Should you feel guilty for eating meat?

[zxvcasdfqwerzxcv]

The choice whether or not to eat meat is a philosophical and moral one but I don't think either side is wrong or should be discriminated against.

However there are some juvenile and poorly articulated arguments in this thread. "It's natural" does not amount to anything - everything that occurs can be considered natural - i.e. part of nature.
If we exclude technology from the natural world (going back to the way mesolithic man would have lived; pre-farming) then the way we consume meat is not natural - farming, breeding of livestock and mechanized slaughter are innovations that are unnatural and expressions of the intelligence of mankind.

I personally am a omnivore and I have no moral ambiguity about that. I feel meat is a normal part of our diet, in moderation. However I think that with the great intellect we have (granted to us by our omnivore diet) it would be a great injustice not to reflect upon our nature.

For example, many have made the argument that we are "top of the food chain", an "apex predator" and "damn, meat is just tasty so I eat it". While I agree with all these, we have one thing that other apex predators do not have - an intellect capable of introspection, reflection and ethical thinking. Using our great minds I believe we should examine the way we consume meat, so that it is ethical, sustainable and above all - in moderation. I think the Western world has too large a demand for meat (an unnecessary demand) that leaves the production of meat in an unethical state.

Furthermore, we should examine how we think about other living things. The attitudes in this thread are disappointing, though not surprising. I believe that life is the most amazing thing in the universe and I value it tremendously. I am not opposed to killing for necessity, and I give thanks for the life of animals and plants I eat (not to a deity, but just in general). I think necessity is important. I would not squash a spider because I can, only if I needed to (like it was poisonous and would kill me). Likewise we should only slaughter and eat what we need, but the reality is a world of overconsumption.

Or maybe I'm wrong and I've just watched to much David Attenborough

 

[rokkolpo]

You shouldn't feel bad for liking meat.
It's our evolution that made us like that.

And if you were to feel bad, only eat animals that had a ''good life'' if that makes you feel better. Even though I think many animals do not suffer that much since in Europe we have pretty strong regulations.

EDIT: Also, does anyone know since when they changed the layout of the posting section?
I am rather confuzzled.

 

[wintercoat]

My basic thought is that if some wild animal is willing eat me to live, then I am willing as well. If I died and my family had to eat me to survive, then so be it. Do what you can to live another day... within reason of course.

Those damn chickens and their vicious hunting parties! Believe you me, if we weren't eating them they'd be all over us.

You laugh, but the reality is, chickens can be vicious little bastards, and if given the chance would indeed eat a human.

 

[Blunderboy]

No, I don't feel guilty. As a species we have evolved to be omnivorous. Who am I to dictate to nature?

'It's natural therefore it's right' is the worst fucking argument I've ever heard, but every damn person uses it when this topic comes up, I swear. Everything is natural. Your every action is by definition 'natural' because you did it, according to your nature and to the natural laws of the universe. So saying something is natural as a way of proving it is moral is basically saying that everything that has ever happened in the universe has been morally acceptable.

Come up with a better argument.

First off, relax a little bit.
Secondly I don't feel guilty for eating meat for that reason. If you happen to disagree with it that doesn't always mean the argument is invalid.
If you want an extended reason, I don't feel guilty because the meat was farmed, and if we didn't eat it, they wouldn't exist in the first place.

I still don't see why I need to justify it. Someone asked my opinion, and I gave it. I'm not judging if they do decide to not eat meat but it's not something that bothers me in the slightest.

 

[1337mokro]

I feel as guilty as a lion whenever it rips the guts straight out of a fresh kill.

The answer obviously in no. Do I feel guilty for the current state of the Meat Industry? Quite guilty. It doesn't have to be like that and most of the suffering of animals can be removed from the process and still produce quality meat.

