Snipers viable still in Xcom 2? Also general strategy talk

[The_Darkness]

Ah, that's pretty much what I do anyway, just minus the "intentionally using the ranger as scout". Usually my sniper is the first to spot roaming pods, as I put him at elevation. My usual tactic is Kill Zone the sniper, and have everyone else on Overwatch, except for one person, who pops the pod with a blaster shot (i usually don't roll with grenades much, usually rock augmented ammo and a nano-vest), and then I watch all the overwatch trigger and fry the scrabbling enemies. Overwatch is the primary aspect of most of my tactics, and it's worked just fine for XCOM EU/EW, and XCOM 2. I don't come under zero enemy fire with this method, but the fights almost always go my way with minimal injury. Though I usually run 2 specialists with the medic tree, and upgraded medikits so I've got like 40 hp worth of healing to toss around as needed. I usually end up with 1-2 people gravely injured, but they're usually rangers or specialists, and i've got spares of those to fill the ranks while they heal.

While units on OW have no accuracy penalty in concealment, they do out of concealment, and it's quite steep (-30% I believe). OW traps are the best way to handle early encounters when you have literally no other tools. Once you have a few tools, using OW outside of Kill Zone or the very rare super-OW specialist is kind of meh. You're just taking a lot of low accuracy shots and surrendering CONTROL to do it. CONTROL is the most important element of any battle. Can't use grenades on OW. Can't set up high crit flanks on OW. Can't hack or mind control on OW. Can't flash bang or drop a mimic beacon. Can't use combat protocol for assured damage. Can't strip cover to optimize a shot. In almost all situations past the very early game, taking overwatch shots is one of your worst available options. The only reason Kill Zone is so good is that it fires on everyone and Snipers with aim PCS, scopes, hunker, etc usually have such ridiculously high accuracy they don't miss.

Don't write off lategame overwatch traps entirely

There's a hidden strength to KillZone - it'll activate even if you're in concealment. This allows you to break concealment on the enemy turn - pulling of an overwatch trap and then following it up with controlled shots on your own turn, all before the enemy has a chance to shoot back. Between an entire squad on overwatch AND an entire turn of controlled fire, most alien pods are significantly depleted by the time they get a chance to fire. (Note that the aliens will never fire on the turn that they activate - the only exception to this rule is if they activated because they discovered some concealed troops.)

This is also how I find overwatch useful in the lategame - trying to set things up such that the enemy activates on their own turn, getting hit by a round of overwatch, and then by a round of controlled fire, before they have any chance to respond. Killzone from concealment is one way of doing this. Phantom Rangers paired with a Longwatch Sniper is another. Proximity mines are a third method - though it also needs a phantom ranger or a battle scanner so you know where to set the mine. (A warning though - Proximity mines seem to be slightly bugged at the moment. If your entire squad is currently in concealment, only the first enemy to move will take damage from the mine.)

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Don't write off lategame overwatch traps entirely

There's a hidden strength to KillZone - it'll activate even if you're in concealment. This allows you to break concealment on the enemy turn - pulling of an overwatch trap and then following it up with controlled shots on your own turn, all before the enemy has a chance to shoot back. Between an entire squad on overwatch AND an entire turn of controlled fire, most alien pods are significantly depleted by the time they get a chance to fire. (Note that the aliens will never fire on the turn that they activate - the only exception to this rule is if they activated because they discovered some concealed troops.)

This is also how I find overwatch useful in the lategame - trying to set things up such that the enemy activates on their own turn, getting hit by a round of overwatch, and then by a round of controlled fire, before they have any chance to respond. Killzone from concealment is one way of doing this. Phantom Rangers paired with a Longwatch Sniper is another. Proximity mines are a third method - though it also needs a phantom ranger or a battle scanner so you know where to set the mine. (A warning though - Proximity mines seem to be slightly bugged at the moment. If your entire squad is currently in concealment, only the first enemy to move will take damage from the mine.)

Enemy activated OW traps are obviously the gold standard, but they can be pretty tough to set up when working on tight time schedules, at least since the Beaglerush manuever was nerfed. Once you have the tools, you can clean up 1-2 pods in a single round of combat anyway, making enemy triggered OW traps a luxury. I found it more expeditious to just blast through maps the old fashioned way.

