Sick to Death of Colossal Terms of Services / Uses and EULAs

[Bostur]

I reckon these companies shouldn't be allowed to take payment until the customer has passed a short test to prove they have actually read the EULA.

If they did that, nobody would ever buy from them

Maybe that would force the companies to make EULAs that are easier to read ;-)

I sometimes wonder the same myself. Sometimes I've seen game companies excuse themselves in legal matters by saying "It's not us, it's the lawyers", as if lawyers were some kind of uncontrollable force of nature. If their lawyers are so incompetent maybe they could hire someone else? This is certainly a part of American culture that completely baffles me, but still affects my everyday life.

My opinion is that most of the language people use in daily speech is rife with ambiguity. Legal speak, is, simply and broadly, a method by which a desired level of precision in language is reached.

Maybe extending a sentence to 15 pages makes it clearer and more precise to you but not to me.

Most legal documents that I have had to understand were much easier to read than software EULAs. Renting an apartment, getting insurance, taking out a loan is much easier than buying a game. It kind of put things in perspective.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Lawyers and Bankers run the developed world, not ordinary people.
That's my (oversimplified) story, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

I used to read some, now I'm hardly even skimming through them. Point is, I can't play what I bought without agreeing anyway, so even if I don't agree, I have to say I do, or I just wasted my money. As Eddie Izzard said, they (EULAs) make liars out of all of us.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Lawyers and Bankers run the developed world, not ordinary people.
That's my (oversimplified) story, and I'm sticking to it.

Definitely seems like it here in the U.S. Le sigh...

I was going to make a similar thread today, which I still might, concerning the agreement of the new 360 dashboard beta. In which you give Microsoft the right to indefinitely keep all your bing voice search data alongside your personal information to use in anyway they choose and confirm that the terms and conditions you agree to will apply and extend beyond the beta until the end of time. It's fucking sinister. These legalese documents are specifically designed to confuse and hide intent from the person agreeing, I don't usually pay much attention to the average one that comes with a game but things like betas, system updates (things which handle sensitive information) and the like are worth skimming through at the very least.

OP, are there any major differences between the EULA you have there from GOG and the usual version, say from the developers' website?

Here's a link to the original Torchlight ToS: http://www.torchlightgame.com/terms-of-use/

Basically, Dr. Awkward said it best - there's a bunch of additional EULAs added on to the final ToS, including GOG's as well as libPNG's and FreeType's (I don't know what those last two are, admittedly). If Dr. Awkward is right, then most of the additions don't serve much of a point other than to make the ToS even longer and more convoluted than before.

Also, screw Microsoft further if that bit on the 360 dashboard beta is true. The U.S. really needs to get its software laws in order, imho.

EULAs are funny beasts. While a good many of them aren't trying to be bad, they are written in dense and lengthy legalese to get people to not understand them or just to stop reading them. Also, they are included as to get people to think they are signing a contract, which would then have the person/people think that if there is a problem they can't take legal action against the publisher. This has been a very grey area over the course of the years, though recently the courts have been siding with publishers more and more, especially if comes to intellectual property. However, the ones that have been won against EULAs were basically arguing that they/you are a captive audience and that you cannot experience the software without signing/agreeing to it, so whatever the complaint you wouldn't know it until it was too late. Sort of the way cars were before lemon laws.

Software really needs its own sort of "lemon laws" in this day and age. The dramatic rise in the software industry since the writing of the DMCA as well as the tendency for companies to legally make themselves not liable for releasing a nonfunctional or damaging product as well as the ability to sell any software product as a "service" that leaves the customer with no real ownership of anything really shows how dated the software laws are here in the States.

When it comes ToS, just remember to eat-uh the vanilla paste-oh and not the cuttlefish and asparagus.

Wha... I don't get it. Y u so confusing, DVS? (also, how's that fanfic from forever ago coming along?)

I reckon these companies shouldn't be allowed to take payment until the customer has passed a short test to prove they have actually read the EULA.

I like the way you think! XD

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

When it comes ToS, just remember to eat-uh the vanilla paste-oh and not the cuttlefish and asparagus.