I am also a medical student and have a degree in medical sciences like our fellow higher up on the comments in page one. We do in fact need meat to lead a healthier life. Now do we need meat 5 times a day? No. Do we need meat once a week? Yes. Can we substitute that with something else like fish or artificially altered plants. Yes. So can we still justify the killing of a chicken to make drumsticks when we can replace it with a lower lifeform that we think feels nothing? Yes we can.

It tastes good. It's a quick and easy way of reaching your quotas for protein, iron, several vitamins we need and of course it's just damned tasty. I will make a promise though. If every single carnivore and omnivore on earth stops eating meat and switches to an all plant diet. I will to.

Until that time I will instead continue eating this delicious Tuna sandwich guilt free because I know that if I didn't kill it. A shark would have and I'll be damned if I let another fish steal my fish sandwhich.

My basic thought is that if some wild animal is willing eat me to live, then I am willing as well. If I died and my family had to eat me to survive, then so be it. Do what you can to live another day... within reason of course.

Those damn chickens and their vicious hunting parties! Believe you me, if we weren't eating them they'd be all over us.

He speaks the truth mate. Chickens eat ANYTHING, even other chickens. I saw em pecking a corpse once. It was not a pretty sight. Chickens, they are not just nice birds, they would eat you if they could kill you.

 

[1337mokro]

accidental double post.

 

[scw55]

Eating meat is never wrong.

How the animals are treated and what animals are processed for meat is the questions

I feel many extreme Vegetarians forget this.

I don't know what your definition of an "extreme vegetarian" is, but I think the problem is that more often than not, animals are treated quite poorly. When it comes to animal welfare, the american meat industry is a disaster area and there are little to no regulations.

This is nearly inevitable because it's impossible to grow more than 9 billion animals each year for slaughtering and also offering these animals decent living conditions. It's not profitable for the meat industry to do that when the demand for meat is so high. And in the western world, we eat a lot of meat. Way more than what was ever natural for our diet, and the meat industry must expand aggressively to supply that demand, which is problematic for animals and the environment.

So I can definitely understand why some people would go vegetarian for political reasons, to lower or compensate for the extreme meat production by simply not consuming any meat at all. Of course another solution would be if we all just started eating less meat and a more varied diet, but that's not likely to happen.

You state America. The problem is extremist (PETA for example) vegans/vegetarians that come from America blanket all the countries with the same brush. In Wales we treat our walking and breathing meat very well, because we come from a very long line of farmers who respect the animals that are kept for lively-hoods. Same for other countries that have a deep history in horticulture.

I understand why Americans for political reasons would want to not eat meat, but I would appreciate if the people like PETA wouldn't shove their unrelated to our countries' reasons down our throats from other places in the world. America isn't the only nation that uses the internet.

In Britain in addition to a lineage of farming and farm animal respect, we have the RSPCA and (RSPB) doing a lot of unhypocritical work to police animal treatment and foster in the mentality of everyone here a respect for animals. In so far we have idiots in London feeding Grey Squirrels or feeding Pigeons.

 

[nuba km]

I try not to eat anything too cute though.

Spoiler

The amount of times I have talked to a vegetarian and they have tried to make me feel bad by starting to mention cute animals suffering is ridicules, I always wonder if they wouldn't be vegetarians if all animals were ugly on a lovcraftian scale. In which case they would just proof they are easily emotionally manipulated.

OT: I don't think you should feel guilty, well as long as the animal you are eating isn't endangered and/or a important part of the eco-system. I don't even care if my animal is treated badly before I eat it, as long as it tastes good.

captcha: chicken salad

now I am hungry.

 

[Baron von Blitztank]

I'm not gonna say you should, but I sometimes feel bad thinking when I eat chicken, they're raised in pitch-black rooms, fed so much that they can't walk more than 3-4 steps, and live in misery until they die and in the morning some guy comes into the room and collects them onto a cart.
There's a restaurant near me that grows their own animals in a nice, green field with shade and grass. I like eating there, feels like the animals lived good.