 

[happyninja42]

Ah, that's pretty much what I do anyway, just minus the "intentionally using the ranger as scout". Usually my sniper is the first to spot roaming pods, as I put him at elevation. My usual tactic is Kill Zone the sniper, and have everyone else on Overwatch, except for one person, who pops the pod with a blaster shot (i usually don't roll with grenades much, usually rock augmented ammo and a nano-vest), and then I watch all the overwatch trigger and fry the scrabbling enemies. Overwatch is the primary aspect of most of my tactics, and it's worked just fine for XCOM EU/EW, and XCOM 2. I don't come under zero enemy fire with this method, but the fights almost always go my way with minimal injury. Though I usually run 2 specialists with the medic tree, and upgraded medikits so I've got like 40 hp worth of healing to toss around as needed. I usually end up with 1-2 people gravely injured, but they're usually rangers or specialists, and i've got spares of those to fill the ranks while they heal.

While units on OW have no accuracy penalty in concealment, they do out of concealment, and it's quite steep (-30% I believe). OW traps are the best way to handle early encounters when you have literally no other tools. Once you have a few tools, using OW outside of Kill Zone or the very rare super-OW specialist is kind of meh. You're just taking a lot of low accuracy shots and surrendering CONTROL to do it. CONTROL is the most important element of any battle. Can't use grenades on OW. Can't set up high crit flanks on OW. Can't hack or mind control on OW. Can't flash bang or drop a mimic beacon. Can't use combat protocol for assured damage. Can't strip cover to optimize a shot. In almost all situations past the very early game, taking overwatch shots is one of your worst available options. The only reason Kill Zone is so good is that it fires on everyone and Snipers with aim PCS, scopes, hunker, etc usually have such ridiculously high accuracy they don't miss.

Medics can be nice, and I recommend having one medic, but generally speaking the other tree is vastly superior. The ideal XCOM team is proactive, not reactive, and the RNG injury timers make even slight grazes potentially devastating, particularly early in the campaign, so you're always working to end missions woundless, making half of your medic's skill set redundant. Arguably the worst/most situational of the eight "classes", tied with blade Rangers. Gun-focused Grenadiers could be down there too, what with their propensity for setting themselves on fire and the opportunity cost inflicted by not just going for an explosives build.

Fair enough, I just haven't had much issue with the OW RNG in most cases. I usually drop that first squad with the OW powerslam just fine. After that it's usually direct attacks per round. I might have some OW attacks later, but it's usually pointless because I could just take a direct shot. I was mostly referring to the initial ambush scenario. I still don't find grenades that useful, or at least not useful enough to have everyone rocking one. Usually I have 1 grenadier who will blow up stuff I need blown up, that's about it though. See, having this conversation has made me actually consider my typical strategy, and I might've mis-represented it before when I said I primarily use OW, or implied it. I use it heavily in the initial ambush yes, but after that, not as much. I'm usually taking regular shots at medium range with rifles, I don't really like shotguns. I don't actively try flanking to be honest, as I don't like leaving my troops exposed when they move into a location to capitalize on a flanking. I usually just fire with whatever cover the enemy's got, or blow it up with my grenadier. I almost exclusively focus on things that give +Aim for pretty much everyone, so the percentages are usually pretty high. I don't always hit sure, but I do hit in most cases.

 

[F-I-D-O]

Snipers aren't OP anymore - they got balanced in line with the other classes.
Gunslinger is great, especially with bluescreen or status ammo, able to take out sectopods almost single handedly, or guaranteeing damage + DoT on every visible enemy. Gunslingers are almost guaranteed spots on escort/defuse missions for me.
I didn't upgrade to mag snipers in my commander run, instead using a Gunslinger to carry that damage focus forward into plasma. That said, I had to buy plasma lances as soon as I could, because the lack of a reliable high-damage long-range weapon hurts.
The squadsight rebalance makes snipers initially weaker, but the aim debuff isn't huge. Keeping pace isn't too difficult even on timed missions imo.
A revealed long watch sniper and stealth ranger work wonders for scouting out and popping pods on infiltration missions though, letting you ambush enemies and prevent them from getting turns, even at distance while the scout stays in stealth.
Snipers have just fit more into a niche. They work best when paired too offset their natural downsides, but get ridiculous combo potential in the late game. But in the early game, they definitely seem weak as you just have a longer range assault rifle.
I usually go: 1 Ranger stealth, 1 Hack support, 1 grenadier, 1 sniper with two floating slots (one with Psy). A blacksite mission usually brings along a medic + grenadier. Timed missions/retaliations have a gunslinger, second grenadier, and a second ranger.

