SkullGirl's Indiegogo Project: Lab Zero Games needs funds to finish its first DLC character.

[xPixelatedx]

How is it insane? There are hundreds of people in many different positions that need to be payed their salary

You immediately answered your own question. It shouldn't take hundreds of people to make a single character. I know someone who made an entire game recently and I would argue that it seems to have as much work put into it as a game like Street Fighter 4. Guy's name is Dean Dodrill and this is the game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust:_An_Elysian_Tail
If all the in-game assets he made really cost as much to make as people are saying, It must have cost him $100'000'000+ to make this game. It didn't, because he made them by himself. If a single person can make a game of this caliber, you don't need so many for a single Street Fighter character. Oh, and for the record, many of the in-game sprites for the main protagonist and enemies look on par with blaz-blue and Skullgirls (even if the character banter cinematics are lacking).

I am simply saying we have created a very inefficient system that is very unsustainable. It would be one thing if Street Fighter 4 was a giant MMO or something done with the scope and caliber of Mass Effect. But come on, it's Street Fighter. You can basically see everything the game has to offer (literally) within nearly an hour or two (every background/character/move).

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well this is absurd, I don't mind people supporting them but don't come in with those sort of bullshit numbers, if the company is in trouble or something that is fine just don't bloody lie when you are asking people to trust you.

 

[deathbydeath]

Well this is absurd, I don't mind people supporting them but don't come in with those sort of bullshit numbers, if the company is in trouble or something that is fine just don't bloody lie when you are asking people to trust you.

First, I suggest you take a look at some gameplay footage of Skullgirls. Particularly notice the animation smoothness and quality. Now consider this: Every frame on every character is hand-drawn. Given both that and the extreme quality of the animations, I'm not too surprised at the cost.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Part of the cost is the fact that this character will be DLC and patched into the game.


Releasing DLC and patches carries inherent fees by sony/microsoft, it demands QnA sessions and stuff. All this costs money, extra money that wouldn't be needed if the char was just one more of the cast for the disk version of the game.



If you don't understand why fighting game chars are so expensive to make, read this:

http://kofaniv.snkplaymore.co.jp/english/info/15th_anniv/2d_dot/creation/index.php



It may give you a new appreciation on the medium.

 

[Candidus]

I'm in. This is the first kickstarter since Project Eternity that I've pledged a substantial sum of money to. I can't think of any studio more deserving, whose product I'm more interested in than Skullgirls. Keep 'em going!

 

[SweetShark]

How is it insane? There are hundreds of people in many different positions that need to be payed their salary

You immediately answered your own question. It shouldn't take hundreds of people to make a single character. I know someone who made an entire game recently and I would argue that it seems to have as much work put into it as a game like Street Fighter 4. Guy's name is Dean Dodrill and this is the game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust:_An_Elysian_Tail
If all the in-game assets he made really cost as much to make as people are saying, It must have cost him $100'000'000+ to make this game. It didn't, because he made them by himself. If a single person can make a game of this caliber, you don't need so many for a single Street Fighter character. Oh, and for the record, many of the in-game sprites for the main protagonist and enemies look on par with blaz-blue and Skullgirls (even if the character banter cinematics are lacking).

I am simply saying we have created a very inefficient system that is very unsustainable. It would be one thing if Street Fighter 4 was a giant MMO or something done with the scope and caliber of Mass Effect. But come on, it's Street Fighter. You can basically see everything the game has to offer (literally) within nearly an hour or two (every background/character/move).

Indeed, but to be fair, it took him 5 years to do so and no one is cable like him to create a solid game like this.
Plus even if the make of Dusk final finished it, he had man,many difficulties with his personal life...
He literally get sick of this game when he finished it...

Having a big team like Lab Zero for a title like Skullgirls, I think is normal.
Hell what about the king of fighters or Street Fighters games? I think they need a lot more of money in my opinion.

 

[Username Redacted]

Having a big team like Lab Zero for a title like Skullgirls, I think is normal. Hell what about the king of fighters or Street Fighters games? I think they need a lot more of money in my opinion.

At this point I am very worried about the future of fighting games as once the arcade scene finishes collapsing (all but done in the USA sans NYC and California) I am not sure how developers are going to be able to justify costs for a new IP. This is probably why you see Capcom doing HD re-releases of any series with even the faintest pulse of a fan-base.

Also this thread needed this picture:

 

[TrevHead]

250k a character is insane.