It's the guilt that makes it taste all the better in my opinion.
Some sentient creature was mewling it's last knowing it was never going to see its beloved children and/or parents again. It was slowly trying to remember the warmth it felt while being embraced by its loved ones, a feeble attempt to escape from the situation it was forced into by the greed of humanity. Finally, with a tear in its eye, its throat was slit, its blood drenched into its skin and its life was tragically cut short. It's this moment of agonizing pain and grief that makes meat all the sweeter!

Spoiler: I also see this as kind of appropriate

Are you being funny, or are you just as edgy as edgy gets?
They don't eat all the animal's food, by the way. Those big, juicy tomatoes and gigantic cucumbers? Yeah, you won't be seeing that outside of farms.

What? You don't think that the taste of inhuman misery and sadness makes everything taste so much sweeter and succulent?
Each to their own I guess...

 

[dayjack01]

Depending on the animal animals eat other animals so hy cant we eat them its human nature

 

[nuba km]

So glad to be part of a race that determines their morals by how science books classify their species. How is saying you're an omnivore any sort of excuse? You don't die without meat, that's just the way your species evolved in an environment where non-meat sources of protein were not as available.

Also, saying you like meat too much is really not a reason for whether or not you should feel guilty about eating meat. It's immoral or it isn't, how much you enjoy something doesn't really change that. If you enjoy going on murderous rampages (not equating the two) no one's going to say that you shouldn't feel bad about it because you were having fun.

Those are two very good arguments and they are raised against what I feel are the weakest arguments for meat eating. Now here is the counter argument I raise against the vegitarians who bring those counter arguments up.

What will a cow do if I don't eat it, it will walk around and eat grass until it either dies slowly and painfully from natural causes or being eaten by a predator. What will a cow do if I do eat it, It will walk around and eat grass till it is killed very quickly and efficiently by a butcher and then eaten by a predator. Animals don't really have leisure activities because they are too busy running from predators and trying to find food. Any domestic animal we have created also could not survive in the wild and would be easy food for predators, resulting in a very short live.

Animals who are raised for food live a either similar, as good or better as they would in the wild. yea a cow could live up to 40 years but gets put to the slaughter at age 11, but they would have bloody good luck if they lived to 40 in the wild. So why is it worse for us to eat them then something else.

 

[PrinceFortinbras]

Those are two very good arguments and they are raised against what I feel are the weakest arguments for meat eating. Now here is the counter argument I raise against the vegitarians who bring those counter arguments up.

What will a cow do if I don't eat it, it will walk around and eat grass until it either dies slowly and painfully from natural causes or being eaten by a predator. What will a cow do if I do eat it, It will walk around and eat grass till it is killed very quickly and efficiently by a butcher and then eaten by a predator. Animals don't really have leisure activities because they are too busy running from predators and trying to find food. Any domestic animal we have created also could not survive in the wild and would be easy food for predators, resulting in a very short live.

Animals who are raised for food live a either similar, as good or better as they would in the wild. yea a cow could live up to 40 years but gets put to the slaughter at age 11, but they would have bloody good luck if they lived to 40 in the wild. So why is it worse for us to eat them then something else.

The cows that exist today are a product of human breeding and could not survive in the wild, that is true. However that does not justify treating them badly. The alternatives are not (1) Keep millions of cows under horrible condition, or( 2) Stop eating meat an release all the cows in to the wild. There is at least a third way. We could stop factory farming so many cows and rather keep them as domesticated animals in such a way that they have a quality of life. I.e. let them graze outside, have comfortable living arrangements, spend time with their fellow cows and offspring and so on an so forth. That would not in any way yield as much meat as industrial production and meat would be much more expensive, but that is the price of a moral diet.

And I also think you can argue that an animal is worse of in industrial production fascilities. Take chickenproduction as an example: They have almost no space, they see no daylight and alot of the time they spend killing each other over food. On top of that they are bred so that the protein bombs they eat make them grow so fast that their legs often times can't sustain their weight and breaks. There are of course animals that live better lifes then this, but as an average consumer it is hard to know which ones you buy.

