Show, don't tell, Dragon Age 2.

[tzimize]

Ok, so I have an advantage over consolers in the gameplay department because I played it on PC.
It just outright plays better mechanically because it has the auto-attack feature.

Where Dragon Age 2 suffers is nowhere in the gameplay department. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the base of Dragon Age 2.

Dragon Age 2 suffers from a lack of depth.
Dragon Age 2 tells.
Varric's interludes kept filling in gaps, but they're the wrong gaps to fill.
Don't tell me Hawke rose to prominence, show me Hawke did.
Don't tell me tensions rose, show me they did.

And the companions... my god. I just didn't give a shit. None of them were at all important because they lacked depth.
They were great characters, they each had distinct personalities and histories, but none of them were properly explored.
The real reason they lack depth is the dialogue wheel.
I might have had five responses to a companion's query in DA:O, where my response might produce approval, disproval, or nothing at all. I had to base my response according to either their character or my own. I needed to know and understand their personalities, and the dialogue lines were distinct.

In DA 2 I have a 'nice', 'snarky' or 'comedic' response. No points for guessing which one is the right response. The dialogue wheel is much easier to use than ME's, the conversation options are clear, but they're narrow.

DA2's biggest problem is that it lacks the depth that DA:O had. It's combat mechanics were fine, enjoyable in and of themselves, but I don't feel like I'll gain anything from playing through a third time.

DA:O, by comparison, was such a deep world that it was worth multiple playthroughs for each origin itself. Your gender and your backstory affected how the world responded to you as well as your relation to it - Arl Howe, for example, is very different when playing as a human noble than any of the other characters.

Hawke's world is stagnant. The choice/consequence simply doesn't seem to be there.
Like ME:2, you get mail most of the time. If that. Things that seem like they should be big just aren't in the long run.

For example:

Spoiler

surely losing both your mother and brother/sister should have an impact on Hawke. It doesn't. Hawke and the world is precisely the same whether Bethany joins the circle, the wardens or she dies. Sure the dialogue lines are different, but that's all the impact you'll see.

As far as I can see, Dragon Age 2 was dumbed down intellectually, not mechanically.

Couldnt have said it better myself. Shame on you Bioware, shame on you.

DA went from being one of the most interesting games I've played to a steaming pile of shit. It makes me depressed, the world and the series had such promise.

 

[StormShaun]

I loved DA 2 but Da Origins is better then DA 2 I felt more connected to the warden then hawke, but if they gave multiple voices we could choose from (Like Saints Row 2) , But I HATE with all my heart Fenris or whatever his name is, he cant be talked into helping me or my side.......and sigh it had to end in the worst way for him, But still I hope DA 3 will be more like DA: O but with DA 2 combat.....it was better I think but needs a dual weilding warrior class, seriously I loved doing that...

 

[Limie]

Dragon Age 2 tells.
Varric's interludes kept filling in gaps, but they're the wrong gaps to fill.
Don't tell me Hawke rose to prominence, show me Hawke did.
Don't tell me tensions rose, show me they did.

And the companions... my god. I just didn't give a shit. None of them were at all important because they lacked depth.
They were great characters, they each had distinct personalities and histories, but none of them were properly explored.

Thank you! Most of the characters annoyed me and Anders was too different from awakenings. The only one I liked was Varric. Someone mentioned above that they disliked having to sit through a load screen to see each character and I agree with them.

For example:

Spoiler

surely losing both your mother and brother/sister should have an impact on Hawke. It doesn't. Hawke and the world is precisely the same whether Bethany joins the circle, the wardens or she dies. Sure the dialogue lines are different, but that's all the impact you'll see.

My main problem with this

Spoiler

no matter what you do your brother/sister will always hate you for becoming a circle mage/templer/grey warden and both blame you for it and your mother's death, even though I don't see them running to save her. They will treat you like crap every time thereafter and then if you side against them at the end they will pull the "but i'm your sibling" act.

what i loved in DA2:
1. Awesome tutorial intergation, I just loved how Varric was lying, also *spoiler alert* that time in the brother's mansion, again lying, it was a great fun.

I really enjoyed this and wanted more. If he is telling a story then Varric should exaggerate sometimes. It broke up some of the tedious questing and I think a few tale tales would be enjoyable at times even if it's just the way he describes his comrades. I have to admit that the side quests were more enjoyable.

3. REPETITIVE MAPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DAMN IT YOU LAZY BASTARDS!!!!!!

I got three quaters of the way through the game and had massive deja vu and realised that this was the fourth time I had seen this map.


Overall I enjoyed it but there are a few plot points that I didn't understand especially towards the end.

Spoiler

I would have also liked to have seen the first enchanter and the knight commander a bit more before act 3.

