'Slut' Parade

[zeldagirl]

Speaking as a man how a woman dresses is irrelevant to how she ought to be treated by a man, and in no way does her manner of dress excuse the behaviour of boys.

I agree, I honestly do. But if there are steps a person can take to protect themselves, and they choose not to take them, there's a lesson in that too.

It's like knowing you're going in a live fire area and refusing to wear kevlar body armour: its not your fault if someone else shoots you, but you still bear some responsibility for not having properly protected yourself.

I think we as a society needs to change how we view women as being victims of crimes. The onus is on women to "protect themselves" always...despite the fact that men are actually more like to be victims of most violent crimes except rape: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States


Yet, we don't teach men to dress in a way that 'protects' them from attack. We don't teach men to always walk with friends, or to not drink at night.


And let's take this one step farther - let's envision a society in which we don't teach women to protect themselves from rape, but we teach men to protect themselves from RAPING WOMEN. Statistics show that men who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol are more likely to rape. So let's change the script to "men, don't drink or do drugs, you may be more likely to rape someone."

Our society is very much a reactive society to rape. We need to be more preventative. The responsibility to prevent rape should NOT be put on the victims of rape.

That's not to say that women should not take self-defense or prepare herself for situations. I'm not naive to think that. But it saddens me that we only look at rape prevention from a potential victim's point of view.



(this isn't necessarily a rant against you, but your point provided a good segue)

 

[AgentNein]

Snip

The fun part of statistical evidence is that it helps us cast light on supposed "common sense". Which a lot of the time turns out to be flawed.

Snip

Maaaan, you still here? Kudos, I don't know if I have the energy anymore. I feel like Sisyphus trying to push that dumbass boulder up the stupid hill.

 

[blazedart]

I agree that rape is wrong and that women can wear whatever they want, but I'm just putting this out what if one of these women decide to go out with a skirt and no panties on what would you think about that?

How would I know they this hypothetical woman isn't wearing panties?

maybe a gust of wind or she walks up some stairs

 

[maninahat]

Well, that's strange. I could've sworn we were discussing the role of sexy clothes vs. non-sexy clothes in causing rape. That's fairly simple. If you add in dangerous situations, drunkenness, night, being alone, and we're suddenly talking about something much different than with we started with.

I am arguing that dress does factor into rape as well as, the night, being alone etc. You are claiming that it has no influence at all. Whilst I concede that in the majority of circumstances it doesn't (at home with familiar people), I think it does in the minority of cases involving strangers in outdoor/public settings.

Do I need to provide statistics to prove that a woman is far less likely to be raped whilst isolated on a desert Island, or can you at least take that for granted?

Depends. Is there anyone else on it?

No, she is isolated. In other-words, it is physically impossible for her to be raped by someone, and statistics aren't necessary to illustrate that fact.

Some assumptions can be safely made without research. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ7J7UjsRqg]

Which does not mean that all of them can. The assumption that women who dress sexily are at higher risk for rape is not borne out by the statistics, and it is based on an assumption of rape psychology(ie: rape is about sex) that is itself false.

Whilst rape is primarily about anger and power, sexual gratification is usually an element as well. Also, I'm only asking you to accept some assumptions, not all of them. In fact, I am only asking you to accept a couple which I feel are reasonable to make.

Is it much of a stretch to assume a rapist is less likely to attack a woman who is among a group of people? Or that he is less likely, on proposing to a woman at a club, to try to take advantage of her if she is sober and clearheaded? Finally, is it too much to guess that a rapist might be more attracted to a sexy looking woman?

Nope. However, without any actual evidence, they are just assumptions, and should not be given the same weight as actual arguments supported by evidence.[/quote]
Perhaps, but in light of the lack of studies into whether dress is a specific factor, I'm afraid that assumptions are all we have. Pointing out that clothing doesn't statistically factor into the majority of rapes doesn't deny that it can be a factor at all in some circumstances. For that reason, we are on a level playing field in terms of accuracy: you don't have definitive evidence to prove that clothing definitely isn't a factor, and I don't have definitive evidence that it is.