 

[Ampersand]

Plants are also alive. Don't feel guilty. You are meant to eat animals.

I've got to ask, by whom do you think he's meant to?

Just the way the world is. Humans have the intellect to be the superior species, and therefore at the top of the food chain. Below us are animals. Animals give nutrition. We eat animals.

Just noticed the post above me. And it's true!

That's a fairly narrow minded view of the world. I know I'm capable of over powering most people I know because I'm in better physical shape, but I know better then to believe that gives me the right to beat them up and take there stuff.
In reality you don't feel you're able to eat animals because you think they're beneath you but rather because you're lucky enough to live in a society, the vast majority of which will not look down on you for it.
Just something to think about.

 

[Mr. F]

I was brought up as a vegetarian in India and then in my late twenties when i came to Europe i started to eat meat. Also in Europe it is easier to be a non-vegetarian as the vegetarian choices can be pretty boring. And I must admit that I like the taste of meat and seafood, etc.

But lately I have been questioning if I should feel guilty for eating meat, seafood (anything that has a life). Do you guys ever wonder about things like: balance of the eco system, food chain, humans are at the top of the food chain so its justified, etc? Do humans really need meat to survive or we just eat it for pleasure? I eat it for its taste and I know some meat/seafood are supposed to be really good for our health. Also primitive man/Neanderthals used to hunt for food...but i guess they used to hunt anything for survival. The modern man does not need to kill/hunt for survival as there is abundance of vegetables and fruits available to eat.

Anyway to cut the long story short, I'm very confused if eating meat/seafood is justified and that we shouldn't feel guilty for killing living things for our consumption. What do you guys think?

Your open and honest opinions on this subject are welcomed.

Meh. I am about to go Vegi (The moment I get to Uni, my parents are both very ill so trying to make them accommodate a vegi diet would be a bit cruel) but not for the usual ethical reasons.

Primarily, it is about money. Meat is expensive. Living without meat is cheaper then living with meat. Ergo, Vegi options are the more economical options and the ones I pursue.

But secondarily, and this is the bit that falls into your question, Yes, I do feel guilty when I eat meat. Nothing to do with the sancitity of animal life. I wear leather (Shoes, anyway) and stuff like that. With all that goes on in the world I find it hard to give a flying fuck about how well a chicken has been treated.

But I find the idea of eating meat makes me guilty. Because of the economic and societal effects of eating meat. The amount of grain it takes to feed a cow up to be slaughtered is phenomenal. With food shortages and whatnot, it is simply unethical to eat meat.

Like I said, not because I give a damn about the welfare of animals (I do, but that is not the main reason) but because I give a damn about the welfare of people. It all gets confused when you look into it too much, lots of soybeans are produced in 3rd world countries to provide food for vegans in rich 1st world countries (Yes, I know those terms are not PC, but bleh, I did geography back when they still were), promoting starvation within those countries.

Its like green fuels. Lots of them are far from "Ethical" as they are being planted instead of food crops, the farmers get rich, the locals starve.

In summary, Yes, you should feel guilty for eating meat. Not because of the sanctity of animal life. But because the human cost of eating meat is insane. Maybe in the future eating meat will be a-ok again, once we have furthered the creation of drought resistant crops (Read the latest new scientist, phenomenal stuff is going on such as drought resistant wheat that takes up 40% less water and has a 200% higher yield, yes I got those numbers right) but until everyone has access to a basic quantity of food, eating meat is wrong.

 

[nuba km]

Those are two very good arguments and they are raised against what I feel are the weakest arguments for meat eating. Now here is the counter argument I raise against the vegitarians who bring those counter arguments up.