I also felt more that origins took place over ten years (and not one) and that DA2 took place over a year (not ten). I could not understand the sense of time in DA2 as nothing seems to change especially during the 3 years later... bits.

 

[Archereus]

I have to disagree. Lack of depth? For the first time the companions' side quests felt like I was actually learning more about them, instead of an obligatory XP grind...

And I felt the companions in DoA2 were better crafted than the DoAO one's. They felt more rounded, and I personally, love Varric.

Could it be that you are just stuck in the past, or expected DoA2 to be an expansion pack?

I am with you sir, playing through DA1 then going to DA2 I believe DA2 was a much better improvement in just about all ways, the best made character in DA1 was Morrigan but the DA2 character all were very well done.

But I preferred the dialog wheel from DA2 better, it gives the illusion your still making decisions but it sometimes doesn't affect the story.

Dragon Age 2 FTW!

 

[MercurySteam]

Still had a great story and interesting characters so I'm happy.

I really enjoyed this and wanted more. If he is telling a story then Varric should exaggerate sometimes. It broke up some of the tedious questing and I think a few tale tales would be enjoyable at times even if it's just the way he describes his comrades. I have to admit that the side quests were more enjoyable.

Ah yes, the suped-up introduction and Varric's face-off against Bartrand's goons was one of the greatest highlights of the game. I think Bioware could've afforded to throw in third one of Varric's 'exaggerations' as they were some of the most enjoyable parts of the game.

 

[Lyndraco]

I concur with most on the companion issue. I never felt connected to them-sure I learned more about their backstory, but I was never able to really talk with any of them. As for Anders, (the romance that I pursued the first time) he went from "Oh your ok" to "let's move in together!" in the space of two conversations--what happened?! cuz I sure didn't talk to him. It was stuff like this that made me feel not connected to any of them. I really preferred DA:O for that, in that there were multiple conversation options to choose from.

I also dislike that I can't change my companions armor. They took out all the fun parts of the game being an RPG. :-(

 

[Trogdor1138]

ANOTHER DRAGON AGE TOPIC THIS IS NEW AND ORIGINAL!

I'm sorry, I'm just a little bit annoyed with the amount of threads I've seen lately, you'd think Escapist would need it's own damn Dragon Age board by now...

 

[StBishop]

what i loved in DA2:
1. Awesome tutorial intergation, I just loved how Varric was lying, also *spoiler alert* that time in the brother's mansion, again lying, it was a great fun.
2. The story intergration into DA world, i just enjoyed it how it all connected into the world, how I was able to hear what is happening in my homeland, where at the same time DA origins was taking part.
3. *spoiler alert* Leliana was unexpected, also the dialogue between was somehow making me want to know what will be next.
4. Mage, simply, mage. Damnit i was developing a grumpy mage who was very egoistic and was every time sure that there is no one to stand in his way. Also if you listen to dialogues between companions in mid game it remembered that i am grumpy one and when my companions started talking, my mage just told them "shut up already" i loved this moment.
5. Companions, i personally loved Merrill, but damn i felt like a pedophile choosing romance plot with her.
6. Talking Hawke
What i disliked:
1. Lack of interaction with companions, i was let down because of that in Awekening too.
2. No Morrigan. I had to start over and play Origins from beginning because i didn't had save file, and i killed Flemeth, and there was still her in DA2... then I remembered what Morrigan told me.
3. REPETITIVE MAPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DAMN IT YOU LAZY BASTARDS!!!!!!
4. Lack of armor and weapon choises, also the fact that you *spoiler alert* get the champion armor like 1 quest before end. Also all other mage armors suck big time.
5. Not as awesome as i thought when i saw the trailer...

P.S. sorry for bad english, not my native language

Just so you know The Escapist Forums have spoiler tags that look like

Spoiler: this

Yay you can hide your spoilers from people!

To make them you just type (spoiler) put your content here, then type (/spoiler)
to end it. Only difference is that you replace the round brackets or parenthesis () with square brackets []

If you want to have info in the spoiler tag before it's clicked like how mine says "This" you type

Spoiler

Yay for learning.

 

[pliusmannn]

I got three quaters of the way through the game and had massive deja vu and realised that this was the fourth time I had seen this map.

Oh god, when I half-finished the game I had massive deja-vu that i was playing this game before I was even trying to remember what game was that, although it maybe happened because I was playing it 15hours straight, finished the game without sleep in 22hours. Also when Hawke's mom died, the cutscene before and when she stands up stiched, I was trying to remember where did i saw that. Deja-vu all the way through gameplay.

