Should the atomic bombs been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

[frank220]

I think it saved lives because the Japanese were willing to launch a full scale invasions, as were the US. It basically reverted the Japanese from headstrong and cocky to submissive and cautious.

 

[Aardvark Soup]

I never understood why they didn't just throw an atomic bomb on a largely unhabited area in Japan as a warning. If this would have caused the Japanese to capitulate millions of deaths would have been prevented...

 

[oralloy]

Absolutely not...I think we could have afforded a few more years of war...

You are mistaken. We couldn't have. We were suffering from war fatigue, and so was Europe for that matter.

That said, the war wouldn't have continued for a few more years. We would have invaded Japan by the end of 1945, at a massive cost to both American and Japanese lives.

ANYTHING but what we did...innocents will die in a war, but to target the innocents.

We didn't target innocents. The A-bombs were aimed at military targets.

And far more innocents would have died had the war continued even a few months longer than were killed by the A-bombs.

40's America was no better than modern terrorist...

Nope. Modern terrorists target civilians. That is something America hasn't done in the past hundred years.

Ok. I'm going to look something up...The Hiroshima Bomb
Size: length - 3 meters, diameter - 0.7 meters.
Weight: 4 tons.
Nuclear material: Uranium 235.
Energy released: equivalent to 12.5 kilotons of TNT.
Code name: "Little Boy".

Initial Explosive Conditions
Maximum temperature at burst point: several million degrees centigrade. A fireball of 15-meters radius formed in 0.1 millisecond, with a temperature of 300,000 degrees centigrade, and expanded to its huge maximum size in one second. The top of the atomic cloud reached an altitude of 17,000 meters.

Black Rain
Radioactive debris was deposited by "black rain" that fell heavily for over an hour over a wide area.

The black rain was only mildly radioactive. The radioactivity from the rain wasn't strong enough to be a serious problem.

Demaging Effects of the Atomic Bomb
Thermal Hear. Intense thermal heat emitted by the fireball caused severe burns and loss of eyesight. Thermal burns of bare skin occurred as far as 3.5 kilometers from ground zero (directly below the burst point). Most people exposed to thermal rays within 1-kilometer radius of ground zero died. Tile and glass melted; all combustible materials were consumed.
Blast. An atomic explosion causes an enormous shock wave followed instanteneously by a rapid expansion of air called the blast; these represent roughtly half the explosion's released energy. Maximum wind pressure of the blast: 35 tons per square meter. Maximum wind velocity: 440 meters per second. Wooden houses within 2.3 kilometers of ground zero collapsed. Concrete buildings near ground zero (thus hit by the blast from above) had ceilings crushed and windows and doors blown off. Many people were trapped under fallen strunctures and burned to death.
Radiation. People exposure within 500 meters of ground zero was fatal. People exposed at distances of 3 to 5 kilometers later showed symptoms of aftereffects, including radiation-induced cancers.

Bodily Injuries
Acute symptoms. Symptoms appearing in the first four months were called acute. Besides burns and wounds, they included: general malaise, fatigue, headaches, loss of appetite, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, fever, abnormally low white blood cell count, bloody discharge, anemia, loss of hair.
Aftereffects. Prolonged injuries were associated with aftereffects. The most serious in this category were: keloids (massive scar tissue on burned areas), cataracts, leukemia and other cancers.

Atomic Demographics
Population. The estimated pre-bomb population was 300,000 to 400,000. Because official documents were burned, the exact population is uncertain.
Deaths. With an uncertain population figure, the death toll could only be estimated. According to data submitted to the United Nations by Hiroshima City in 1976, the death count reached 140,000 (plus or minus 10,000) by the end of December, 1945.
Health Card Holders. Persons qualifying for treatment under the A-bomb Victims Medical Care law of 1957 received Health Cards; holders as of March 31, 1990, numbered 352,550.
Nagasaki. The atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki exploded at 11:02 A.M. on August 9. Using plutonium with an explosive power of 20 kilotons of TNT-equivalent, it left an estimated 70,000 dead by the end of 1945, although both population and the deaths are uncertain.


it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

Pointing out the truth may well be patriotic, but the truth doesn't really count as BS.

