Should some spellings be removed?

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omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Kwil said:
omega 616 said:
See, this is a forum. In forums we put our idea's across and since I didn't want to put a post about grammar in with "how do you choose your badges", I thought I would start my own thread and get some thoughts on my own thoughts ... is that okay with you? I think it would be a nice subject to talk about and as far as I know hasn't been done before ... which in these times of the internet is somewhat of a rarity, I think you would agree.

I think I put in my OP that I don't want to change anything and I know 1 silly little thread wont so, where is the problem?

Now kindly pull the stick from your arse and be polite. I don't consider myself to be on Mr. Fry or Mr Wilde's level ... shit, they are smarter than most people on this planet and anybody who consider themselves smarter than them is either very stupid or very smart!
When you post stupid crap, don't be surprised if people call you stupid for doing so.
You say stupid crap, I say it's something to have a little think about ... called an opinion.

I don't see how that comment was helpful in putting your thoughts about the subject across, so why post it?
 

Buzz Killington_v1legacy

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Aug 8, 2009
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Are you still going on about this stupid "they're all pronounced the same" bullshit you were spouting back in April [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.276340.10760968]?

As long as we're recycling old posts, I'm going to dredge up what I said to you back then--that "we're", "were", "where", and "war" (which you also brought up at the time) are pronounced completely differently:

we're /wɪər/
were /wər/
where /wɛər/ (optionally aspirated: /ʰwɛər/)
war /wɔr/

(IPA key here [http://www.dicts.info/ipa.php].)
 

Woodsey

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Aug 9, 2009
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omega 616 said:
I would love to hear you pronounce them, I don't mean record yourself for this exact purpose but just in general life. Record yourself saying these words in normal conversations and listen to them back, I can pretty much guarantee that unless you are rubbing elbows with the queen of England that you will pronounce every were, there and which all the same way.
Where rhymes with air, were rhymes with slur, and we're rhymes with peer. If you are saying them all in the same way, then there are a lot of people who are going to be trying not to piss themselves laughing every time you open your mouth.



OT: They're written differently so we can understand what you're saying.

pffh said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Lukeje said:
Because removing such creates ambiguities in the language?
This.

If we just had 'were' as a cover all word for where, were, we're etc, it would be confusing as hell.
Would it? I doubt it. You can quite easily distinguish between them in spoken language from the context of which they are used so why not in text?

John and Jill where clothes. John and Jill where at home. Where are John and Jill. Where john and Jill.

Are you telling me these confuse you? That you can't tell what each where supposed to mean?

What about "There ball was there" is that also confusing even though the either there can only have one meaning based on it's context?
Not another one...

They're not pronounced the fucking same. You would at least have a case with where/wear, but not with words that are pronounced differently. Where and were? Where and we're? Seriously?
 

Dimitriov

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May 24, 2010
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Daystar Clarion said:
JesterRaiin said:
As a side note : tools we use change the way we're acting, sorry, we act, we think, we approach our reality. And language is, wel, it's just another tool. So, following all language rules to the letter we're becoming slaves of yet another ofour own inventions. Sadly. :|






(That doesn't have anything to do with my skill in English. I am aware that my usage of this language is closer to abattoir than to speech ;)
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Spoken language has always evolved over time, but for the most part, it's a streamlined process. Suddenly dropping the various spelling for different words is only going to confuse people.
I definitely agree with that and, more to the point, if language is changed it ought to be for the better, not the worse. I really hate it when those people too lazy to learn to write properly try to justify their position by saying that language evolves. Yes it does, but we generally have tried to improve language and make it clearer rather than turn it into a confusing mess.

Does the OP know that people used to just write whatever damn spelling they felt like? We stopped doing that because it hindered communication. Better language allows for better communication, and it even allows more complex thoughts.

Also, to address the other argument for simplifying the spelling of words, the various spellings of words tend to reflect their etymology, an understanding of which allows for more subtle and nuanced meanings. Removing those differences that allow us to understand the evolution of language would do a great disservice to both our ability to communicate and our basic understanding of language itself.
 

someonehairy-ish

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Spelling something differently does make a difference though. For example, you kept saying 'were' and throughout it I was thinking to myself; but there are no other words like 'were' to get confused with. It was only after seeing another post I realised that people might get it mixed up with 'we're' and 'where.'
The reason being that, to me, those words are all utterly different. They mean different things and they are pronounced differently so why should they have the same spelling?

Spelling is mutable, for example judgement and judgment are both ok. But there is no reason to start saying 'all words which are spelt vaguely similar to each other should just be spelt the same.'

As for speech, there is no 'proper' way of saying anything. Glottalising is not lazy (it takes more physical effort to do it) and saying things like 'we was walking' is also fine.

The reason being that in speech you can easily clarify your meaning if things become confused, whilst in written communication you generally cannot.