Wha... I don't get it. Y u so confusing, DVS? (also, how's that fanfic from forever ago coming along?)

It's not that obscure a reference.
<youtube=sdR7hCjQNwA>
Also it's on hold right now on account of some other writing exercises I need to get done right now.

Been quite a while since I've seen that episode or SP in general, so that reference went right past me.

What writing exercises, if I may ask?

On Topic to avoid mod wrath: I still haven't finished that ToS yet, and may make a rare exception of my "always read these things" rule. I really hate how ridiculous these things are.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

My main problem is that even if you read and understand the EULA, but simply don't agree to all terms and conditions (from a moral standpoint), you have no other recourse.

It's not like you can use the product and demand a different EULA. If the legalese is going to be that byzantine, that should be the trade-off.

Anything beyond this is just unnecessary: 1) don't steal/copy, 2) don't sue us if your PC/OS gets toasted, 3) don't reverse engineer/cheat, 4) no harassment

You can demand a different EULA. However, the software company is not likely to give it to you unless you really make it worth their while. If it is not in their financial benefit to negotiate different terms with you, they are within their rights to tell you "no".

Funny enough, most EULAs are composed of the 4 core items you listed but are in legale.

And 2 is illegal here

As are "all sales are final" provisions

Oh and that doesn't rule out it being judged an "unfair contract" and therefore illegal as well

 

[theultimateend]

From what I understand, EULA's are of dubious legal value anyway, they are designed to protect the publisher, but I've heard that if something actually makes it to trial most judges will ignore them.

That's because they almost always come after the point of purchase and disputing them results in the loss of your entire account in most cases which is tons of other products.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I agree, it's ridiculous. On one hand, companies do need to be covered from every angle because of how litigious some people in the US are. But on the other hand, it's completely unreasonable to expect anyone to read it. I think a court needs to rule that you cannot expect a consumer to read the terms and conditions as they are and acknowledge that in the VAST majority of cases people will not read them. The only reason they've been allowed to become so long without an uproar from inconvenienced consumers is that most people don't read them. They need to have a shorter terms and conditions, limited in length, that explains plainly what will be done with a user's information and what priviledges they have. I realise I probably sound like an idiot who doesn't like to read, but it's better than having this stupid double standard where users are expected to abide by a list of rules so stupidly long and confusing that the average person can't reasonable be expected to read and understand it.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

A video from "the checkout" on the ABC on online agreements

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTfmiCkdylE

I love the ABC

 

[WWmelb]

It is ridiculous the length of these things.

If other entertainment media can get by with -
films
One screen stating what it is illegal to do with the product.

Music
Nothing

Then i do not see why software needs to be convoluted.

 

[Woodsey]

I'm not from the US, but to me it's unclear exactly how much of such an EULA would actually count, should it ever matter.

In the UK, "not very much" is the answer, I believe.

OT: It's good that you read them OP, I'd hate to see your mouth stuck to another man's anus.

 

[AlbertoDeSanta]

In my opinion, they should have two versions. Condensed and Lengthened. That way, if you wnat to know the general gist of what you're buying/signing up for you'll read the condensed. However, if you're insanely paranoid that the Publisher wants your Soul, then by all means, read the Normal Length.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

In my opinion, they should have two versions. Condensed and Lengthened. That way, if you wnat to know the general gist of what you're buying/signing up for you'll read the condensed. However, if you're insanely paranoid that the Publisher wants your Soul, then by all means, read the Normal Length.

Someone did that

By placing an order via this Web site on the first day of the fourth month of the year 2010 Anno Domini, you agree to grant Us a non transferable option to claim, for now and for ever more, your immortal soul. Should We wish to exercise this option, you agree to surrender your immortal soul, and any claim you may have on it, within 5 (five) working days of receiving written notification from gamesation.co.uk or one of its duly authorised minions....we reserve the right to serve such notice in 6 (six) foot high letters of fire, however we can accept no liability for any loss or damage caused by such an act. If you a) do not believe you have an immortal soul, b) have already given it to another party, or c) do not wish to grant Us such a license, please click the link below to nullify this sub-clause and proceed with your transaction."

http://boingboing.net/2010/04/16/video-game-shoppers.html