I'll be the first person to say that the industry is bloated but you really can't compare a indie bedroom programmed game to a professional studio as the staff aren't doing it out of love it's a job to them and they need paying a wage that's appropriate to their profession.

snip

you are right. especially when they list 2000$ only to apply hitboxes correctly.

thats lunatic. for one single character.

Yes $2k for hitbox sounds alot at first until you stop to think that a competitive arcade game needs alot spending on playtesting and reiteration and constant tweaking. It's not like a content rich game like a RPG where devs can get away with cutting corners, it has to be perfect or as near as damn it to provide a tight gaming experience. That's why alot of PC games like Hawken, Tribes and DOTA 2 are in Beta for years while they playtest and reiterate, sadly traditional console games don't have that luxury.

At this point I am very worried about the future of fighting games as once the arcade scene finishes collapsing (all but done in the USA sans NYC and California) I am not sure how developers are going to be able to justify costs for a new IP. This is probably why you see Capcom doing HD re-releases of any series with even the faintest pulse of a fan-base.

I too am worried about how the lack of arcades will effect not just fighters but shmups. For one the lack of a revinue stream for niche genres but most the fact that it's in the arcade halls where these games are playtested by the most skilled players. Take away such a hotbed of hardcore gamers and the games loose that tight balancing in the fighter mechanics or in the case of shmups providing extreamly deep score mechanics that players can pick apart and work out complex highscore strategies.

I already know that CAVE who are the CAPCOM of the shmup genre have in the recent collapse of the arcades have lost a little bit of the tight balancing they are renown for (although they still put other games to shame). I would guess that the only answer for arcade genres is to follow the lead of PC games and do closed Betas and patching, but then we run into MS and Sony charging $10k per patch and setting file size limits.

BTW from what I've heard is that MikeZ has mentioned that with this fundraiser been success full he is going to use the DLC to push the delayed 360 patch through.

Anyway console manufacturers are going to have to modify their beta and patching process in the next gen to make it possible for arcade / console exclusives to do extensive playtesting.

 

[SweetShark]

Indeed its need this.
I will update my OP right now!!!

 

[Legion]

I wish they'd put a bit more detail into what each backing option gives.

When they say $5 is a pre-order do they mean a full copy of the game, or a deposit like you get in American GameStop?

$5 seems really cheap for the game, but to me the wording means that it is a full copy. Except when you look at the $30 version giving you a Steam code.

 

[Maximum Bert]

now that CAVE who are the CAPCOM of the shmup genre have in the recent collapse of the arcades have lost a little bit of the tight balancing they are renown for (although they still put other games to shame). I would guess that the only answer for arcade genres is to follow the lead of PC games and do closed Betas and patching, but then we run into MS and Sony charging $10k per patch and setting file size limits.

Well CAVE are specialist Shmup game makers as far as I know so they arent like Capcom really as Capcom make a range of games also are the arcades collapsing in Japan as well? I would imagine thats where CAVE do their betas and testing if it is thats a shame Japanese arcades are awesome in my experience. As for the file patch size I think its just Microsoft that limit it for whatever reason either they want you to have to patch multiple times so they get more money or they want efficiently coded patches that download quickly (depending on your view).

If you don't understand why fighting game chars are so expensive to make, read this:

http://kofaniv.snkplaymore.co.jp/english/info/15th_anniv/2d_dot/creation/index.php



It may give you a new appreciation on the medium.

Wow I dont think thats 100% relative to Skullgirls as they reckon they can get a character out in a few months and I would question it for KOF as well I mean they did release 3 DLC characters but then these could quite possibly have been made already and just cut or started shortly after development of the rest of the game who knows but I would say KoF XIII s art and animation is top notch. Animation wise Skullgirls tops it (imo) as it seems to flow smoother but overall for detail on character models and animation as a whole KoF XIII is in a class of it own (despite having a substantially fewer frames of animation per character it seems (than a lot of other 2d fighters)) the game is beautiful I never played XII which is what that article seems to be on but as far as I know XIII uses the same models but just adds more. Although they dont seem as high res as skullgirls or Blazblue (do they use vector models in Blazblue?)