Also, don't most women in a nightclub dress sexily anyway?

True. Most women though are also keep aware of the men around them when they go out. They acknowledge the risk.

 

[maninahat]

Snip

The fun part of statistical evidence is that it helps us cast light on supposed "common sense". Which a lot of the time turns out to be flawed.

It can also be misused to draw false conclusions by treating correlations as causation. Without someone going to the trouble of providing context, a statistic can be as misleading as an flawed common sense. In the absence of statistical proof, one can only rely on anecdotal evidence and observation. That doesn't mean the common sense is wrong; it just means that it can be wrong.

 

[Yokai]

It's a great idea in theory, and I certainly support the notion that you should be able to wear what you want, but what exactly is this protest going to help? I'm pretty sure rapists don't pay attention to activism.

 

[SmilingKitsune]

People can dress however they damn well please, freedom of expression and all that.
I don't think the negative use of the word "slut" will disappear that easily though.

 

[xdiesp]

Fact: getting drunk contributes far more to being raped than your slutty dress.

 

[LondonBeer]

You completely missed the point. The parade was to support rape victims and tear down the whole "she dressed like a slut, she was asking for it" stance.

"Just because I look hungry doesn't mean I want random people showing sausages down my throat".

but if dressing like a slut increases your chances of getting raped and you don't want to get raped, then it's pretty obvious to not dress like a slut right?

and if i were a homeless person and was very hungry, i wouldn't mind random people giving me food. the metaphor isn't really as applicable.

You've twisted the metaphor. Being very hungry and looking hungry are completely different things. Just like dressing like a slut doesn't mean you want to get raped.

yes, i agree about the dressing part, in a perfect world everyone should be able to wear whatever they want. but if it actively increases your chances of getting raped by doing so, then it's a pretty small and easy step to wear something else instead. keep the sexy stuff at home for your partner.

How dare you. Rape is not about sex. Rape is about assault. How the woman dresses or does not dress has nothing to do with it. Fucking is not the fucking point. Don't you dare blame the victim of a crime for the actions of the criminal.

EDIT: suggesting that the manner of dress or the actions of the victim of a rape is the cause of the rape - even if only partially - is also to suggest that the rapist would be a fine, upstanding individual were it not for the woman's state of dress. It is to suggest that your house would not have been burglarized if not for your desire to have nice things. It is to suggest that the victim of murder would not have been murdered were it not for his desire to be alive.

ah internet, when will you ever learn to read?

if dressing like a slut increases your chances of getting raped

As people have told you, it doesn't. When will you learn to read?

then why would girls hold a slut parade as protest that women should be able to wear whatever they like without fear of getting raped?
did you even read the article?

and still you didn't READ. IF. IF it does, THEN.

High five dude . Agree & isnt it sad so few people can follow a logical arguement.

I've been leaving a few minor logical holes in my posts and waiting for you to notice. You still haven't.

So your trolling since thats an admission of deliberately inflaming an argument by omission ?

 

[Tanner The Monotone]

Does anyone else find this type of behavior ridiculous and shows how warped/hedonistic parts of Western society is becoming?

Nope, I don't see why it should be socially acceptable for men to sleep around, yet if a women does they're a "slut" or a "slag".

It's called a man-whore

 

[SillyBear]

People can dress however they damn well please, freedom of expression and all that.

No one is even questioning that. This is about what should happen when people respond violently to freedom of expression. Lots of people do, especially in lower socioeconomic areas.

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

 

[Altorin]

our world is too prude. Everyone likes sex, but discussing sex, or god forbid admitting you like sex makes you some sort of degenerate. I've finally gotten over some of my own sexual hurdles, I see this as it is, basically people who are struggling with their own sexual problems and are overemphasizing their sexual freedom. Which is fine, it's a phase, and it's also an IMPORTANT phase.