 

[oralloy]

i see it as being necessary and un neccasry at the same time. It was unneccesary because we didn;t know what would happen or how devestatin it would be. but at the same time it was necessary because it made everyone afraid of being hit by one which led to the end of the war. And stopped a full scale conflict between the US and Russia

We did know what would happen and how devastating it would be. The Trinity test pretty much removed all doubt about how powerful the A-bombs were.

----------

Yeah ofc 80000 civilian lifes is nothing, lets drop some more... I still find it ironic that the US invaded iraq because they supposedly had weapons of mass destruction, and worry about other countries getting ´nukes when they're the country with most nukes and the only country to ever use them.

Bombs that kills civilians are evil and only evil people would ever use them.

There is no such thing as a weapon which doesn't kill civilians.

----------

I never understood why they didn't just throw an atomic bomb on a largely unhabited area in Japan as a warning. If this would have caused the Japanese to capitulate millions of deaths would have been prevented...

Since they didn't surrender after Hiroshima, I don't see how they might have surrendered from a non-lethal demonstration.

I also don't see where you are getting the figure "millions" from. At the worst, the two A-bombs together killed about 200,000 people.

 

[oralloy]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

Exactly. And the losses you state are the minimums expected on both sides. Some form of overwhelming shock was needed. Remember that the soldiers were fighting for their living god, the Japaneese would have shown considerable determination in defenese of their homeland, it would have been bloody indeed. In the end, lives were saved by dropping the bomb. People also need to understand that they didn't understand the radiation side, or even the heat wave. They thought of this as a really really big bomb, not as something unique and special beyond its size.

They understood the dangers of radiation. Radiation was discovered in the late 1800s, and people were receiving injuries from it throughout the first decades of the 20th century. By 1927, enough data was available for Hermann Joseph Muller to present a paper on the hazards of radiation, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1946. By the time WWII rolled around several prominent people, most notably Marie Curie, had died from radiation injuries.

I'm not sure what they wouldn't have understood about the heat, especially after the Trinity test.

 

[oralloy]

On July 27, 1945, the Allied powers requested Japan in the Potsdam Declaration to surrender unconditionally, or destruction would continue. However, the military did not consider surrendering under such terms, partially even after US military forces dropped two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6 and 9, and the Soviet Union entered the war against Japan on August 8.
On August 14, however, Emperor Showa finally decided to surrender unconditionally.

A pretty much straightforward question, I would like to view every ones opinions on the matter. Think not completely direct and also think about the effect that it has on the survivors children, if they would have surrendered.

It was a cowardly thing to do, they should have fought them on the battlefront and leave the civilians alone.

The A-bombs were aimed at military targets. And had the war dragged on into an invasion, far more civilians would have died.

They were intended for destroying entire cities, to demonstrate american military might. You can't level the city and claim it was aimed at military targets. Today's equivalent would be leveling the whole Baghdad to get rid of Saddam's military. Now, that didn't happen, did it? There were specific military targets that were destroyed. The same thing could've been done with Japan too.

We didn't have today's precision conventional weapons back then.

But even if we could have achieved the same destruction with conventional weapons back then, that wouldn't change the fact that the A-bombs were being aimed at targets with military value.

 

[paladinkratos]

i see it as being necessary and un neccasry at the same time. It was unneccesary because we didn;t know what would happen or how devestatin it would be. but at the same time it was necessary because it made everyone afraid of being hit by one which led to the end of the war. And stopped a full scale conflict between the US and Russia

We did know what would happen and how devastating it would be. The Trinity test pretty much removed all doubt about how powerful the A-bombs were.

----------

Yeah ofc 80000 civilian lifes is nothing, lets drop some more... I still find it ironic that the US invaded iraq because they supposedly had weapons of mass destruction, and worry about other countries getting ´nukes when they're the country with most nukes and the only country to ever use them.

Bombs that kills civilians are evil and only evil people would ever use them.

There is no such thing as a weapon which doesn't kill civilians.

Yes but if we didn't launch the bomb first before Russia did their might have been a nuclear holocaust between the US and Russia because they wouldn't know what it would have done to a populated area.Like a city. But at hiroshima they learned that there is no way to forget. because peoples outlines are still burned into the ciy. Both US and Russia learned that they were to powerful to be used
----------

I never understood why they didn't just throw an atomic bomb on a largely unhabited area in Japan as a warning. If this would have caused the Japanese to capitulate millions of deaths would have been prevented...