Medics are the only ones who seem out of place to me. Getting shot kills early game, and shouldn't happen late game. Enemies just do too much damage, and patching up doesn't reduce injury delay. I only bring them on long missions as a backup, but find myself wishing I had a better fighter and ending missions without using medkits.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Oh and Happyninja, yeah shapeshifters only seem to trigger on stealth rangers when they stand in the little rescue circle and they do get caught unfortunatly. Im not 100% sure about that but it doesnt seem to trigger on LOS like normal guys. I had a weird one where a civ was on one side of a doorway and my stealth ranger was on the other but inside of the circle and the civ wouldnt be rescued. So I went outside with them and they transformed on me.

Seems like I should give snipers another chance by the sounds of things. Maybe I just got biased because my sniper in my A team died pretty early, and after that I never had a sniper who lived long enough or got left behind before I gave up on them. He was a cool sniper. A Israeli in a hood who according to his little recruitment description may have been a criminal. I imagined him as a loner with a creepy 'is this guy a psychopath?' Theme.

Im feeling like I should start pistol tree for the early game and then respec him later.

I am still Ranger mad though. Slicey slicey.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

Seems like I should give snipers another chance by the sounds of things. Maybe I just got biased because my sniper in my A team died pretty early, and after that I never had a sniper who lived long enough or got left behind before I gave up on them. He was a cool sniper. A Israeli in a hood who according to his little recruitment description may have been a criminal. I imagined him as a loner with a creepy 'is this guy a psychopath?' Theme.

Im feeling like I should start pistol tree for the early game and then respec him later.

I am still Ranger mad though. Slicey slicey.

You know, you can just recruit high level sniper for 200 supplies later down the line. No need to drag a useless missing machine uness you absolutely have to. Leveling takes abysmal amount of time.

 

[Silverbeard]

Specialists are there to hack Sectopods and look pretty.

Let's not forget hack rewards! It's basically impossible for a non-specialist to get any of those (even with an upgraded skulljack) and once one equips a captain rank specialist with said upgraded skulljack one can generally manage 90% chances on second tier rewards.
My most successful XCOM 2 campaign began with my specialist managing the 'reduced scanning times' bonus on the first guerilla op in April. I swept up enough supplies, bonus Avenger power and resistance contacts to turn that run into a cakewalk.
Combat protocol is also a life saver in the early game when your grenadier manages to knock 5 HP of that one stun lancer but then everyone else misses their 70% shots. Great advantage to be able to circle that target and say 'this one's definitely dead'. With third-tier GREMLINS one can knock out undead Andromedons, which is great because it frees up the rest of the squad to shoot other, squishier targets.

On topic: Think of squadsight snipers as enemy eliminators and gunslingers as kill facilitators. A gunslinger might not kill many enemies but they're the only class outside of grenadiers who can damage multiple foes on the same turn early in the game- which can set up enemies quite well for the rest of your grunts. Equip them with AP ammo so they can push through all that pesky enemy armour and you're good to go!
Squadsight snipers need to be positioned effectively to work. I never bring them on VIP extraction/kidnap missions because that's not an environment that they're suited to. They do much better on guerilla ops and terror missions and especially well against enemies that don't use cover- such enemies generally have massive HP bars (berserkers come to mind) and they're ideally dealt with by using the high damage attacks a sniper offers. Plus the coverless foe does somewhat offset the aim penalty of squadsight.
In particular, it's always a good idea to set your sniper to the flank of your main advance rather than behind your main line. For example, if I start a mission of the bottom left of a map, I'll move my sniper as far to the bottom right of the map as I can rather than leaving them near the insertion zone. This way, when my main advance meets the enemy there's a greater chance that my squadsight sniper will get flanking shots on the targets as my grunts dance around like hellions and thus benefit from the improved accuracy.
In short: Position, position, position!

 

[omega 616]

I actually never thought of this. I turned off the timers 'cos one or two timed missions (like EU) was good 'cos usually it was the slow and steady approach, like it should be but then you had a bomb threat and you had to get your skates on ... EW pushed that even more with meld, which again I thought was a great move, you can move your butt and get better upgrades or you can play safe and make sure people live.

This game decided that balance was shit and it was like every mission had to be done in 8 turns, which I think was a major draw back, so I went to the work shop and off they went.

So on topic, I would very much ditch them. The snipers are great for staying back and blowing aliens away but if you're always marching them forward, they don't really live up to their potential. I would rather have an extra of any other class (probably a grenadier 'cos sectopods and gate keepers aren't fun) than some guy running around doing 5 max damage with a hand gun.

 

[happyninja42]

I actually never thought of this. I turned off the timers 'cos one or two timed missions (like EU) was good 'cos usually it was the slow and steady approach, like it should be but then you had a bomb threat and you had to get your skates on ... EW pushed that even more with meld, which again I thought was a great move, you can move your butt and get better upgrades or you can play safe and make sure people live.

