Show, don't tell, Dragon Age 2.

[Trolldor]

Ok, so I have an advantage over consolers in the gameplay department because I played it on PC.
It just outright plays better mechanically because it has the auto-attack feature.

Where Dragon Age 2 suffers is nowhere in the gameplay department. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the base of Dragon Age 2.

Dragon Age 2 suffers from a lack of depth.
Dragon Age 2 tells.
Varric's interludes kept filling in gaps, but they're the wrong gaps to fill.
Don't tell me Hawke rose to prominence, show me Hawke did.
Don't tell me tensions rose, show me they did.

And the companions... my god. I just didn't give a shit. None of them were at all important because they lacked depth.
They were great characters, they each had distinct personalities and histories, but none of them were properly explored.
The real reason they lack depth is the dialogue wheel.
I might have had five responses to a companion's query in DA:O, where my response might produce approval, disproval, or nothing at all. I had to base my response according to either their character or my own. I needed to know and understand their personalities, and the dialogue lines were distinct.

In DA 2 I have a 'nice', 'snarky' or 'comedic' response. No points for guessing which one is the right response. The dialogue wheel is much easier to use than ME's, the conversation options are clear, but they're narrow.

DA2's biggest problem is that it lacks the depth that DA:O had. It's combat mechanics were fine, enjoyable in and of themselves, but I don't feel like I'll gain anything from playing through a third time.

DA:O, by comparison, was such a deep world that it was worth multiple playthroughs for each origin itself. Your gender and your backstory affected how the world responded to you as well as your relation to it - Arl Howe, for example, is very different when playing as a human noble than any of the other characters.

Hawke's world is stagnant. The choice/consequence simply doesn't seem to be there.
Like ME:2, you get mail most of the time. If that. Things that seem like they should be big just aren't in the long run.

For example:

Spoiler

surely losing both your mother and brother/sister should have an impact on Hawke. It doesn't. Hawke and the world is precisely the same whether Bethany joins the circle, the wardens or she dies. Sure the dialogue lines are different, but that's all the impact you'll see.

As far as I can see, Dragon Age 2 was dumbed down intellectually, not mechanically.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I actually like the companions. Other than that, I agree with you. I will go to the grave cursing the dialogue wheel.

 

[KwaggaDan]

I have to disagree. Lack of depth? For the first time the companions' side quests felt like I was actually learning more about them, instead of an obligatory XP grind...

And I felt the companions in DoA2 were better crafted than the DoAO one's. They felt more rounded, and I personally, love Varric.

Could it be that you are just stuck in the past, or expected DoA2 to be an expansion pack?

 

[KwaggaDan]

DA:O, by comparison, was such a deep world that it was worth multiple playthroughs for each origin itself. Your gender and your backstory affected how the world responded to you as well as your relation to it - Arl Howe, for example, is very different when playing as a human noble than any of the other characters.

So that was the first 15 minutes, and for the rest of the game everyone just called you Elf, Dwarf or Lady...

 

[The Wykydtron]

OP... I've had enough of your snide insinuations!


Seriously why all the Dragonage hate? it's a good game and the companions are as good as ever

[sub]Merrill FTW[/sub]

 

[Nova Helix]

And the companions... my god. I just didn't give a shit. None of them were at all important because they lacked depth.
They were great characters, they each had distinct personalities and histories, but none of them were properly explored.

I think you're forgetting that if you dig through the journal you can read a page ore two about what each companion did between Varrics story time. I think we all know that reading pages and pages is the best way to develop character in a video game. Development through gameplay is sooo last generation. Another companion issue is having to load just to see each one. I've played it twice now and each time I just picked 3 people that I would keep in my party and ignored the rest just so I wouldn't have to load new areas over and over.

About the conversation wheel: I really liked how the auto conversations change based on what you pick more often, but (and this is a huge but) I HATE how I never know what my person will say. I'll pick sarcastic -then my person makes a joke about how he is going to cut their heads off and I'm in combat.

 

[TonCobra]

I personally enjoyed DA2 more than DA:O, mainly because the story is more believable, in that you don't rise to a superpowered hero in month, instead it takes years, and i think that gives the game depth..

