Skyrim, level-scaling, and you.

[Omnific One]

In an effort to prevent the perpetuation of misinformation about level scaling in Skyrim, here's a quick post.

GStaff (Bethesda employee and forum mod) quote:

Since people are asking, wanted to briefly touch on level scaling. All our games have had some amount of randomness/levelling based on player level. Skyrim's is similar to Fallout 3's, not Oblivion's.

Hope that addresses some concerns, and we hope you're enjoying the GI cover story.

Have a great night

So, it's like Fallout. Which means it's barely noticeable in comparison with Oblivion.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

Edit:

Generally, enemy scaling works really well for repeat playthroughs, when you already know your favorite dungeons and quests.

And having to grind up to a certain level of ability again, just makes repeat playthroughs a hassle at times.

This is the reason I played Oblivion so many times, with the full enemy scaling, there is nothing stopping me from running to my favorite haunts with a new character. I can head there right away, without being bothered by anything I can't handle. You still get a challenge from the boss enemies of dungeons.

The only real issue starts at higher levels of around 30. You combat skills cap at 100, and enemies will still get stronger with more health, even when you level through your Speechcraft skill, and you're still doing the same amount of damage.

For people who play one character, scaling can suck really bad and make the game into a wall that requires glitch/exploit abuse to make it through at higher levels.

 

[ImprovizoR]

In an effort to prevent the perpetuation of misinformation about level scaling in Skyrim, here's a quick post.

GStaff (Bethesda employee and forum mod) quote:

Since people are asking, wanted to briefly touch on level scaling. All our games have had some amount of randomness/levelling based on player level. Skyrim's is similar to Fallout 3's, not Oblivion's.

Hope that addresses some concerns, and we hope you're enjoying the GI cover story.

Have a great night

So, it's like Fallout. Which means it's barely noticeable in comparison with Oblivion.

No, it's similar to Fallout, not like Fallout. Which probably means they tweaked it and improved it further. At least I like to believe so.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

On the contrary, I enjoy a challenge. I just hate when they give you an open game world, and then DISCOURAGE exploration until you return at a higher level. I'm at the dungeon now, I want to have a chance in hell at beating it. A Daedroth vs Me and my Iron Broadsword is not even remotely fair, especially when that's only OUTSIDE the dungeon. Lords know what I run into inside!

 

[maturin]

That's good. Means the mod that fixes it will come out much sooner than OOO did.

 

[Kakashi on crack]

Hmm, as long as they don't go overboard with how it runs... *cough* Deathclaw cave at level 3 *cough* (It's plausible to clear out the place with enough stims and grenades, just really, really hard)

Don't get me wrong, I love being challenged, I just don't want to have an open area and then be forced not to explore it till I've completeted enough quests to get my levels, and skills up...

 

[C95J]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

 

[Lord Beautiful]

Oh good. I was worried when it was said to have returned in Skyrim. Now let's hope that they bring back kickass loot like we had in Morrowind, which was woefully absent in Oblivion.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

Apparently, RPGs shouldn't give the player a consistent challenge, and you should be an over-powered bastard at the end game, or something. Grinding through tough spots should also totally be an option, too. And Bandits look silly in Glass Armor or whatever.

 

[Electric Yemeth]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So? It is reasonable that there are powerful beings in a mystical area. That being said I disliked both scaling-systems: Oblivion, probably because on my first plays (never finished the game) I just took what seemed naturally to my playstyle and ended with an under-leveled character. On my other plays (after some research) I had a mighty immortal god. Both pretty bad.
Fallout 3 : Well, you could kill everything, even after putting the difficulty to the top. The levelling almost always ended you with being a pro in everything, or at the very least two combat skills and a few non-combat handy skills. Plus most perks were pretty overpowered. Scaling ,as mentioned, was barely noticeable.

With that being said, I don't know what would be good. Sure, scaling is important, but having those bandits suddenly appear with daedric weapons seems... pointless. I mean i was looking for those things 20 levels and they just appear with them. Having nothing but scamps in a deadric ruin also takes some of the danger from exploring at an early level. In a "real" fantasy world there are not only monster at your appropriate level, there are also strong leaders and mythical creatures which you should not be able to beat as a rookie. So yeah, there should be some scaling, but also a fair amount of "I'd rather avoid this path" and some "Oh, those cute bandits" - areas.

 

[Phlakes]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

It gives no sense of progression. Without it, once you've gotten pretty far in a game you can go back and destroy the enemies that were giving you trouble at lower levels. With it there's really no point in leveling up because you'll still be doing and taking the same relative amount of damage.