What will a cow do if I don't eat it, it will walk around and eat grass until it either dies slowly and painfully from natural causes or being eaten by a predator. What will a cow do if I do eat it, It will walk around and eat grass till it is killed very quickly and efficiently by a butcher and then eaten by a predator. Animals don't really have leisure activities because they are too busy running from predators and trying to find food. Any domestic animal we have created also could not survive in the wild and would be easy food for predators, resulting in a very short live.

Animals who are raised for food live a either similar, as good or better as they would in the wild. yea a cow could live up to 40 years but gets put to the slaughter at age 11, but they would have bloody good luck if they lived to 40 in the wild. So why is it worse for us to eat them then something else.

The cows that exist today are a product of human breeding and could not survive in the wild, that is true. However that does not justify treating them badly. The alternatives are not (1) Keep millions of cows under horrible condition, or( 2) Stop eating meat an release all the cows in to the wild. There is at least a third way. We could stop factory farming so many cows and rather keep them as domesticated animals in such a way that they have a quality of life. I.e. let them graze outside, have comfortable living arrangements, spend time with their fellow cows and offspring and so on an so forth. That would not in any way yield as much meat as industrial production and meat would be much more expensive, but that is the price of a moral diet.

And I also think you can argue that an animal is worse of in industrial production fascilities. Take chickenproduction as an example: They have almost no space, they see no daylight and alot of the time they spend killing each other over food. On top of that they are bred so that the protein bombs they eat make them grow so fast that their legs often times can't sustain their weight and breaks. There are of course animals that live better lifes then this, but as an average consumer it is hard to know which ones you buy.

I don't think you read my post properly as the presumption is made that most of the meat eaten is form animals allowed to graze. As form so much media outcry factory farmed meat isn't sold in most shops, at least were I live (its like even though sweat shops exist most major cloths shops don't get cloths form them due to the chance of bad publicity). Also it is arguable whether it is better to be not allowed to move and force feed food is better or worse then having to worry every second of your live about being eaten alive.

 

[loa]

Why is the "animals eat animals it's nature" argument a thing at all?!
It only makes sense if you don't think about it at all.

Last time I checked, we're the only species that "produces" meat in an industrial fashion so comparing us to a pack of lions is ridiculous.
Lions are not farmers that breed their gnus and gazelles and have a complex set of infrastructure to send the meat to hundreds of other lions that don't need to hunt at all.

In other terms: You rolling your lazy ass to burger king to order a double whopper does not equal a pack of lions eating their prey in the savanna.

As far as I am concerned, as soon as it involves the term "nature", it's a non-argument and you should try to come up with something more substantial (see also "arguments" against gay marriage).

 

[TomWiley]

Eating meat is never wrong.

How the animals are treated and what animals are processed for meat is the questions

I feel many extreme Vegetarians forget this.

I don't know what your definition of an "extreme vegetarian" is, but I think the problem is that more often than not, animals are treated quite poorly. When it comes to animal welfare, the american meat industry is a disaster area and there are little to no regulations.

This is nearly inevitable because it's impossible to grow more than 9 billion animals each year for slaughtering and also offering these animals decent living conditions. It's not profitable for the meat industry to do that when the demand for meat is so high. And in the western world, we eat a lot of meat. Way more than what was ever natural for our diet, and the meat industry must expand aggressively to supply that demand, which is problematic for animals and the environment.

So I can definitely understand why some people would go vegetarian for political reasons, to lower or compensate for the extreme meat production by simply not consuming any meat at all. Of course another solution would be if we all just started eating less meat and a more varied diet, but that's not likely to happen.

I agree with you on this, if I ever became a vegetarian (which I somewhat doubt) this would be the reason. The biggest thing is people just need tone down their meat consumption. And really, there's nothing bad that comes of that, less disease and obesity would definitely be benefits. My hopes are on lab-grown meat reaching a level where it can be switched in with regular meat and no one noticing.

EDIT: I'm optimistic

Precisely. If everyone just ate less meat than we could grow animals with better living conditions, find ways to minimize the enormous impact the meat industry has on the environment and we would probably all be a lot healthier. But that's not gonna happen. Quite the opposite, the trend in the western world shows on increase in meat consumption as of late, and now that developing countries like China and India wants to eat meat as well, the meat production is going to have to be even higher.