Another thought: Good language is able to communicate precise thoughts in a short space. That is all. This is why waffley writing that uses lots of words but never gets to the point is just as annoying as really simple writing that communicates no depth at all.
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Woodsey said:
omega 616 said:
I would love to hear you pronounce them, I don't mean record yourself for this exact purpose but just in general life. Record yourself saying these words in normal conversations and listen to them back, I can pretty much guarantee that unless you are rubbing elbows with the queen of England that you will pronounce every were, there and which all the same way.
Where rhymes with air, were rhymes with slur, and we're rhymes with peer. If you are saying them all in the same way, then there are a lot of people who are going to be trying not to piss themselves laughing every time you open your mouth.

OT: They're written differently so we can understand what you're saying.
Nope, I have moved around and no matter where I hear it, it always sounds the same. Unless I hear some American actor trying to do a British accent then I always hear "were" said the same, as you put it the one that rhymes with peer.

Although to me air and slur rhyme...
 

Jodah

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Sure lets make it easier rather than educating people. That's the problem with everything these days, rather than trying to fucking educate themselves people demand things are made easier. If people want to look like a moron on the internet let them, I just can't wait for them to try that shit on a job application or university report.
 

ultimateownage

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SckizoBoy said:
ultimateownage said:
Chinese has three different pronunciations, we have three different spellings.
Three?! Is that it?! Good grief, what kind of Chinese do you speak?! =P
Okay, 4 tones and neutral. It's been years since I learnt Chinese, I can't remember any of it. Whoops.
That just emphasises my point, though. :p
 

Woodsey

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Aug 9, 2009
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omega 616 said:
Woodsey said:
omega 616 said:
I would love to hear you pronounce them, I don't mean record yourself for this exact purpose but just in general life. Record yourself saying these words in normal conversations and listen to them back, I can pretty much guarantee that unless you are rubbing elbows with the queen of England that you will pronounce every were, there and which all the same way.
Where rhymes with air, were rhymes with slur, and we're rhymes with peer. If you are saying them all in the same way, then there are a lot of people who are going to be trying not to piss themselves laughing every time you open your mouth.

OT: They're written differently so we can understand what you're saying.
Nope, I have moved around and no matter where I hear it, it always sounds the same. Unless I hear some American actor trying to do a British accent then I always hear "were" said the same, as you put it the one that rhymes with peer.

Although to me air and slur rhyme...
Well then I recommend a speech coach.
 

Odbarc

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Jun 30, 2010
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I heard/read somewhere that the amount of words people know today is like half or a quarter of what people USED to know.

Could you imagine knowing 4X as many English words as you do now? I love my vernacular.
 

Versuvius

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omega 616 said:
Woodsey said:
omega 616 said:
I would love to hear you pronounce them, I don't mean record yourself for this exact purpose but just in general life. Record yourself saying these words in normal conversations and listen to them back, I can pretty much guarantee that unless you are rubbing elbows with the queen of England that you will pronounce every were, there and which all the same way.
Where rhymes with air, were rhymes with slur, and we're rhymes with peer. If you are saying them all in the same way, then there are a lot of people who are going to be trying not to piss themselves laughing every time you open your mouth.

OT: They're written differently so we can understand what you're saying.
Nope, I have moved around and no matter where I hear it, it always sounds the same. Unless I hear some American actor trying to do a British accent then I always hear "were" said the same, as you put it the one that rhymes with peer.

Although to me air and slur rhyme...
Then perhaps your own accent is interfering with speech but the rules for speech and written language are different. It is not the languages fault in this case, it is yours. Do something about it or deal with it, not make us all stoop down to the same level of grunting onto paper with ink.
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Woodsey said:
omega 616 said:
Woodsey said:
omega 616 said:
I would love to hear you pronounce them, I don't mean record yourself for this exact purpose but just in general life. Record yourself saying these words in normal conversations and listen to them back, I can pretty much guarantee that unless you are rubbing elbows with the queen of England that you will pronounce every were, there and which all the same way.
Where rhymes with air, were rhymes with slur, and we're rhymes with peer. If you are saying them all in the same way, then there are a lot of people who are going to be trying not to piss themselves laughing every time you open your mouth.

OT: They're written differently so we can understand what you're saying.
Nope, I have moved around and no matter where I hear it, it always sounds the same. Unless I hear some American actor trying to do a British accent then I always hear "were" said the same, as you put it the one that rhymes with peer.

Although to me air and slur rhyme...
Well then I recommend a speech coach.
It's the scouse accent, it's not great.

Jodah said:
Sure lets make it easier rather than educating people. That's the problem with everything these days, rather than trying to fucking educate themselves people demand things are made easier. If people want to look like a moron on the internet let them, I just can't wait for them to try that shit on a job application or university report.
Then lets let language stagnate and not change it out of fear that it may be "dumbing" it down. Well, it already has changed a lot so lets go back to it's original form?

