the bare minimum effort to become a part of that country, not just expect to receive support off it whilst not respecting it. That means being able to speak to other people in that country. You don't have to be good at it, and able to communicate as well as natives, or people who have been learning the language the whole life, but you should have the basic skills for everyday phrases that you'll use.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Should it be obligatory to learn the language? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes. It's the most important and easiest way to get rid of prejudices, get along with the locals, bring yourself across more clearly etc. Everything tends to sort itself out when you can speak the same language.