Let's hope we find a way to mass produce in-vitro meat really soon.

 

[O maestre]

there are so many wrongs in this world, but meat eating is not one of them, yes an ethical treatment of our food might be preferable, but it is so far down my moral priorities that i am not even sure it is there. with all the suffering that humans go through, from starvation, violence and violations the pain of something destined to be consumed barely registers.

i still dont understand how there still exists starvation on this planet given the over abundance of food

 

[TomWiley]

Eating meat is never wrong.

How the animals are treated and what animals are processed for meat is the questions

I feel many extreme Vegetarians forget this.

I don't know what your definition of an "extreme vegetarian" is, but I think the problem is that more often than not, animals are treated quite poorly. When it comes to animal welfare, the american meat industry is a disaster area and there are little to no regulations.

This is nearly inevitable because it's impossible to grow more than 9 billion animals each year for slaughtering and also offering these animals decent living conditions. It's not profitable for the meat industry to do that when the demand for meat is so high. And in the western world, we eat a lot of meat. Way more than what was ever natural for our diet, and the meat industry must expand aggressively to supply that demand, which is problematic for animals and the environment.

So I can definitely understand why some people would go vegetarian for political reasons, to lower or compensate for the extreme meat production by simply not consuming any meat at all. Of course another solution would be if we all just started eating less meat and a more varied diet, but that's not likely to happen.

You state America. The problem is extremist (PETA for example) vegans/vegetarians that come from America blanket all the countries with the same brush. In Wales we treat our walking and breathing meat very well, because we come from a very long line of farmers who respect the animals that are kept for lively-hoods. Same for other countries that have a deep history in horticulture.

I understand why Americans for political reasons would want to not eat meat, but I would appreciate if the people like PETA wouldn't shove their unrelated to our countries' reasons down our throats from other places in the world. America isn't the only nation that uses the internet.

In Britain in addition to a lineage of farming and farm animal respect, we have the RSPCA and (RSPB) doing a lot of unhypocritical work to police animal treatment and foster in the mentality of everyone here a respect for animals. In so far we have idiots in London feeding Grey Squirrels or feeding Pigeons.

You do make a good point. I don't know much about the meat industry in Wales, but I do know that the meat industry in for the most part EU is at least slightly better than the one in America where finding meat that has been "ethically" produced is nearly impossible. There are a few regulations in EU (that calves are not to be left in manure for several days for example), and while these rules are easy for most major meat companies to bypass, they at least exist. In america, the meat industry is virtually unrestricted.

Of course the best thing will always be to buy meat from local, responsible private farms which are better both for the animals involved and the environment.


And yes, I think psuedo-benevolent, sensationalist media groups like PETA has definitely played a huge roll in swaying the public away from the issue of animal welfare.

 

[PrinceFortinbras]

I don't think you read my post properly as the presumption is made that most of the meat eaten is form animals allowed to graze. As form so much media outcry factory farmed meat isn't sold in most shops, at least were I live (its like even though sweat shops exist most major cloths shops don't get cloths form them due to the chance of bad publicity)

True, I didn't.

Am not sure, but I doubt, that most animals are allowed to graze however. At least here in Norway a vast majority of pigs eaten are kept indoors all their lives, and the same goes for chickens. I am not sure about the cows, but it would surprise me if they were treated differently.

I am also interested to here how you producers actually meet demand where you live if they don't produce industrially, and also how expensive your meat is as a result. Animals are factory farmed because it is a necessity to keep production high enough and prices low enough. And when you do that it's hard to have animal welfare at the same time.

Also it is arguable whether it is better to be not allowed to move and force feed food is better or worse then having to worry every second of your live about being eaten alive.

I agree, it is arguable. But as I said in the first post; there is a third way that prevents both.