 

[Hyper-space]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

No, he wants a game where there is more than a couple of ruins he can explore without running into fucking daedra lords.

Morrowind was exploration wise, awful. They wasted all of these beautiful dwemer ruins and lore by having a slow-as-fuck traveling system, high-level dungeons scattered between the lower level ones and horribly broken combat-system.

 

[Dexiro]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

I prefer that. I mean I wouldn't want so much of the game to be closed off that it becomes almost linear, but it's nice knowing there are a few areas you can't go to, and then you feel all powerful when you finally get through them :3

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So? It is reasonable that there are powerful beings in a mystical area. That being said I disliked both scaling-systems: Oblivion, probably because on my first plays (never finished the game) I just took what seemed naturally to my playstyle and ended with an under-leveled character. On my other plays (after some research) I had a mighty immortal god. Both pretty bad.
Fallout 3 : Well, you could kill everything, even after putting the difficulty to the top. The levelling almost always ended you with being a pro in everything, or at the very least two combat skills and a few non-combat handy skills. Plus most perks were pretty overpowered. Scaling ,as mentioned, was barely noticeable.

With that being said, I don't know what would be good. Sure, scaling is important, but having those bandits suddenly appear with daedric weapons seems... pointless. I mean i was looking for those things 20 levels and they just appear with them. Having nothing but scamps in a deadric ruin also takes some of the danger from exploring at an early level. In a "real" fantasy world there are not only monster at your appropriate level, there are also strong leaders and mythical creatures which you should not be able to beat as a rookie. So yeah, there should be some scaling, but also a fair amount of "I'd rather avoid this path" and some "Oh, those cute bandits" - areas.

It just don't feel right being presented with a giant world, told by the game to explore it, and then having certain areas fenced in until hours later.

The game sends mixed signals. Explore, but NOT HERE!

 

[GiantRaven]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

The problem I had was that if you didn't focus on combat skills when you levelled up you would get outclassed by enemies very quickly. That wasn't a problem with the existence of level scaling though, more a poor implementation. In Fallout 3 it worked very well.

 

[C95J]

snip

snip

Oh right, I get it. Enemies all scale to your own level, so you get a challenge throughout. I can't yet decide if this is good or bad.

On one hand there is a nice challenge all the way through the game, so that makes it a bit more fun I guess. But on the other hand you can go anywhere at any level, without levelling up and kill whatever is in your way (still a challenge but can also leave you with a bit of disappointment because you feel as if your character still has the same amount of power as he/she/it did 6 levels ago.

At least that is what I think it is about, is there anything more than it than that? I'm sort of on the line with this one.

EDIT:

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

The problem I had was that if you didn't focus on combat skills when you levelled up you would get outclassed by enemies very quickly. That wasn't a problem with the existence of level scaling though, more a poor implementation. In Fallout 3 it worked very well.

Never thought of this, but I guess this could make a game more linear than some people want, with the fact that you might have to definitely focus on certain skills to stay in competition with enemies...

 

[Omnific One]

In an effort to prevent the perpetuation of misinformation about level scaling in Skyrim, here's a quick post.

GStaff (Bethesda employee and forum mod) quote:

Since people are asking, wanted to briefly touch on level scaling. All our games have had some amount of randomness/levelling based on player level. Skyrim's is similar to Fallout 3's, not Oblivion's.

Hope that addresses some concerns, and we hope you're enjoying the GI cover story.

Have a great night

So, it's like Fallout. Which means it's barely noticeable in comparison with Oblivion.

No, it's similar to Fallout, not like Fallout. Which probably means they tweaked it and improved it further. At least I like to believe so.

If I say golden retrievers are like dalmatians, that's correct as they are both dogs.

Same here. Of course it will be edited.

 

[Electric Yemeth]

It just don't feel right being presented with a giant world, told by the game to explore it, and then having certain areas fenced in until hours later.

The game sends mixed signals. Explore, but NOT HERE!

It just doesn't feel right becoming the Fighter's and Mages's guild Leader, being told to by the game that you became a hero and then having all the bandits wear almost the same gear (-enchants) that you worked your ass off for.

The game sends mixed signals. BE GOD, but everyone else WILL BE AS WELL.


I don't want everything to be fenced off, which has nice loot. Only a few areas with designated mobs (which will scale or not scale, depending on what kind of area it should be.)

 

[WanderingFool]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

Well, as someone who ran into a Storm Atronach early in the game, I find I did enjoy the Morrowind leveling system. But I also liked FO3's system, so I hope that this turns out well... and if nothing else, Dual Wielding, Im happy.