This game decided that balance was shit and it was like every mission had to be done in 8 turns, which I think was a major draw back, so I went to the work shop and off they went.

So on topic, I would very much ditch them. The snipers are great for staying back and blowing aliens away but if you're always marching them forward, they don't really live up to their potential. I would rather have an extra of any other class (probably a grenadier 'cos sectopods and gate keepers aren't fun) than some guy running around doing 5 max damage with a hand gun.

...then build them for long range combat? Seriously I don't get this "they have to move so they suck" mentality in this thread. They have insane range, you rarely have to move them. Just plop them down in a nest and let them blast things from 300 yards away. My snipers consistently are getting the most kills, and the most damage dealt on my missions, while the rest of the crew just mops up trash. I really don't see how people think they aren't useful in XCOM 2.

 

[DoPo]

This game decided that balance was shit and it was like every mission had to be done in 8 turns

8 turn missions require you to achieve the objective in that time, not finish the mission. The objectives are to hack something or destroy a relay both of which are really fast to do - hacking, especially, is a piece of cake as you can save 1-2 turns of walking if you bring a specialist. You then have all the time in the world to kill off the remaining pods.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

This game decided that balance was shit and it was like every mission had to be done in 8 turns, which I think was a major draw back, so I went to the work shop and off they went.

So on topic, I would very much ditch them. The snipers are great for staying back and blowing aliens away but if you're always marching them forward, they don't really live up to their potential. I would rather have an extra of any other class (probably a grenadier 'cos sectopods and gate keepers aren't fun) than some guy running around doing 5 max damage with a hand gun.

I can't speak as to your preferences, but this is crazy off-kilter.

People might not LIKE timers, but the game is hysterically easy without any time pressure. XCOM got a LOT of tools to help them deal with it, and removing it makes standard missions trivial. Despite having upwards of 40 enemies with + enemies per pod, Blacksite missions were the easiest missions for me. Why? No time pressure. Can wait out cooldowns, scout carefully, set up traps, break down pods methodically. Easy. Easy. Easy. Removing timers entirely is roughly equivalent to setting the game to the easiest setting.

As for Snipers...the 200+ kills my last Sniper got would like a word. You wildly underestimate them, and gunslingers as well (although they are the lesser sniper...Faceoff is a great ability but Serial obsoletes it).

 

[omega 616]

I like how the last 3 comments on this thread are all at me ...

snip

Well I disabled them and still had trouble, I am not a great xcom player, I was on the second easiest difficulty, timers totally off and still save scummed a bit (mostly on hack objectives 'cos I think they are bullshit!).

I used snipers like I did in EU, sat them at the back and used squad sight to massacre fools, especially with my sniper that had the largest clip size on the best sniper and used that kill zone skill. Taking out fools like they were wheat!

if I did have the timers on, I would rather have the shredding ability of a grenadier to deal with mecs and stuff, than a sniper but maybe that's me being a noob

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well I disabled them and still had trouble, I am not a great xcom player, I was on the second easiest difficulty, timers totally off and still save scummed a bit (mostly on hack objectives 'cos I think they are bullshit!).

I used snipers like I did in EU, sat them at the back and used squad sight to massacre fools, especially with my sniper that had the largest clip size on the best sniper and used that kill zone skill. Taking out fools like they were wheat!

if I did have the timers on, I would rather have the shredding ability of a grenadier to deal with mecs and stuff, than a sniper but maybe that's me being a noob

I should be clear...I am totally fine with people of differing skill levels playing the game. By all means, nerf it as low as you like, set it as high as you like...it's your game, and it should be fun. The point of debate was your comment about BALANCE, not whether you prefer an easier game. The game is actually quite well balanced with the turn timers, as onerous as they might initially seem. Turning them up even slightly makes the game wildly easier. I recommend experimenting with slightly longer timers and seeing if you can't adjust to them. Just like something as small as adding a single HP to an Advent Soldier can have a huge impact on early game balance, removing something as core to the experience as "timers" trivializes things more than you might expect.

I've actually found Snipers to be even more effective here than in EU/EW. Maybe it's just me. Killing machines. Grenadiers need the first nerf, but Snipers are close behind.

 

[omega 616]

Well I disabled them and still had trouble, I am not a great xcom player, I was on the second easiest difficulty, timers totally off and still save scummed a bit (mostly on hack objectives 'cos I think they are bullshit!).

