A karma system is a poor man's reputation system. The Elder Scrolls already has a good reputation system. Karma systems are also an invitation for crappy, obvious writing, which is the last thing Skyrim needs.Lancallot said:
Should Skyrim have a Karma system?
- Thread starter Lancallot
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Faction system > karma system - just look at FO:NV. One system contributes to the game's storytelling, the other actively undermines it. Of course, this would require Bethesada to have factions that are actually interesting, which they don't seem to do all of the time.
Karma is annoying and a dealbreaker for me. I see the reason to rate the player on his actions in a visible way to explain the reactions of npcs towards the character to the player, but it never makes any sense. Why is this action more evil than the other? Is it really a 'good' thing to do that? It's just Black and White, no middle ground, no way of being a somewhat good person who has selfish moments when presented with material gain or being a powerhungry, unemotional person who just once or twice decides to be a good guy, when nobody is watching. Sure you can do that, it just doesn't work. You'll just add or substract points from the scale and in the end, you're either classified as evil or good. Unless moral and karma become way more sophisticated, I don't want to see another Karma meter in any game. And I know Bioware and CD Project are notorious for making sure every action will be of consequence, I hate that just as much.
That's maybe a little more realistic, but I don't want to be presented with (for example) three options on how to solve a situation and all three will later come to bite me in the butt. If I work hard and do everything my character is able to, I should be able to solve things in a good way. I don't like doing everything in a good matter, helping and doing good to see that it was wrong and I'm stupid for ever considering that. I can't really give an example for that now, but it makes me somewhat angry to never have the option to actively do good and change the world for the better, like a hero should be able to. That links into dialogue systems being very clearly segmented and you don't get to see the full sentence anymore so you never know what the few words given to you will turn out to be in full dialogue, but that's another issue.
I personally don't want to see a Karma meter. If they need to, make it like in Metro 2033 and don't blatantly state "you're a nice person" or "you're a dastardly villainious person". Make it subtle. Or don't include karma at all, let the player decide if he wants to take the food out of that peasants house or if he wants to take the taxes from the lord's treasure chamber.
That's maybe a little more realistic, but I don't want to be presented with (for example) three options on how to solve a situation and all three will later come to bite me in the butt. If I work hard and do everything my character is able to, I should be able to solve things in a good way. I don't like doing everything in a good matter, helping and doing good to see that it was wrong and I'm stupid for ever considering that. I can't really give an example for that now, but it makes me somewhat angry to never have the option to actively do good and change the world for the better, like a hero should be able to. That links into dialogue systems being very clearly segmented and you don't get to see the full sentence anymore so you never know what the few words given to you will turn out to be in full dialogue, but that's another issue.
I personally don't want to see a Karma meter. If they need to, make it like in Metro 2033 and don't blatantly state "you're a nice person" or "you're a dastardly villainious person". Make it subtle. Or don't include karma at all, let the player decide if he wants to take the food out of that peasants house or if he wants to take the taxes from the lord's treasure chamber.
No Karma.
I would prefer the Fame v Infamy deal
The only thing it really did was effect the ability to wear the Knights of the Nine gear
I would prefer the Fame v Infamy deal
The only thing it really did was effect the ability to wear the Knights of the Nine gear
[HEADING=1]NO![/HEADING]
Like it's predecesors, it should be more about what you did than whether you're good or evil. Karma should only be used for characterization and nothing more.
Like it's predecesors, it should be more about what you did than whether you're good or evil. Karma should only be used for characterization and nothing more.
Karma systems only feel right to me when the characters judge you, not the game itself.
New Vegas's factions got it just right.
New Vegas's factions got it just right.
NO.
Seriously, the game can do without.
A notoriety system would be good, but not a morality one.
Seriously, the game can do without.
A notoriety system would be good, but not a morality one.
Hell no, not in the traditional sense anyway.
In my opinion, a good/evil system is extremely irritating and generally a poor design. I shouldn't need a game to tell me if I'm being good or evil; the storytelling should be good enough to convey that without a meter. This is especially important considering that games with good/evil often leave no space of subtlety. Everything is either positive or negative, as opposed to heroic acts for the wrong reasons or horrific ones with the best of intentions, both of which are far more interesting from an RP and story point of view.