Versuvius said:
omega 616 said:
Woodsey said:
omega 616 said:
I would love to hear you pronounce them, I don't mean record yourself for this exact purpose but just in general life. Record yourself saying these words in normal conversations and listen to them back, I can pretty much guarantee that unless you are rubbing elbows with the queen of England that you will pronounce every were, there and which all the same way.
Where rhymes with air, were rhymes with slur, and we're rhymes with peer. If you are saying them all in the same way, then there are a lot of people who are going to be trying not to piss themselves laughing every time you open your mouth.

OT: They're written differently so we can understand what you're saying.
Nope, I have moved around and no matter where I hear it, it always sounds the same. Unless I hear some American actor trying to do a British accent then I always hear "were" said the same, as you put it the one that rhymes with peer.

Although to me air and slur rhyme...
Then perhaps your own accent is interfering with speech but the rules for speech and written language are different. It is not the languages fault in this case, it is yours. Do something about it or deal with it, not make us all stoop down to the same level of grunting onto paper with ink.
Go and read the other 5 or 6 posts that I have written that say that it is just a topic to discuss, something to think about. nothing more.

Running out of ways to make this more clear ...
 

Joos

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Dec 19, 2007
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No. Evolution is good, devolution is bad.

I wouldn't mind if someone remove Tori Spelling, but that's it pretty much it.
 

SckizoBoy

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A Hermit's Cave
ultimateownage said:
Okay, 4 tones and neutral. It's been years since I learnt Chinese, I can't remember any of it. Whoops.
That just emphasises my point, though. :p
Heh... no sweat, I was going to make a jibe at even that! I'm a Cantonese speaker, so we've got eight intonations... -_-
 

Woodsey

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omega 616 said:
Jodah said:
Sure lets make it easier rather than educating people. That's the problem with everything these days, rather than trying to fucking educate themselves people demand things are made easier. If people want to look like a moron on the internet let them, I just can't wait for them to try that shit on a job application or university report.
Then lets let language stagnate and not change it out of fear that it may be "dumbing" it down. Well, it already has changed a lot so lets go back to it's original form?
As someone else has already pointed out, language evolves on its own, it doesn't need an active cull to take place that's just going to leave people confused.
 

Versuvius

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The english language evolves over time, slowly as what is required or needed of it changes, not by some lazy fucks attempts to make everyone WRITE like they do. Accents are accounted for, even generates their OWN written words and variations on, which by all means, write and spell how the fuck you want but do not go through the fupping dictionary and wipe your arse with it because...well, you feel that your own terrible accent homogenises certain groups of words and everyone should do the same.
 

Drops a Sweet Katana

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Daystar Clarion said:
Lukeje said:
Because removing such creates ambiguities in the language?
This.

If we just had 'were' as a cover all word for where, were, we're etc, it would be confusing as hell.
Allow me to illustrate.
Spelled correctly:
"We're where we were."

Now with 'were' pulling double duty:
"Were were we were."
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Versuvius said:
The english language evolves over time, slowly as what is required or needed of it changes, not by some lazy fucks attempts to make everyone WRITE like they do. Accents are accounted for, even generates their OWN written words and variations on, which by all means, write and spell how the fuck you want but do not go through the fupping dictionary and wipe your arse with it because...well, you feel that your own terrible accent homogenises certain groups of words and everyone should do the same.
Who knew so many people would get so pissed about words, as Peter Kay would say "it's like I came into your house on Christmas and pissed on your presents". Calm down, it's not like you wrote the dictionary or anything. I just wanted something new to be discussed, rather than the other 50 topic that fly through the off topic section ... no need to get personal.

Although since we are being picky and saying I am wiping my arse with the dictionary, it's spelt "homogenizes".
 

Versuvius

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I do get pissed about words, i am a grammar nazi when i'm not fucking up myself and i am a literary pedant. I dislike it when people want to do what CoD did to the industry do the language. Americanisms are bad enough

I have a CoD hate quota to fill. I will laugh at people having a dig at me about it. Fair warning
 

Skoosh

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The video isn't supporting your argument. He's talking against people that are adamant about a grammar that was abandoned before they were born, like ending a sentence on a preposition or the difference between "fewer" and "less." There's a huge difference between subtle changes in an ever-evolving language and completely destroying the most basic of words. Saying "there beign rediculous" is not what the video you linked was defending.

Getting too caught up in rules and such can be restrictive, but you should be able to tell the difference between words that have different spelling, pronunciations, and meanings (where, were, we're? REALLY?). Spelling shouldn't be a problem either, almost every browser and word processor corrects tell you when you're wrong. You have to go out of your way to misspell most words. It's ridiculous.