I used snipers like I did in EU, sat them at the back and used squad sight to massacre fools, especially with my sniper that had the largest clip size on the best sniper and used that kill zone skill. Taking out fools like they were wheat!

if I did have the timers on, I would rather have the shredding ability of a grenadier to deal with mecs and stuff, than a sniper but maybe that's me being a noob

I should be clear...I am totally fine with people of differing skill levels playing the game. By all means, nerf it as low as you like, set it as high as you like...it's your game, and it should be fun. The point of debate was your comment about BALANCE, not whether you prefer an easier game. The game is actually quite well balanced with the turn timers, as onerous as they might initially seem. Turning them up even slightly makes the game wildly easier. I recommend experimenting with slightly longer timers and seeing if you can't adjust to them. Just like something as small as adding a single HP to an Advent Soldier can have a huge impact on early game balance, removing something as core to the experience as "timers" trivializes things more than you might expect.

I've actually found Snipers to be even more effective here than in EU/EW. Maybe it's just me. Killing machines. Grenadiers need the first nerf, but Snipers are close behind.

In all honesty, from my anecdotal experiences, an extra hit point or two wouldn't make any difference 'cos the amount of times I have left guys with 1 HP is insane! I would rather them have 2 or 3, so I don't feel like I am wasting a turn.

The way I see it is, the guy with 1 HP is just as dangerous as the guy with 2 or 3 and it will take one shot to kill them but at least with the 2 or 3 HP guys I don't feel like I wasting that turn but a 1 HP guy, can't I just get a free punch on him? Feel robbed by those guys.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

In all honesty, from my anecdotal experiences, an extra hit point or two wouldn't make any difference 'cos the amount of times I have left guys with 1 HP is insane! I would rather them have 2 or 3, so I don't feel like I am wasting a turn.

The way I see it is, the guy with 1 HP is just as dangerous as the guy with 2 or 3 and it will take one shot to kill them but at least with the 2 or 3 HP guys I don't feel like I wasting that turn but a 1 HP guy, can't I just get a free punch on him? Feel robbed by those guys.

That's WHY it makes a difference.

On Easy/Veteran, Advent Troops have 3 HP. Assault rifles do 3-5 damage. Grenades do 3-4 (but almost always 3, the chance to hit 4 is about 10%).

On Easy/Veteran, a hit will ALWAYS kill a trooper. A grenade can take out an entire pod of them.

On Commander+, a shot *might* kill a Trooper. A grenade will almost certainly only wound them. You go from being able to kill an entire pod with a single action to needing everyone working in concert. To say nothing of the lower accuracy levels.

This is why players are usually not the best arbiters of what makes for a "balanced" experience. Most of the new classes, weapon mods, etc on the workshop are ridiculously, wildly OP. Game-breaking in every respect. XCOM being a snowbally game, even a small advantage can rapidly spiral into a big one, and players like to give themselves big advantages.

 

[Nielas]

In all honesty, from my anecdotal experiences, an extra hit point or two wouldn't make any difference 'cos the amount of times I have left guys with 1 HP is insane! I would rather them have 2 or 3, so I don't feel like I am wasting a turn.

The way I see it is, the guy with 1 HP is just as dangerous as the guy with 2 or 3 and it will take one shot to kill them but at least with the 2 or 3 HP guys I don't feel like I wasting that turn but a 1 HP guy, can't I just get a free punch on him? Feel robbed by those guys.

That's WHY it makes a difference.

On Easy/Veteran, Advent Troops have 3 HP. Assault rifles do 3-5 damage. Grenades do 3-4 (but almost always 3, the chance to hit 4 is about 10%).

On Easy/Veteran, a hit will ALWAYS kill a trooper. A grenade can take out an entire pod of them.

On Commander+, a shot *might* kill a Trooper. A grenade will almost certainly only wound them. You go from being able to kill an entire pod with a single action to needing everyone working in concert. To say nothing of the lower accuracy levels.

This is why players are usually not the best arbiters of what makes for a "balanced" experience. Most of the new classes, weapon mods, etc on the workshop are ridiculously, wildly OP. Game-breaking in every respect. XCOM being a snowbally game, even a small advantage can rapidly spiral into a big one, and players like to give themselves big advantages.

In this game an opponent with 1 HP is just as dangerous as an opponent with full health. Increasing the health of a basic enemy by just 1 HP can have a serious effect on your tactics and cost you a lot of time in the timed missions. A sniper with Serial is amazing at cleaning up those baddies left with 1-2 health. A nightmare scenario is unloading everything you have at a sectopod and it still having 1 HP left so it can wreck your day on its turn.