'Slut' Parade

[Slings and Arrows]

I think you've totally missed the point of the article, I support them on this. They should be able to choose how they dress without the worry of being raped.

Looks like they've missed the point too.
There was a thread on a similar topic recently, so I'll just re-post what I put there for my thoughts on the topic:

A guy is walking through a rough neighbourhood waving a wad of cash around, and he gets mugged.
Now, obviously the one who mugged the guy is in the wrong 100%. That was illegal, and he should be punished.
And the guy should have the right to wave around money as much as he wants without fear of being attacked and robbed. But it's a naive and dangerous game to play. Ideally, I should be able to leave my doors unlocked, my keys in my car, and my money on my counter. But it's asking for trouble if I do any of those things.

Again, not my fault if someone robs me. I have the right to leave my door unlocked, my money out, and my keys in my car. But, at the risk of sounding redundant, it's dangerously naive to do any of those things.

Completely agree with this. Unfortunate that people have to put a damper on their freedoms to protect themselves but that's how it is. Alternately if you're going to dress "provocatively" you should damn sure be carrying every personal protector it's legal to have in your purse (mace etc.). Although I don't think the protest is really doing that much for them, I think they're missing the forest for the trees, essentially flipping out over some guy's provocative comment on the subject when in reality they seem to overlook that in most rape cases, "She led me on/provoked me/dressed provocatively" is a flimsy excuse and that oftentimes the girl was dressing and acting in a reasonable and appropriate manner. Either way the guy's not going to be able to excuse what he did whether she was wearing jeans and a t shirt or short shorts and a bikini top, so the whole issue seems almost immaterial to me.

The other thing that really takes all the seriousness out of this protest is that people still honestly believe they can "reappropriate/reclaim" any word that was pretty much invented to be harmful or negative. Plenty of African American cultural subgroups use the N-word as a colloquialism but that doesn't mean they've reclaimed it, at best they've created an alternate use for it. Any racist can still use that word to do damage with a simple change of intent, and anyone can call someone a slut and have it be hurtful if they intend it to be. "Slut" is never going to have positive connotations, just like "queer" won't as long as it continues to come out of the mouths of homophobes. Felt kind of irked by that whole side of the protest.

 

[Adam28]

Although I can kind of understand why they are protesting, I find it kind of ridiculous how this all started from a poor choice of words for some advice. The protest just seems a little pointless to me.

'Sluts are asking for it' is more than a poor choice of words. It's a very dangerous opinion.

Did he actually say 'Sluts are asking for it', I am sorry if I missed this. I just find it kind of ridiculous how there are protests over the statement "Don't dress like sluts", although unnecessary it kind of just reminds me of things like "Don't walk home in the dark alone", I should be able to but I am still at risk of a mugging or whatever.

The problem is, not only does appearance not affect rape at all (as has been proven time and time again) but even if it did, rather than say 'try not to appear seductive' or something, they say 'don't be a slut'. How about you, Mr. Police Officer, spend more time stopping rapists and less time telling women how to look.

I agree, I am not saying that the police officer was right but he was ill-informed (Even if wrong, he was trying to give advice), made a mistake, and somehow, this has resulted in protests over the word slut. To me, it seems this mess should died in Toronto with either the officer being reviewed and punished, or the officer apologizing.

 

[I am 2 cool 4 anime]

WHY DID THIS THREAD GET SO MUCH REPLIES?!!??!!Oh yes,it has the word 'slut' in it...Human beings are awful!

 

[Inglip]

God, I'm sickened by some of the posts in this thread. Most of you seem to be missing two basic points.

1) Rape isn't just about sex.

2) Women don't just dress "slutty" to get men, a lot of them dress that way because they like dressing that way. They shouldn't be blamed for trying to tempt men, just for being themselves.

Just the idea that some of you think that rape is even slightly the fault of the victim horrifies me.

 

[Manji187]

I'll admit, wandering across the railroad tracks while wearing a miniskirt is a poor idea. But the sort of people who would force themselves on a lone woman would do so even if she was wearing a trenchcoat. They're not suddenly becoming bad people because they saw a tube-top.

It's not about the clothing...it's about bare female skin. It does things to a man you know But you're right...to the really "determined" it doesn't matter what a woman wears.

But if you've reached that point, the rapist is already a ticking timebomb. Most human beings aren't on the edge of their sanity, ready to unleash the one-eyed monster in their trousers when a pair of high-heels brush away their last shred of restraint.

Most humans aren't, but you never know when you are in luck and meet "The One" (not Jet Li) and possibly push him over the edge. Sanity is a weird state. You're in it..until you aren't any longer. Different people in different circumstances have different trigger events (when they "snap").

Ehh...I can argue the opposite. Women certainly have more opportunities than men to dress provocatively, but men certainly get the better end of the deal when it comes to actual sex. Because I love analogies so much, consider this: a key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

You're gonna have to elaborate on that one. It's a beautiful analogy...I just don't see the argument.