If Street Fighter characters take a million to make,i cannot imagine how much money goes into a Blazblue character

I heard that as well and I just thought WTF 1 million and the characters look terrible they animate fine but god is the art ugly and not exactly the most detailed sort of reminds me of playdoh for some characters whenever I look at them. I dont know how much a Blazblue character costs they are pretty detailed but from what I have heard shortcuts are used to keep the costs down such as weapons and accessories changing scale and stretching blades as well as cheap sword trail slashes but thats just what I have heard and it could be complete rubbish I just worry about the final product and Blazblue looks great to me I cant see it costing more than 1 million though thats just stupid money and Arc arent huge.

 

[xPixelatedx]

There is no easy way to put this so here it is. You are wrong and know nothing as far as game design goes. that ALL frames in this game are hand drawn and not computer generated, the fact it is only 250K is surprisingly cheap.

Oh yes, they have to pay all the people involved, that was never my issue. Yes, all the frames in Skullgirls are drawn individually, but so were all the in-game frames in Dust: an Elysian tail. Expanding on that example further, I have seen a lot of impressive things come out of people's basements over the years, thanks to the internet. I wonder how many people it would realistically take to make a SKullgirls character if they had to minimize it; considering I have seen people solo such projects(yes even in games, as I mentioned). But going by the industry standard, I guess the Skullgirls thing isn't too bad, even if it does seem a little high. The Street Fighter thing though; I totally won't accept that, at least not as a necessary evil. A million for one Street fighter character? Clearly they are paying way to many people to work on things like this. That is, of course not to say it should only take one person to make a street fighter character (even though one person could), just saying it shouldn't take as many as they apparently use. With more competence involved, it wouldn't take a small army to make something like a SF4 character, and they wouldn't have to pay said army accordingly.

 

[TrevHead]

now that CAVE who are the CAPCOM of the shmup genre have in the recent collapse of the arcades have lost a little bit of the tight balancing they are renown for (although they still put other games to shame). I would guess that the only answer for arcade genres is to follow the lead of PC games and do closed Betas and patching, but then we run into MS and Sony charging $10k per patch and setting file size limits.

Well CAVE are specialist Shmup game makers as far as I know so they arent like Capcom really as Capcom make a range of games also are the arcades collapsing in Japan as well? I would imagine thats where CAVE do their betas and testing if it is thats a shame Japanese arcades are awesome in my experience. As for the file patch size I think its just Microsoft that limit it for whatever reason either they want you to have to patch multiple times so they get more money or they want efficiently coded patches that download quickly (depending on your view).

Rereading my original post I think I was been hyperbolic in saying that Japanese are collapsing but from what I can gather from other ppl who live in Japan is that the market is certainly contracting, to such a degree that it's no longer economically viable for many arcade devs to make true custom made chip Arcade Printed Circuit Boards and moving on to PC based systems like NESiCAxLIVE which excludes the home enthusiast market, ppl who apart from spending thousands of pounds on a game also help with playtesting, IIRC that particular system doesn't even work outside of Japan, which even further damages sales.

NESiCAxLIVE seems to be where many shmup devs are heading but I don't know the situation with Fighters, since they are such a popular genre in the arcades I would guess that atleast Capcom are in a situation to afford to make their own arcade PCBs.

You are correct in Sony not enforcing such tight patching limits as MS although 10k per patch is too much for any multiplat mid tier / indie dev to swallow.

 

[Username Redacted]

I too am worried about how the lack of arcades will effect not just fighters but shmups. For one the lack of a revinue stream for niche genres but most the fact that it's in the arcade halls where these games are playtested by the most skilled players. Take away such a hotbed of hardcore gamers and the games loose that tight balancing in the fighter mechanics or in the case of shmups providing extreamly deep score mechanics that players can pick apart and work out complex highscore strategies.

I already know that CAVE who are the CAPCOM of the shmup genre have in the recent collapse of the arcades have lost a little bit of the tight balancing they are renown for (although they still put other games to shame). I would guess that the only answer for arcade genres is to follow the lead of PC games and do closed Betas and patching, but then we run into MS and Sony charging $10k per patch and setting file size limits.

BTW from what I've heard is that MikeZ has mentioned that with this fundraiser been success full he is going to use the DLC to push the delayed 360 patch through.

Anyway console manufacturers are going to have to modify their beta and patching process in the next gen to make it possible for arcade / console exclusives to do extensive playtesting.

It's good to hear the the 360 version will finally be brought up to date. I am optimistic about the Ouya and Ouya-bandwagon-esque ideas as if something like that became the "console" standard for a given game or genre then playtesting and updating would be infinitely faster and cheaper. Fighting games and shmups are games that I'm not sure survive the next console cycle without something radically changing in the way that game development works.