Skyrim is not an RPG

[Krantos]

No, wait, hear me out.

If you haven't watched Extra Credits's three part series on Western Vs. Japanese RPGs, do so now : http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1

Seen it? Well, here's the short version: JRPGs and WRPGs have different "Core Engagements" so they aren't really part of the same genre. They have similar elements, but the reasons you play them are totally different.

That being said, lets take a closer look at Western RPGs. As far as I can see, there are two sub-types: Games like Dragon Age/Mass Effect/etc., and games like Skyrim. These two types of games are radically different. Sure, they have similar elements and may even share some core engagements, but you play them for totally different reasons.

For example, Exploration is an enormous aspect to Skyrim. Not really in Dragon Age. Flip side, Story and Character Development are probably the biggest part of Mass Effect. Skyrim's story is kind of phoned in.

Player Character Definition is a little sketchier. Defining your character in Dragon Age is very different from defining them in Skyrim. In the former case almost all the definition you do is done through dialogue. In the latter, it's more restricted to actions. So while you are defining them, you do so in radically different ways.

An analogy to further emphasize the different engagements I like to use is competing parenting methods.

BioWare games are the parents that plan out elaborate trips (say Disney) for their kids. They allow the child to make some choices about what they do, but it's still rather restricted and regimented. The lack of choice is balanced by the fantastic places you get to see.

Bethesda style games are the parents who build an elaborate playset in the back yard, fill it with toys and let the child amuse themselves. Rather than being taken someplace spectacular they are allowed to make up their own spectacular places.

Both styles have merit but they focus on very different things and have different outcomes.

The point is, if we refer to games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect as RPGs I don't really think the title applies well to games like Skyrim. It ends up creating improper expectations.

For example, a common complaint I've seen applied to Skyrim is the world seems generally unconcerned about the player, and that the player can do little to impact it. Personally I think this complaint is a carryover from the BioWare style games which focus heavily on those areas. Anyone who has played a previous Elder Scrolls game would have been used to that. While the ability to impact the game world is a great thing, its not the focus of that type of game.

You simply can't go into an Open World game like Skyrim with the same expectation you go into say, Mass Effect with. They are intended to provide totally different engagements.

Putting it another way: I play BioWare games to be told a story. I play Skyrim to make my own story.

Of course, the problem becomes that if we don't call it an RPG what do we call it. "Open World" sounds good, since that really encapsulates a lot of the engagements. "Sandbox" is nice, but the term is used so much these days I think it's become meaningless.

IDK, what does the rest of the community think?

 

[isometry]

You're on the right track, but got the conclusion backwards. Look at the history of roleplaying games, which started with pen and paper (PnP) games:

1) PnP games have extensive character creation with stats and skills. Usually you can choose to make your character one of several races, choose their sex, choose their background and morality, etc.

2) PnP books give some ideas for settings, but it is largely about the players and the game master making up their own stories in the world that the game designers created.

That is the historical starting point for RPGs, and PnP games still largely follow this design. I'm not saying that the term "RPG" shouldn't expand its meaning in time, but early computer/console RPGs were based on the ideas from Pen and Paper games. At the start of Final Fantasy 1, you create four characters that can be any one of six classes (Fighter, Thief, Black Belt, Red Mage, White Mage, and Black Mage). They don't have default names, much less being a specific group of emo teenagers with specific linear story.

So I won't go so far as to say "Mass Effect is not an RPG." But like all of Bioware's recent titles, it has less connection with the historic RPG genre than Skyrim does.

 

[SajuukKhar]

The term RPG as it is now is meaningless because it is so vague that it covers almost every type of game imaginable.

Fallout 1
Baldur's Gate
Skyrim
Mass effect

Are all RPGs and none of them are any less of a "true" RPG then any other.

Beyond that one could easily make the case that many FPS are RPGs also.

The terms we use to define games, such as RPG, FPS, etc. etc. have become so blended due to hybridization that using them nowadays is kinda pointless.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Fallout 1 and Baldurs Gate are true RPGs because they don't rely on the players twitch skills/reactions. They're all about the characters skills. While Skyrim and ME are really action games with rpg elements.

Except that is a definition based off of video game RPGs that were based off of pen-and-papper tabletop RPGs, however, even before the existence of videogames, tabletop RPGs were NOT the only form of RPG, and the other forms of RPGs back then didn't follow the same rules as P&P and were equally true RPGs.

gameplay based on character skill =/= determine if it a true RPG or not.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I'm basing it off the ORIGINAL rpg which derived from traditional wargaming. Designed by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, first published in 1974, D&D. Nuff said.

People were laRPing centuries before D&D was made, and laRPing can be done..... with "player", or in the case actor, skill instead of basing it off of their fictional characters skill.

Also just because there is an original style =/= the term can't evolve to fit others as well. By that logic only the ORIGINAL form of martial arts, which is probably lost to time, is the only REAL martial arts, everything else isn't "true" martial arts, which is OFC wrong.

Nuff said.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Haha, LARPing. People running around in the woods playing 'pretend'. That's what Oblivion/Skyrim tries to emulate right ?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Roleplaying

Role-playing refers to the changing of one's behaviour to assume a role, either unconsciously to fill a social role, or consciously to act out an adopted role. While the Oxford English Dictionary defines role-playing as "the changing of one's behaviour to fulfill a social role", the term is used more loosely in four senses:

-To refer to the playing of roles generally such as in a theatre, or educational setting;
-To refer to taking a role of an existing character or person and acting it out with a partner taking someone else's role, often involving different genres of practice;
-To refer to a wide range of games including role-playing video game, play-by-mail games and more;
-To refer specifically to role-playing games.