If an undercover cop approaches you and tries to sell you drugs, he can't press charges if you do so. That would be entrapment. But at the same time, police routinely leave a car or bike unattended in a rough neighborhood, and arrest anyone who tries to steal it. This is not entrapment because the accused are not being offered something illegal and accepting: they're being left in the presence of something perfectly legal and normal and choosing to do something illegal with it.

Similarly, if a provocatively-dressed woman walks up to you, bends over, and tells you to bone her, you're not going to be charged as a rapist. You might be charged with such things as "the luckiest bastard on the planet," but that's not relevant to the point. If that same woman simply walks by you without a word, and you decide to hop aboard the Rape Train, your next destination is going to be the state pen, and with good reason.

Heh...the way you put it sure makes "me" look like a predator, pouncing without provocation. In those circumstances, yeah...total rapist.

But what do you think about the hypothetical (of course) cocktease scenario gone bad? A woman who does not fancy a man but does everything to make him horny until, on the moment supreme (lean in for the kiss), she just laughs her ass off and tells him something along the lines of "in your dreams, loser"? I admit, you are more likely to see this in a movie or TV show...but still...it is bound to have happened in real life.

 

[omega 616]

To me this is just like parents falling back on there government to raise there kids. Forcing the responsibility onto somebody else and taking none for themselvs.

If you got raped think why, beyond "the guy is a lonely perv who couldn't get any, any other way". It's not like you can leave all your possesions in full view on your car seat and not expect somebody not to take them, it's the world we live in these days.

I am not saying you have to dress like a nun but your only making yourself a target by dressing as a slut, as they so elegantly put it.

To me a woman who dresses like that shouts at everybody "I am competing for attention 'cos my self esteem is that low I need guys drooling over me to make me feel good".

It's the whole take precautions to prevent yourself from being raped that I am getting at. Should men rape women? Of course not, do they? Damn right! So try to avoid it.

It's times like these I want to shake people till they get it.

 

[Hive Mind]

Although I can kind of understand why they are protesting, I find it kind of ridiculous how this all started from a poor choice of words for some advice. The protest just seems a little pointless to me.

'Sluts are asking for it' is more than a poor choice of words. It's a very dangerous opinion.

Did he actually say 'Sluts are asking for it', I am sorry if I missed this. I just find it kind of ridiculous how there are protests over the statement "Don't dress like sluts", although unnecessary it kind of just reminds me of things like "Don't walk home in the dark alone", I should be able to but I am still at risk of a mugging or whatever.

The problem is, not only does appearance not affect rape at all (as has been proven time and time again) but even if it did, rather than say 'try not to appear seductive' or something, they say 'don't be a slut'. How about you, Mr. Police Officer, spend more time stopping rapists and less time telling women how to look.

I agree, I am not saying that the police officer was right but he was ill-informed (Even if wrong, he was trying to give advice), made a mistake, and somehow, this has resulted in protests over the word slut. To me, it seems this mess should died in Toronto with either the officer being reviewed and punished, or the officer apologizing.

I agree 100%

At least it's started some debate and is raising awareness.

 

[Inglip]

WHY DID THIS THREAD GET SO MUCH REPLIES?!!??!!Oh yes,it has the word 'slut' in it...Human beings are awful!

Oh man, you so edgy with your humanity hating and whatnot.

Maybe it's because there are multiple debates going on. You know, users posting a lot. Do you honestly think it's just because the word slut's in the title?

 

[Inglip]

To me this is just like parents falling back on there government to raise there kids. Forcing the responsibility onto somebody else and taking none for themselvs.

If you got raped think why, beyond "the guy is a lonely perv who couldn't get any, any other way". It's not like you can leave all your possesions in full view on your car seat and not expect somebody not to take them, it's the world we live in these days.

I am not saying you have to dress like a nun but your only making yourself a target by dressing as a slut, as they so elegantly put it.

To me a woman who dresses like that shouts at everybody "I am competing for attention 'cos my self esteem is that low I need guys drooling over me to make me feel good".

It's the whole take precautions to prevent yourself from being raped that I am getting at. Should men rape women? Of course not, do they? Damn right! So try to avoid it.

It's times like these I want to shake people till they get it.

So women aren't allowed to wear the clothes they want to?

 

[UFOROMANTIC]

EDIT: I made a snarky and non-constructive comment and subsequently deleted it. Move along, nothing to see here!

 

[Jackhorse]

-snip-
Or to put it another way:
Would you feel sorry for someone who got mugged when they were walking down a rough neighborhood with cash strapped all over them?
So then why feel sorry for a girl who goes out wearing close to nothing and will be around drunken guys?