Instead, 'morality' should be conveyed through reputation with both people and factions, like in Dragon Age where your party members judged your actions from their own points of view rather than the game dictating to you that a sacrifice for the greater good was in fact evil. Preferably morality would be more than just a bar, so some actions might be unforgivable, or other might make you a hero to a faction through sheer importance. I remember an immersion shattering moment in DA2 for example, where Anders would have willingly helped me capture escaped mages with nothing more than a grumble and gain in rivalry points. It would have made more sense to me for him to storm off and refuse to speak to me again, even over something as 'petty' as a sidequest.
In my opinion, a good/evil system is extremely irritating and generally a poor design. I shouldn't need a game to tell me if I'm being good or evil; the storytelling should be good enough to convey that without a meter. This is especially important considering that games with good/evil often leave no space of subtlety. Everything is either positive or negative, as opposed to heroic acts for the wrong reasons or horrific ones with the best of intentions, both of which are far more interesting from an RP and story point of view.
Instead, 'morality' should be conveyed through reputation with both people and factions, like in Dragon Age where your party members judged your actions from their own points of view rather than the game dictating to you that a sacrifice for the greater good was in fact evil. Preferably morality would be more than just a bar, so some actions might be unforgivable, or other might make you a hero to a faction through sheer importance. I remember an immersion shattering moment in DA2 for example, where Anders would have willingly helped me capture escaped mages with nothing more than a grumble and gain in rivalry points. It would have made more sense to me for him to storm off and refuse to speak to me again, even over something as 'petty' as a sidequest.
No I don't think it's quite needed. I think there is still a way to have other different NPCs react to you instead of showing what karma you have. It works well in the Fallout series but not in the Elder Scrolls.
I don't think so. I don't want my game telling me how moral it thinks I'm being. I'd rather it be hinted at by subtle reactions from other characters. If something does have a good evil karma meter I'd rather it work in the background and not be visible and use it to run calculations.
No game has ever benefited from a karma system, and I'll be furious with bethesda if they include one. I don't like pandering to somebody elses ideals of good and evil. Let me decide for myself.
Although a reputation system like new vegas' wouldn't go amiss.
Although a reputation system like new vegas' wouldn't go amiss.
I remember Todd Howard talking about karma systems in (I believe) a GameInformer interview, he said that there would be no fame/infamy but that the game would keep track of such things would keep track of whether you had right or wronged a certain group or individual for later use. (This is what I remember so it may not be 100% fact.)
In regards to whether or not Skyrim should have a karma system I honestly believe the one I discussed above would be my ideal as you can't label everything in the categories of good & evil because, depending on who your dealing with could be either accepted as a common thing or vilified as a taboo act. To give an example, if you kill an animal that is sacred to a certain group in range of someone from that group they would obviously become less kind to you or may even act with aggression towards you, where as another group would just continue on without batting an eye.
In regards to whether or not Skyrim should have a karma system I honestly believe the one I discussed above would be my ideal as you can't label everything in the categories of good & evil because, depending on who your dealing with could be either accepted as a common thing or vilified as a taboo act. To give an example, if you kill an animal that is sacred to a certain group in range of someone from that group they would obviously become less kind to you or may even act with aggression towards you, where as another group would just continue on without batting an eye.
No. I don't need a nanny-bar telling me if I'm being naughty or nice. I know if my character is doing something good or evil, having a bar tell me so adds nothing and detracts significantly from immersion.
I think there should be the karma system of oblivion. Not one of these be completely shiny or diabolical ones that punishes you if you want to be like 'chaotic good' So you aren't punished for wanting to steal stuff one minute and help someone the next.
They would need to keep it grey for it to be interesting to me.
They would need to keep it grey for it to be interesting to me.
Please explain I don't understand how. If you didn't understand what I meant is that thinking that one action is better than another is the same as thinking that one ethnicity is better than another.AvauntVanguard said:
Nooooo. I hate karma systems telling you what is good or bad. I liked Oblivion's and Dragon Age's way of doing it where you can make decisions, but there is nothing telling you whether they were good or bad - right or wrong. It's much more fun when it's left to the player to decide whether their actions were good or bad, by weighing up the positives and negatives.