To make them you just type (spoiler) put your content here, then type (/spoiler)
to end it. Only difference is that you replace the round brackets or parenthesis () with square brackets []

If you want to have info in the spoiler tag before it's clicked like how mine says "This" you type

Spoiler

Yay for learning.

Spoiler

thanks mate

Spoiler

never thought about that, i hope i didn't spoil the game for you

 

[StBishop]

Ok, so I have an advantage over consolers in the gameplay department because I played it on PC.
It just outright plays better mechanically because it has the auto-attack feature.

This is pure opinion. Mechanically the click to attack feature was only removed from PC due to accidentally clicking next to enemies lead to movement rather than attacking.

On the console, pressing a button to attack each time is, for me, more involving and therefore superior. However mechanically, there's little difference, and I'd prefer to have the option for auto attack.

Spoiler: things I am not arguing because I agree with them to a degree

Where Dragon Age 2 suffers is nowhere in the gameplay department. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the base of Dragon Age 2.

Dragon Age 2 suffers from a lack of depth.
Dragon Age 2 tells.
Varric's interludes kept filling in gaps, but they're the wrong gaps to fill.
Don't tell me Hawke rose to prominence, show me Hawke did.
Don't tell me tensions rose, show me they did.

And the companions... my god. I just didn't give a shit. None of them were at all important because they lacked depth.
They were great characters, they each had distinct personalities and histories, but none of them were properly explored.

I didn't feel this way at all. Yeah there were silly things, like Anders always saying "I can't go on like this" after his quest when

Spoiler

he almost kills a mage when Justice/Vengeance takes over

but in all the conversations at my house he was all like "I've never been so happy" and "Life's better than ever, I never knew I could be this close with someone".
This doesn't mean that he didn't matter.

The real reason they lack depth is the dialogue wheel.
I might have had five responses to a companion's query in DA:O, where my response might produce approval, disproval, or nothing at all. I had to base my response according to either their character or my own. I needed to know and understand their personalities, and the dialogue lines were distinct.

In DA 2 I have a 'nice', 'snarky' or 'comedic' response. No points for guessing which one is the right response. The dialogue wheel is much easier to use than ME's, the conversation options are clear, but they're narrow.

So you're complaining that to ensure that you either piss someone off of make them happy you need to understand them and how what you say will affect them?
This doesn't strike me as a lack of depth. Quite the opposite in fact.
I hear you with the dialogue wheel being unclear, and I found myself completely ignoring the little synopsis of what I'll be saying because it's usually no indication of what will be said. The symbol usually gave me a much better indication of what's going on.
The only exception was when the head popped up or the question mark, so I would know which party member was being deferred to and what the question would be about (not what the question would actually be, mind).

Spoiler: More that I don't necessarily disagree with.

DA2's biggest problem is that it lacks the depth that DA:O had. It's combat mechanics were fine, enjoyable in and of themselves, but I don't feel like I'll gain anything from playing through a third time.

DA:O, by comparison, was such a deep world that it was worth multiple playthroughs for each origin itself. Your gender and your backstory affected how the world responded to you as well as your relation to it - Arl Howe, for example, is very different when playing as a human noble than any of the other characters.

Hawke's world is stagnant. The choice/consequence simply doesn't seem to be there.
Like ME:2, you get mail most of the time. If that. Things that seem like they should be big just aren't in the long run.

For example:

Spoiler

surely losing both your mother and brother/sister should have an impact on Hawke. It doesn't. Hawke and the world is precisely the same whether Bethany joins the circle, the wardens or she dies. Sure the dialogue lines are different, but that's all the impact you'll see.

As far as I can see, Dragon Age 2 was dumbed down intellectually, not mechanically.

I will say though, some of this comes down to opinion, I wouldn't play through each origin more than once. Some maybe, but not all, I specifically dislike the mage story. It makes me not want to play through as a mage again.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Its not bad compared to some of the other games that Bioware made. Baldurs Gate 2? horrible interface, gameplay and a lot of features that did not contribute anything to the experience or immersion (basically a waste of my goddamn time), but great story and RPG elements. DA2 however succeeds in other departments, while lacking in others. Great combat, fresh story (my only gripe being Orsinos heel-turn into total desperation), great interface and streamlining. BUT, it failed in exploration and level-design. The reason why DA2 gets so much hate is because it marks a clear evolution from Bioware's older titles when it came to the interface and streamlining. DA:O was a call-back to BGII and older CRPG's in terms of interface, despite it being detrimental to the overall experience, this blast from the past gave it high-marks from the older crowd whose views of BGII is that of it being the apotheosis of RPG's.

What are you talking about? Thats the oposite of the BG 2 I know. The game didnt have a lot of RPG elements and the story was nothing special but the gameplay, the depth, the combat, and definitly the interface were beyond anything Bioware and most devlopers have yet to produce.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

EVERYTHING.