Seriously? You're saying that a girl who you don't beleive wears enough clothes and goes out for nights on the town deserves to be raped? I hope you don't beleive this but your making it sound like you do so please put my mind to rest.
Personally I believe a lot of the responsibility in a rape case lies with the bloody rapist and not the victim. Girls should be able to wear what they like within reason and the action should be taken against those who would take what they want of them.

OT: Yeah I think it poor show and not the right way for a girl to comport herself, but its not my life. They can do what they want with their time and bodies and I shant interfere with thier freedoms. If they are putting themselves at risk, let them, try and stop the rapists instead.

 

[nolongerhere]

To me this is just like parents falling back on there government to raise there kids. Forcing the responsibility onto somebody else and taking none for themselvs.

If you got raped think why, beyond "the guy is a lonely perv who couldn't get any, any other way". It's not like you can leave all your possesions in full view on your car seat and not expect somebody not to take them, it's the world we live in these days.

I am not saying you have to dress like a nun but your only making yourself a target by dressing as a slut, as they so elegantly put it.

To me a woman who dresses like that shouts at everybody "I am competing for attention 'cos my self esteem is that low I need guys drooling over me to make me feel good".

It's the whole take precautions to prevent yourself from being raped that I am getting at. Should men rape women? Of course not, do they? Damn right! So try to avoid it.

It's times like these I want to shake people till they get it.

I'll just stick this here.

Patterns of Behavior in Adolescent Rape_ by Vinogradov et al. in the
American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 58(2) April 1988 pp 179-87:

71% of the rapists were under the influence of drugs (inc. alcohol).
15% reported taking drugs less than 15 minutes prior to the rape.
21% premeditated the rape.
27% committed the rape while committing another crime.
16% were impulsive/spontaneous, "the victim was simply an easy
available 'innocent bystander'".
7% were committed after an argument with the victim.
6% after sexual foreplay with the victim.

89% of the rapists described the victims as not being provocative,
"The victims did not verbally provoke nor were sexually
attractive to the attacker".

Even an overwhelmingly large portion of rapists don't believe the crap about provocative dress causing rape. You'd think people would listen to the actual rapists rather than "conventional wisdom".

General population: dumber than rapists.

From the second page. As you can see, how the victim dresses plays no real part in most rapes. Better advice to women would be to make sure they have friends with them, instead of telling them to dress conservatively.

 

[Rachel317]

They shouldn't have to listen to 'advice about avoiding rape', people shouldn't be raping in the first place!

I'm not the kind of person who can have sex with lots of people (I'm a one willy at a time, kinda gal), but people who do shouldn't be judged for it. Whether you disagree on religious grounds, moral grounds or whatever else, everyone should be able to choose how they live their lives (provided it doesn't hurt anybody else, nor is illegal).

Admittedly, I didn't read the article, but it would seem as though these girls are trying to bring about a new wave of Feminism! We have not yet achieved sexual liberation, so maybe this might be the beginnings of it? That is, if a large enough group of women support it. Like I said, I don't sleep around, but I'd definitely support the right for other women (and men) to do it if they wanted to.

BRING ON THE LIBERATION!

 

[Adam28]

Although I can kind of understand why they are protesting, I find it kind of ridiculous how this all started from a poor choice of words for some advice. The protest just seems a little pointless to me.

As I said before, even if this was just a slip of the tongue or if it's been misinterpreted, this wouldn't have been the first time the suggestion that provocative clothing "causes" rape has been made. The movement is more to end that perception on the whole, and not just to respond to this particular articulation of it.

I understand what you are saying but from the article linked, it seems more to do with reclaiming the word "slut", being proud of the term. Regardless of whether it is to stop the word "slut" from being negative or raise awareness for misconceptions of rape, the protests just feel a little pointless.

 

[omega 616]

To me this is just like parents falling back on there government to raise there kids. Forcing the responsibility onto somebody else and taking none for themselvs.

If you got raped think why, beyond "the guy is a lonely perv who couldn't get any, any other way". It's not like you can leave all your possesions in full view on your car seat and not expect somebody not to take them, it's the world we live in these days.

I am not saying you have to dress like a nun but your only making yourself a target by dressing as a slut, as they so elegantly put it.

To me a woman who dresses like that shouts at everybody "I am competing for attention 'cos my self esteem is that low I need guys drooling over me to make me feel good".

It's the whole take precautions to prevent yourself from being raped that I am getting at. Should men rape women? Of course not, do they? Damn right! So try to avoid it.

It's times like these I want to shake people till they get it.

So women aren't allowed to wear the clothes they want to?

They can wear want they want to, like I said "I am not telling any one to dress like a nun".

In the same breath, they can dress how they want to, as much as I can leave my flat door open or leave my cash/phone/wallet on the table in a resturant and go the toilet and not expect it to be robbed.