 

[Trolldor]

fine by me, remember "to each his own." Sorry if i like to follow societal norms instead of rebelling against it.

There is a distinct irony in you using posting that bearing the name and likeness of a gunslinging priest.

lol ah you caught me good sir! I follow societal norms in the outward appearance only

Lets just say i don't go getting the wrong kind of attention

I am reminded of Dave Chappelle's skit on a whore's uniform.

i don't mine them dressing to they way they do so long as they don't object to me treating them like a whore.

Meaning you walk up to them and ask how much for the night?

well you cant be that direct as soliciting is quite illegal, but yes more or less. Dont be mad if you get treated that way is all im saying.

Then you can't object to me treating you as I see fit based on what I think of you, no matter how insulting it might be.

if how im dress lets you think that, of course not. I was asking for it

Oh, that's not only what I'm going to judge you on.
Maybe I just don't like the way you walk. Or the sound of your voice. Maybe you have a lisp.
I love judging people for arbitrary reasons and taking a high road for it.

fine by me, remember "to each his own." Sorry if i like to follow societal norms instead of rebelling against it.

I know man! Aren't societal norms just the greatest?

Girl on the left is such a slut, right?

and exactly what is wrong with what the woman on the right is wearing compared to what the women on the left is wearing? Or the simple fact that they following their social norms has any bearing on how you live your life or your particular sensibilities?

you must live in a pretty idealized world if you think strangers don't pass judgement on you based solely on your outward appearance. Do you know what a first impression is?

You can dress as a skank if you want, and i'm all for it. But to believe any stranger will treat you as a classy lady doing so is pure naivete. I do believe in never judge a book by its cover, but if the cover is a naked woman, i'm going to expect it to have some naked women inside the book too.

watch the dave chappelle skit will ya?

I've seen it,I was unimpressed when I was teenager and I'm unimpressed by it now.
I've seen funnier, more intelligent ideas expressed by wood rot.
You must live in a fairly narrow world if you presume that your personal opinion is a 'societal norm'. I disagree with you, so do many other people on this thread. How many other people might we find in your society who disagree with you?
I find it hilarious that you assume your judgement should just be accepted.

Oh, and you completely failed to understand the point of the image, which doesn't surprise me.

at this point i've already lost track of what tangent your on but please enlighten me, what is the point of the image? and what does it have to do with what i originally said about sluts and there choice of clothing.

i really thought my message was very simple.

You want to dress like a slut, i'll assume and treat you like a slut. you don't want that kind of attention, don't dress like a slut/whore/skank.

exactly y is that such a foreign concept to you?

i'll repeat this a third time, I'm completely fine with how anyone, including you, perceives me. if i get attention that i don't want, i'll correct it. I don't just keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. I believe they call that insanity.

end of the day you and i have differing opinions, that is excellent, because to each his own [http://www.wisegeek.com/what-does-to-each-his-own-mean.htm]

How old are you? Cause that might help me make sense of your complete inability to grasp a simple image.

Right, so, the image is a fairly blatantly obvious attempt to point out the absurdity of applying a subjective value as an objective fact, which is what you are doing.
But that might have been a little confusing so let's simplify it:

Just because you think she looks slutty, it doesn't mean she is. How you think she looks doesn't mean that's how she does look. What you deem slutty I could deem fine, just as in the image above the girl in the modest sun dress is 'slutty' in the kind of cultre that thinks the Burqa is modest.
If "to each his own" then stop forcing your opinions and attitudes on women, or do they not qualify for your statement because they are women?
Do you not see the ridiculous hypocrisy you're practicing?

 

[cobra_ky]

People can dress however they damn well please, freedom of expression and all that.

No one is even questioning that. This is about what should happen when people respond violently to freedom of expression. Lots of people do, especially in lower socioeconomic areas.

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

here's the argument you missed: "Revealing clothing is not a significant factor in the vast majority of rape cases. Focusing on women's clothing diverts attention away from the real causes of rape, which include things like poor decisions made under the influence of alcohol, and the misguided, obsolete view society has of female sexuality."