Since they didn't surrender after Hiroshima, I don't see how they might have surrendered from a non-lethal demonstration.

I also don't see where you are getting the figure "millions" from. At the worst, the two A-bombs together killed about 200,000 people.

 

[teisjm]

Yeah ofc 80000 civilian lifes is nothing, lets drop some more... I still find it ironic that the US invaded iraq because they supposedly had weapons of mass destruction, and worry about other countries getting ´nukes when they're the country with most nukes and the only country to ever use them.

Bombs that kills civilians are evil and only evil people would ever use them.

There is no such thing as a weapon which doesn't kill civilians.

True, but if you drop the nuke you know thousinds and thousinds of civilians will die, if a trained soldier shoots a gun he hopefully hit what he's aiming for, which should be an enemy combatant.

Weapons of mass destruction is for psychoes who doesn't give a shit about civilian lifes

 

[samsprinkle]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

 

[Avatar Roku]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

3 things. First, I figured I'd be upfront about where I got my info, rather than giving random stats without citing my source. Second, I won't try to say Wikipedia is always accurate, but on such an important article, it's likely that a there would be a good deal more oversight than other articles. Third, Second source [http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-atomic-bombs-saved-35-million-lives/]. Keep in mind, it's a bit biased, so take the numbers with a bit of salt.

 

[samsprinkle]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

3 things. First, I figured I'd be upfront about where I got my info, rather than giving random stats without citing my source. Second, I won't try to say Wikipedia is always accurate, but on such an important article, it's likely that a there would be a good deal more oversight than other articles. Third, Second source [http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-atomic-bombs-saved-35-million-lives/]. Keep in mind, it's a bit biased, so take the numbers with a bit of salt.

Fair enough. I've been quite rude. We are both Gone Gonzos. We shouldn't be having this petty arguement. And I am mostly to blame. I apologize.

 

[Avatar Roku]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

3 things. First, I figured I'd be upfront about where I got my info, rather than giving random stats without citing my source. Second, I won't try to say Wikipedia is always accurate, but on such an important article, it's likely that a there would be a good deal more oversight than other articles. Third, Second source [http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-atomic-bombs-saved-35-million-lives/]. Keep in mind, it's a bit biased, so take the numbers with a bit of salt.

Fair enough. I've been quite rude. We are both Gone Gonzos. We shouldn't be having this petty arguement. And I am mostly to blame. I apologize.

We've both been rude. Don't worry about it.

 

[samsprinkle]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

3 things. First, I figured I'd be upfront about where I got my info, rather than giving random stats without citing my source. Second, I won't try to say Wikipedia is always accurate, but on such an important article, it's likely that a there would be a good deal more oversight than other articles. Third, Second source [http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-atomic-bombs-saved-35-million-lives/]. Keep in mind, it's a bit biased, so take the numbers with a bit of salt.

Fair enough. I've been quite rude. We are both Gone Gonzos. We shouldn't be having this petty arguement. And I am mostly to blame. I apologize.

We've both been rude. Don't worry about it.

Cool. I'm glad we can move on. How's the weather in

 

[Avatar Roku]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

3 things. First, I figured I'd be upfront about where I got my info, rather than giving random stats without citing my source. Second, I won't try to say Wikipedia is always accurate, but on such an important article, it's likely that a there would be a good deal more oversight than other articles. Third, Second source [http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-atomic-bombs-saved-35-million-lives/]. Keep in mind, it's a bit biased, so take the numbers with a bit of salt.

Fair enough. I've been quite rude. We are both Gone Gonzos. We shouldn't be having this petty arguement. And I am mostly to blame. I apologize.

We've both been rude. Don't worry about it.

Cool. I'm glad we can move on. How's the weather in

Sunny and warm, you?

 

[samsprinkle]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

3 things. First, I figured I'd be upfront about where I got my info, rather than giving random stats without citing my source. Second, I won't try to say Wikipedia is always accurate, but on such an important article, it's likely that a there would be a good deal more oversight than other articles. Third, Second source [http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-atomic-bombs-saved-35-million-lives/]. Keep in mind, it's a bit biased, so take the numbers with a bit of salt.