 

[Catchy Slogan]

I remember playing ME2 and thinking, " you know what would make dialogue better? If they had exactly what Shepard was about to say, like in DA:O." And then they went and did this.

They had an interesting thing going on with the Qunari, but they just dropped such an interesting plot line half-way through with such a crappy climax.

Don't get me wrong, I quite enjoyed playing DA2, but the overall air of laziness that hangs around it has left me dissapointed. I would have much rather waited another year and have a better game.

Either that or the Mass Effect crew have played a rather cruel joke on the Dragon Age crew when the asked them for tips.

EDIT: Though I have to agree, I still love the writing and haw Hawke seems to be automatically snarky after a while. That was a nice touch.

 

[voetballeeuw]

This has been the third Dragon Age criticism thread I've seen today. Would it be possible that everyone moves on and bashes a new game?

I enjoyed the characters. Varric was humorous, especially when partnered with comedic Hawke. I like that there are more conversations between characters. I liked how everything was set up. Short conversations happened more often with characters, instead of long speeches after major events. It made the game more natural. I'm not a big fan of the dialogue wheel. To each their own, though. Seriously, why was this thread necessary? You could have chosen from hundreds of other Dragon Age threads.

 

[Nova Helix]

Seriously why all the Dragonage hate? it's a good game and the companions are as good as ever

[sub]Merrill FTW[/sub]

I don't think it is hate but rather disappointment. At least with me it is.

Comparing DA2 to other RPGs it's great, but I hold Bioware to a higher standard. They made changes that are frustrating and cheapen the game (personal opinion). Compared to their other RPGs DA2 is a failure, as just a game it's not bad.

 

[Trolldor]

I reckon people should read the OP MOAR instead of accusing of hate.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

OP... I've had enough of your snide insinuations!


Seriously why all the Dragonage hate? it's a good game and the companions are as good as ever

[sub]Merrill FTW[/sub]

It is more about the game being a letdown. DA2, while being a good game, took a step back from Origins for a lot of people. Not really hate.
[sub]Merrill FTW, indeed.[/sub]

 

[Trolldor]

DA:O, by comparison, was such a deep world that it was worth multiple playthroughs for each origin itself. Your gender and your backstory affected how the world responded to you as well as your relation to it - Arl Howe, for example, is very different when playing as a human noble than any of the other characters.

So that was the first 15 minutes, and for the rest of the game everyone just called you Elf, Dwarf or Lady...

And opened up different dialogue options across side-quests, introduced new characters, added dimensions to aspects of the main quest.

 

[Zaik]

Different origins didn't really have nearly the effect you're suggesting. Yes, when your character was in "his element", there was a little different dialogue, and if you were a human noble you could end up king at the landsmeet, None of these actually changed anything in the game, which is specifically what you're accusing DA2 of.

I did have an issue with having to "polarize" the relationship with the companions or they would end up mostly forgotten in Act 3(if you didn't take Angst Elf out for a walk in Act 2 he was ignored the rest of the game outside of his gift in Act 3. Wtf is up with that?) Also it's incredibly difficult to make Varric a rival without entirely ignoring his quests.

Also they really should have done something with those large time gaps. It seems rather unusual that two or three years would fly by with no actual change in Hawke at all, whereas you suddenly "wake up" and go level up 12 times and make a ton of money in what seems to be a timeframe of maybe a month or three. It didn't have to be detailed, I would have been totally fine with the same approach System Shock used, where you walk down hallways at the beginning that determine what branch of the military you join, what kind of specialized training you get, and where your first job assignment was, with bonuses attached to each. Something that showed Hawke wasn't in stasis for three years.

 

[Hyper-space]

Seriously why all the Dragonage hate? it's a good game and the companions are as good as ever

[sub]Merrill FTW[/sub]

I don't think it is hate but rather disappointment. At least with me it is.

Comparing DA2 to other RPGs it's great, but I hold Bioware to a higher standard. They made changes that are frustrating and cheapen the game (personal opinion). Compared to their other RPGs DA2 is a failure, as just a game it's not bad.