 

[powell86]

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

Who let the voice of reason to enter here??? OMGWTFBBQ!

Cookie for you sir.

On topic: I think I am more of a realist person. But to be frank, I think most of the idealistic people are aware of the realist stand. I think the best course of action is actually doing both. Is like we should be aware of reality, but fight towards the idealistic cause.

 

[Dags90]

here's the argument you missed: "Revealing clothing is not a significant factor in the vast majority of rape cases. Focusing on women's clothing diverts attention away from the real causes of rape, which include things like poor decisions made under the influence of alcohol, and the misguided, obsolete view society has of female sexuality."

Indeed, reinstating Prohibition would do more to dissuade rape (and violent crime in general) than caring about women's clothing. Which is really my main point. If you really care about rape so much as to care what women are wearing, you should have many other bigger priorities.

 

[powell86]

here's the argument you missed: "Revealing clothing is not a significant factor in the vast majority of rape cases. Focusing on women's clothing diverts attention away from the real causes of rape, which include things like poor decisions made under the influence of alcohol, and the misguided, obsolete view society has of female sexuality."

Hmmm that is certainly true.

May I pose another hypothesis? Perhaps women who tend to dress like a "slut" with a "I can do whatever I like" attitude tend to make bad decisions? E.g. drugs, go to shady areas to make out, accepting drinks from strangers etc.

However, I'm not condoning rape and neither am I saying that the "slut" deserves it. Rather, perhaps like what cobra_ky has mentioned, clothes shouldn't even be part of the equation at all.
In fact, people in Muslim countries are getting raped and they cover every part of their bodies.

 

[Trolldor]

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

Who let the voice of reason to enter here??? OMGWTFBBQ!

Cookie for you sir.

On topic: I think I am more of a realist person. But to be frank, I think most of the idealistic people are aware of the realist stand. I think the best course of action is actually doing both. Is like we should be aware of reality, but fight towards the idealistic cause.

You're a realist huh?
Then you acknowledge that the way a woman dresses is not a factor in rape cases?

 

[Jumplion]

People can dress however they damn well please, freedom of expression and all that.

No one is even questioning that. This is about what should happen when people respond violently to freedom of expression. Lots of people do, especially in lower socioeconomic areas.

Looking at the thread, there are two arguments here.

Idealist: "I know rape is happening but we have to keep expressing the importance of acceptance and freedom of expression. It doesn't matter if girls are targeted whilst wearing certain types of clothing, they have a right to wear it and we should solely concentrate on the rapist, not the victim."

Realist: "Rape happens. It is always going to happen and it always will happen so the best plan is to educate people on how best to avoid it. If that means urging girls to wear less revealing clothing in dangerous areas, then so be it. People's perception of other people counts for a lot. Like it or not, it's the world we live in."

See, there's a difference between saying "We should educate people, which could mean urging them to wear more decent clothing" and "You wouldn't have gotten raped if you didn't dress like a slut," which is what the police officer who started all of this said.

I'm all for promoting education on rape and methods of preventing and/or dealing with it. A factor can be to wear less revealing clothing, though as brought up multiple times that is not a primary factor in rape. However, you should never say "If you weren't wearing slutty clothing you wouldn't have been raped" because that is not educating, that is demeaning, disgusting, and blaming the victim.

If women want to wear more provocative clothing, so be it. It's their choice in what to wear. But even if they do wear revealing clothing and get raped, that doesn't call for calling them "sluts" or "whores" because they were unfortunate enough to get in that situation. Educate people, don't demean them.

 

[cobra_ky]

Indeed, reinstating Prohibition would do more to dissuade rape (and violent crime in general) than caring about women's clothing. Which is really my main point. If you really care about rape so much as to care what women are wearing, you should have many other bigger priorities.

Actually i seem to recall Prohibition encouraging a great deal of (organized) violent crime. But generally speaking i think you are correct.