Fair enough. I've been quite rude. We are both Gone Gonzos. We shouldn't be having this petty arguement. And I am mostly to blame. I apologize.

We've both been rude. Don't worry about it.

Cool. I'm glad we can move on. How's the weather in

Sunny and warm, you?

Cold, cloudy, and damp...just the way i like it...cough

 

[Avatar Roku]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

3 things. First, I figured I'd be upfront about where I got my info, rather than giving random stats without citing my source. Second, I won't try to say Wikipedia is always accurate, but on such an important article, it's likely that a there would be a good deal more oversight than other articles. Third, Second source [http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-atomic-bombs-saved-35-million-lives/]. Keep in mind, it's a bit biased, so take the numbers with a bit of salt.

Fair enough. I've been quite rude. We are both Gone Gonzos. We shouldn't be having this petty arguement. And I am mostly to blame. I apologize.

We've both been rude. Don't worry about it.

Cool. I'm glad we can move on. How's the weather in

Sunny and warm, you?

Cold, cloudy, and damp...just the way i like it...cough

Haha, and who says New Jersey is a bad place to live?

 

[samsprinkle]

it doesn't matter what we shot it at...we knew damned well that it would kill countless civilians...so don't come shouting thta patriotic bullshit at me.

I didn't want to get involved, but here it goes. Do you know what would have happened if we didn't drop the bomb? We would have had to invade Kyushi (small island, similar to Iwo Jima and Okinawa), and then Honshu (mainland Japan). Just for Kyushi, it was estimated that there would have been around 70,000 Americans killed, with Japanese losses being much, much higher. The invasion of Honshu would have been even higher for both sides. Also, the firebombing of Tokyo killed between 75,000 and 200,000 people (all of this according to various wikipedia articles). That's nearly as many as from Little Boy, and that would have been happening all over Honshu. It seems cruel, but we probably avoided many more deaths by dropping the bombs.

If you're going to try to make me change my mind and take you seriously...please for the love of all that is holy don't quote wikipedia...ever...

3 things. First, I figured I'd be upfront about where I got my info, rather than giving random stats without citing my source. Second, I won't try to say Wikipedia is always accurate, but on such an important article, it's likely that a there would be a good deal more oversight than other articles. Third, Second source [http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-atomic-bombs-saved-35-million-lives/]. Keep in mind, it's a bit biased, so take the numbers with a bit of salt.

Fair enough. I've been quite rude. We are both Gone Gonzos. We shouldn't be having this petty arguement. And I am mostly to blame. I apologize.

We've both been rude. Don't worry about it.

Cool. I'm glad we can move on. How's the weather in

Sunny and warm, you?

Cold, cloudy, and damp...just the way i like it...cough

Haha, and who says New Jersey is a bad place to live?

New Jersey? i live in missouri! lol

 

[Mr Grey]

earlier that same year the japanese offered to surrender on one condition - that the emperor would not be tried for war crimes. the americans refused, stating that they would only accept unconditional surrender from the japanese. the war with japan continued until the bombs were dropped, after which the japanese surrendered unconditionally.

the emperor of japan was never tried for war crimes.


if the allies had accepted the japanese terms of surrender, the net result would have been the same but without the loss of countless innocent lives.


so no, the bombs should never have been dropped.

Your calendar is miscalibrated.

Japan asked to surrender "with a guarantee for the Emperor" on August 10.

The A-bombs were dropped August 6 and August 9.

It is true that we insisted on unconditional surrender, and on August 14 Japan gave in, but no A-bombs were dropped in the period between when Japan asked to surrender "with a guarantee for the Emperor" and when they agreed to surrender unconditionally.

That said, it was utterly unacceptable to let Japan surrender with such a guarantee. Had Japan insisted on such a conditional surrender, we would have nuked them over it. (In fact, we were a week away from nuking Tokyo when they surrendered unconditionally.)

ah my bad

it was a few years ago that i wrote a term paper on the subject, looks like i misremembered the dates.

thanks for correcting my mistake =)