Its not bad compared to some of the other games that Bioware made. Baldurs Gate 2? horrible interface, gameplay and a lot of features that did not contribute anything to the experience or immersion (basically a waste of my goddamn time), but great story and RPG elements. DA2 however succeeds in other departments, while lacking in others. Great combat, fresh story (my only gripe being Orsinos heel-turn into total desperation), great interface and streamlining. BUT, it failed in exploration and level-design. The reason why DA2 gets so much hate is because it marks a clear evolution from Bioware's older titles when it came to the interface and streamlining. DA:O was a call-back to BGII and older CRPG's in terms of interface, despite it being detrimental to the overall experience, this blast from the past gave it high-marks from the older crowd whose views of BGII is that of it being the apotheosis of RPG's.

Bioware are acknowledging that the menu-heavy and clunky interface of yore simply does not work, something that will no doubt piss off a lot of people.

 

[Trolldor]

Seriously why all the Dragonage hate? it's a good game and the companions are as good as ever

[sub]Merrill FTW[/sub]

I don't think it is hate but rather disappointment. At least with me it is.

Comparing DA2 to other RPGs it's great, but I hold Bioware to a higher standard. They made changes that are frustrating and cheapen the game (personal opinion). Compared to their other RPGs DA2 is a failure, as just a game it's not bad.

Its not bad compared to some of the other games that Bioware made. Baldurs Gate 2? horrible interface, gameplay and a lot of features that did not contribute anything to the experience or immersion (basically a waste of my goddamn time), but great story and RPG elements. DA2 however succeeds in other departments, while lacking in others. Great combat, fresh story (my only gripe being Orsinos heel-turn into total desperation), great interface and streamlining. BUT, it failed in exploration and level-design. The reason why DA2 gets so much hate is because it marks a clear evolution from Bioware's older titles when it came to the interface and streamlining. DA:O was a call-back to BGII and older CRPG's in terms of interface, despite it being detrimental to the overall experience, this blast from the past gave it high-marks from the older crowd whose views of BGII is that of it being the apotheosis of RPG's.

Bioware are acknowledging that the menu-heavy and clunky interface of yore simply does not work, something that will no doubt piss off a lot of people.

I never had any trouble with BGII's UI.
What precisely was wrong with it?

 

[Xaositect]

Lack auto-attack became a moot point when my dumbass character started swinging around like a Dragon Ball Z character on crack cocaine. Button mashing may be more tedious, but all I would end up doing is reaching the same point: watching the same shitty pre-teen animations those arseholes at Bioware created to be "edgy" and "cool".

 

[Hiphophippo]

I never had any trouble with BGII's UI.
What precisely was wrong with it?

Speaking for myself here, I dislike nearly everything about the Infinity engine. And I'm old enough to have enjoyed the game in it's prime,too. It just never clicked with me and it was always the engine's fault. In fact, I only just barely put up with it for Planescape.

Different strokes, I guess.

 

[Hyper-space]

Seriously why all the Dragonage hate? it's a good game and the companions are as good as ever

[sub]Merrill FTW[/sub]

I don't think it is hate but rather disappointment. At least with me it is.

Comparing DA2 to other RPGs it's great, but I hold Bioware to a higher standard. They made changes that are frustrating and cheapen the game (personal opinion). Compared to their other RPGs DA2 is a failure, as just a game it's not bad.

Its not bad compared to some of the other games that Bioware made. Baldurs Gate 2? horrible interface, gameplay and a lot of features that did not contribute anything to the experience or immersion (basically a waste of my goddamn time), but great story and RPG elements. DA2 however succeeds in other departments, while lacking in others. Great combat, fresh story (my only gripe being Orsinos heel-turn into total desperation), great interface and streamlining. BUT, it failed in exploration and level-design. The reason why DA2 gets so much hate is because it marks a clear evolution from Bioware's older titles when it came to the interface and streamlining. DA:O was a call-back to BGII and older CRPG's in terms of interface, despite it being detrimental to the overall experience, this blast from the past gave it high-marks from the older crowd whose views of BGII is that of it being the apotheosis of RPG's.