LaRPing fits into the definition of roleplay, it was the first, and just because it doesn't fit the P&P use of the word, which FYI P&P isn't the first, doesn't mean it isnt real RPing.

You are trying to use a specific definition, which is only a small facet of what the term role-playing represents, as the definition for ALL RPGs which you simply can't do.

 

[The Wykydtron]

Yeah Skyrim isn't really an RPG... The "dialogue" system was 9/10 times the continue quest button with only one choice to make. Why was it even there?

I find RPing in just the "build your own character" sense only works if the game actually gives you room to do so. Like how you could just say "at this point my character would do X" go off and do exactly what you wanted and not have the game go "lol no, you're doing it our way"

Basically this is the long winded way of saying how much better Fallout: New Vegas is compared to Skyrim. I would have been far kinder to Skyrim if I hadn't played so much NV beforehand.

Obsidian, man... Did they do any Open World stuff before NV? Or did they really just show up and blow Bethesda's archive of Open World games out of the water first try?

On an unrelated note. Why am i posting at 5 in the morning?!

 

[SajuukKhar]

I don't know if I would consider LARPing and regular PnP or cRPG playing in the same category, but they are all at least loosely related under the word role-playing. That being said, I think there is a world of difference between wearing a costume and acting something out and rolling dice or playing a CRPG.

They are very different no question, but they are ALL RPing and all valid forms of RP, and none is any more "true" then the others.

Yeah Skyrim isn't really an RPG... The "dialogue" system was 9/10 times the continue quest button with only one choice to make. Why was it even there?

I find RPing in just the "build your own character" sense only works if the game actually gives you room to do so. Like how you could just say "at this point my character would do X" go off and do exactly what you wanted and not have the game go "lol no, you're doing it our way"

Basically this is the long winded way of saying how much better Fallout: New Vegas is compared to Skyrim. I would have been far kinder to Skyrim if I hadn't played so much NV beforehand.

Obsidian, man... Did they do any Open World stuff before NV? Or did they really just show up and blow Bethesda's archive of Open World games out of the water first try?

I can name numerous instances in Skyrim were I was able to flat out deny peoples request, in fact most of the peoples "can you get X for me" quests had a deny option on them, and was able to turn the tables on the quest giver, mostly in daedric quests.

There were plenty of times were you could tell people no.

 

[Krantos]

Snip

I think you missed the point. I'm not talking about mechanics here; I'm referring to core engagements. Seriously, if you haven't yet, watch the Extra Credits episode I linked in the OP. They do a much better job explaining the concept than I could.

 

[RevRaptor]

what about the term action rpg, A-Rpg used to be used to refer to games like Zelda, I think that would be a good description of Skyrim.

 

[80Maxwell08]

I really wish people would stop bringing up that Extra Credits series already. It's filled with problems and they are factually wrong with a ton of things. It freaking ends with them saying one type of gameplay is outright better than another. Seriously? I have a few articles I can bring up that prove them wrong for the first 2 episodes if you want to see them. The last episode's worst problem is what I already mentioned.

 

[malestrithe]

I believe that you are splitting hairs and are looking for divisions where they do not really belong.

You make characters, you make decisions based on where you take your character. When you beat the bad guy, that little campaign is over and you start a new one. Beyond that, the details do not matter at all.

What goes on in the game is the difference between you have a strict GM or a lenient GM.

Bioware is a strict DM, he gives you some input in the flow of the game, but you are a character in his world and you will follow his storyline.

Bethesda is a lenient GM, He does not really have a set path, more like a goal. He will allow you to play in whatever style you want, go wherever you want and he makes it up as he goes along.

Both provide an experience, but in different ways.

 

[Tanakh]

I really wish people would stop bringing up that Extra Credits series already. It's filled with problems and they are factually wrong with a ton of things. It freaking ends with them saying one type of gameplay is outright better than another. Seriously? I have a few articles I can bring up that prove them wrong for the first 2 episodes if you want to see them. The last episode's worst problem is what I already mentioned.

This, not a fan of Extra Credits at all, especially due the:

they are factually wrong with a ton of things.

and the presenting their opinions as the logic conclusion.

That said:

You're on the right track, but got the conclusion backwards.

I agree with this, for me Skyrim gives me the chance of roleplay, ME 3 it's more like an interactive novel. I am a fan of silent or not to talkative characters though, unless they are damn well written, and by damn well i mean Shakespeare cohesion of character and insight level.

 

[Darknacht]

Obsidian, man... Did they do any Open World stuff before NV? Or did they really just show up and blow Bethesda's archive of Open World games out of the water first try?

The people at Obsidian worked for Interplay. Interplay made the original Fallout games, which are way more open than the newer games.

OT: I get your point but I never considered Mass Effect much of a RPG because of the lack of meaningful control it seems to be more of a story based FPS. If you want to see games with both exploration and story and character development look at Fallout 1&2, Arcanum, and Planescape: Torment.
I agree with your point but I think we need a better name for Mass Effect like games as well because if you acknowledge that the games I listed are RPGs(which most people would) and if that is what you think of with the term RPG(which I do), then calling Mass Effect an RPG will creating improper expectations. So we should probably call Mass Effect a Drama/Story Based FPS or Action JRPG or something.