I think it's all about taking precautions and resonibility. We all know robberies shouldn't happen but they do, so what do we all do? Try and prevent them, we hide our stuff, we have locks and camera's etc etc etc.

With rape it's "I can dress and act anyway I want, if I am raped it is all his fault!".

Call it common sense or precautions or being pro active but think to yourself "am I making myself out to be a target here?".

I know if I said to my mum "I got robbed today, I left my front door open and went out for an hour or two and when I got back my flat was empty", she wouldn't say "how dare somebody do that to you!", she would say "WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN FOR? YOU STUPID BOY!" and I am pretty sure alot of other parents/family/friends would say the exact same to anybody else.

So why is it partly my fault for that, but if I was a girl and got raped by dressing like a "slut" and acting like a "slut" or in stupid way (walking home alone, maybe down a dark ally, pissed as a fart at 4 am) then it is all his fault? To me, it's not.

 

[gamer_parent]

I get that, but just the fact that the gay community managed to succeed almost completely with the word "queer" stil means that i could be not. Better than not trying at all.

Not that there are not people who still use it in a offensive tone, but when it got to the point that it was used in a tv series, might be a statement to a success in that regard.

Anyway, the n-word example is pretty good though, some words are more hate-charged than others. I still stand for trying to flip as many of them as one has the patient too.

Just to clarify, I don't use either the n-word nor "slut" in regular conversation, thought the idea of flipping them still sounds great to me. Language is a reflexion of thought and to transform its meanings will eventually change overall thoughts behind it.

But your comments are very realistic and I always hope that anyone fighting for change always take them seriously in order to avoid being overly idealistic.

In the end, I think it would be more effective to actually address the fact that we as a society tend to judge a woman's worth based on her sexuality and sexual conduct.

 

[Inglip]

To me this is just like parents falling back on there government to raise there kids. Forcing the responsibility onto somebody else and taking none for themselvs.

If you got raped think why, beyond "the guy is a lonely perv who couldn't get any, any other way". It's not like you can leave all your possesions in full view on your car seat and not expect somebody not to take them, it's the world we live in these days.

I am not saying you have to dress like a nun but your only making yourself a target by dressing as a slut, as they so elegantly put it.

To me a woman who dresses like that shouts at everybody "I am competing for attention 'cos my self esteem is that low I need guys drooling over me to make me feel good".

It's the whole take precautions to prevent yourself from being raped that I am getting at. Should men rape women? Of course not, do they? Damn right! So try to avoid it.

It's times like these I want to shake people till they get it.

So women aren't allowed to wear the clothes they want to?

They can wear want they want to, like I said "I am not telling any one to dress like a nun".

In the same breath, they can dress how they want to, as much as I can leave my flat door open or leave my cash/phone/wallet on the table in a resturant and go the toilet and not expect it to be robbed.

I think it's all about taking precautions and resonibility. We all know robberies shouldn't happen but they do, so what do we all do? Try and prevent them, we hide our stuff, we have locks and camera's etc etc etc.

With rape it's "I can dress and act anyway I want, if I am raped it is all his fault!".

Call it common sense or precautions or being pro active but think to yourself "am I making myself out to be a target here?".

I know if I said to my mum "I got robbed today, I left my front door open and went out for an hour or two and when I got back my flat was empty", she wouldn't say "how dare somebody do that to you!", she would say "WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN FOR? YOU STUPID BOY!" and I am pretty sure alot of other parents/family/friends would say the exact same to anybody else.

So why is it partly my fault for that, but if I was a girl and got raped by dressing like a "slut" and acting like a "slut" or in stupid way (walking home alone, maybe down a dark ally, pissed as a fart at 4 am) then it is all his fault? To me, it's not.

Rapists don't just sit around waiting for girls who show a little bit of cleavage, then pounce like panthers.

Besides, rape is often not about sex at all.

 

[Ericb]

In the end, I think it would be more effective to actually address the fact that we as a society tend to judge a woman's worth based on her sexuality and sexual conduct.

Smaller battles do tend to help the larger war, though.

But that root right there is probably the deepest and hardest one to pull out. You'll notice here and elsewhere that a lot guys implicitly and explictly believe the worth of that crappy judgement.

 

[Darkauthor81]

*snip*

Isn't the point of protests idealism?

No.
Well, not if I'm protesting, least-ways.
If you're protesting strictly for idealism then you're wasting your time.

A few people walking along a street isn't going to change thousands of years of human nature. Rape is one of humanity's oldest crimes to itself, and it isn't going away because a few proud-to-be-scantily-clad women walk together and hold signs.

You don't have to convince me that rape is horrific, and should be stopped.
Marches by women holding 'proud slut' signs aren't the solution. At all.

Ah generation x and its defeatist belief nothing you do or say will ever matter so why bother. The age where people stood up for what they believed in tragically over. Now is the age of sit on your ass and whine about it.