Bioware are acknowledging that the menu-heavy and clunky interface of yore simply does not work, something that will no doubt piss off a lot of people.

I never had any trouble with BGII's UI.
What precisely was wrong with it?

EVERYTHING.

For one, there are like 3 toolbars on the screen, each with a buttload of unintelligible icons with no pop-up (such as if you hover the mouse over it) or anything to tell you what it does. To access item information you first have to put it into your inventory (no space? better throw stuff out!) then right-click it, then scroll down on to see what the stats are. Being able to access item information right away would save me a lot of time spent diving through menus. Secondly, you cannot just click on the enemy/friendly NPC to attack/talk to, oh no, you have to click exactly on its circle (a disconnect between player interaction and the in-game environment which just buggs me to no end). Also, you are so far away from your character and the environment, which means in order to loot a small creature like say, an ifrit (or whatever those flying lightning chimps are named), it will take a careful and EXTREMELY steady hand to loot it (good luck if its stuck behind an wall.

Now, on to the priest scroll and mages scroll. What is the point of memorizing spells? now, before i go on any further i like to point out that a system in which you can only have so and so many spells could work, but in this its just fundamentally flawed. What is the penalty for stopping, going through all the menus, memorizing all the spells and then resting? what does all this menu-surfing add to the experience? its not like my character has to meditate and enter his own inner realm and rearrange his memories or anything that would enhance the experience. It doesn't do anything other than give you as much immersion as pressing a button could give you, what purpose does this system have other than make you jump through extra hoops? nothing thats what.

Basic damage indicators and information. As someone who has never managed to find a group of friends interested in DnD i am not that familiar with the ADnD ruleset, or how the dices (D10 or whatever) factor into how much damage i do, let alone what weight does to the character. Theres a lot of shit that is never explained (i have tried the tutorial, but the game keeps crashing at simple things like equipping items and such). Such as what does strength do exactly to make my warrior better, or how wisdom could affect my character, this is all something you have to explain for newcomers when making an RPG, you cannot expect EVERYONE to know the DnD ruleset.

These are just some of my complaints over the interface.

watching the same shitty pre-teen animations those arseholes at Bioware created to be "edgy" and "cool".

How can animations be "pre-teen"? how the fuck is Bioware trying to be "edgy" and "cool" by having more fast-paced and exaggerated combat-animations? in a world where warriors can knock ogres of their feet, how is someone lunging forward at super-human speed somehow too "unreal" for your taste?

Holy fuck, i think you are just throwing buzz-words around to make your argument sound more than just general shit-flinging.

 

[pliusmannn]

what i loved in DA2:
1. Awesome tutorial intergation, I just loved how Varric was lying, also *spoiler alert* that time in the brother's mansion, again lying, it was a great fun.
2. The story intergration into DA world, i just enjoyed it how it all connected into the world, how I was able to hear what is happening in my homeland, where at the same time DA origins was taking part.
3. *spoiler alert* Leliana was unexpected, also the dialogue between was somehow making me want to know what will be next.
4. Mage, simply, mage. Damnit i was developing a grumpy mage who was very egoistic and was every time sure that there is no one to stand in his way. Also if you listen to dialogues between companions in mid game it remembered that i am grumpy one and when my companions started talking, my mage just told them "shut up already" i loved this moment.
5. Companions, i personally loved Merrill, but damn i felt like a pedophile choosing romance plot with her.
6. Talking Hawke
What i disliked:
1. Lack of interaction with companions, i was let down because of that in Awekening too.
2. No Morrigan. I had to start over and play Origins from beginning because i didn't had save file, and i killed Flemeth, and there was still her in DA2... then I remembered what Morrigan told me.
3. REPETITIVE MAPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DAMN IT YOU LAZY BASTARDS!!!!!!
4. Lack of armor and weapon choises, also the fact that you *spoiler alert* get the champion armor like 1 quest before end. Also all other mage armors suck big time.
5. Not as awesome as i thought when i saw the trailer...

P.S. sorry for bad english, not my native language