For one, there are like 3 toolbars on the screen, each with a buttload of unintelligible icons with no pop-up (such as if you hover the mouse over it) or anything to tell you what it does. To access item information you first have to put it into your inventory (no space? better throw stuff out!) then right-click it, then scroll down on to see what the stats are.

Now you are just trolling

real complicated

Being able to access item information right away would save me a lot of time spent diving through menus. Secondly, you cannot just click on the enemy/friendly NPC to attack/talk to, oh no, you have to click exactly on its circle (a disconnect between player interaction and the in-game environment which just buggs me to no end).

Wow funny troll too

Also, you are so far away from your character and the environment, which means in order to loot a small creature like say, an ifrit (or whatever those flying lightning chimps are named), it will take a careful and EXTREMELY steady hand to loot it (good luck if its stuck behind an wall.

Maybe you arent trolling. You come off as someone who dloaded the game on gog to see what it was cracked up to be, was slapped in the face with actual gameplay and depth and didnt recover.

Now, on to the priest scroll and mages scroll. What is the point of memorizing spells? now, before i go on any further i like to point out that a system in which you can only have so and so many spells could work, but in this its just fundamentally flawed. What is the penalty for stopping, going through all the menus, memorizing all the spells and then resting? what does all this menu-surfing add to the experience? its not like my character has to meditate and enter his own inner realm and rearrange his memories or anything that would enhance the experience. It doesn't do anything other than give you as much immersion as pressing a button could give you, what purpose does this system have other than make you jump through extra hoops? nothing thats what.

Thats a D&D thing. I kinda like it (beats MMO style mana systems) but I agree there should be a penalty of some sort for rest spamming.

Basic damage indicators and information. As someone who has never managed to find a group of friends interested in DnD i am not that familiar with the ADnD ruleset, or how the dices (D10 or whatever) factor into how much damage i do, let alone what weight does to the character. Theres a lot of shit that is never explained (i have tried the tutorial, but the game keeps crashing at simple things like equipping items and such). Such as what does strength do exactly to make my warrior better, or how wisdom could affect my character, this is all something you have to explain for newcomers when making an RPG, you cannot expect EVERYONE to know the DnD ruleset.

RTFM
BG 2 has a 260+ page one. Play BG 1 first. The interface is not hard to use and 2nd edition D&D is really not that technical. BG is built from a realtime strategy engine. It gives you a lot of options. If you dont know what they are RTFM. Buy the game on amazon. Dont just dload the demo.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

This is pure opinion. Mechanically the click to attack feature was only removed from PC due to accidentally clicking next to enemies lead to movement rather than attacking.

auto attack was supposed to be on consoles too and for good reason. This isnt an action game. As a strategy game DA 2 is mediocre, as an action game its terrible. So switching constantly and pressing a button with every attack and every character is a chore. It makes you want to play it as an action game and its a lousy action game.

 

[Slycne]

My main problem with this

Spoiler

no matter what you do your brother/sister will always hate you for becoming a circle mage/templer/grey warden and both blame you for it and your mother's death, even though I don't see them running to save her. They will treat you like crap every time thereafter and then if you side against them at the end they will pull the "but i'm your sibling" act.

That's not the experience I had at all, so clearly it's not as set in stone as you believe it to be.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

watching the same shitty pre-teen animations those arseholes at Bioware created to be "edgy" and "cool".

How can animations be "pre-teen"? how the fuck is Bioware trying to be "edgy" and "cool" by having more fast-paced and exaggerated combat-animations? in a world where warriors can knock ogres of their feet, how is someone lunging forward at super-human speed somehow too "unreal" for your taste?

Holy fuck, i think you are just throwing buzz-words around to make your argument sound more than just general shit-flinging.

The demo really failed to grab me, and this is one of the reasons why. I'll leave it to Xaositect to expound on his choice of words, but DA2 has a very different visual style than Origins. Some people are bound to like it and some are bound not to. Personally, I hate it, and everything like it. I just cannot stay interested in what's happening on the screen because the characters are so extremely stylized they defy imagination and look like idiots. It really has nothing to do with realism or fidelity to the game's universe. It's just a visual style that not everyone is going to like.

Actually, DA2 wasn't the worst example of this, but I'm just trying to get my point across.

 

[Limie]

That's not the experience I had at all, so clearly it's not as set in stone as you believe it to be.

Thank you. That's good to know, but I don't feel it is worth further play-throughs to net the same result.

 

[Shycte]

I liked the game, altough I agree that it didn't have as much deepth as Origins. I could play Origins just for the sake of creating diffrent new story arcs for new diffrent Wardens. Loghain always dies though. Always