So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[Ihateregistering1]

As long as you can cast white actors to play black characters, then vice versa is fine, too. Right?

Don't nod your head. The whole thing is dumb.

Now, realistically, if an asian guy actually plays... oh shit, I dunno, Arnold in the Different Strokes movie or white guy Static Shock in the Static Shock movie, people will lose their shit. You either cry "ZOMG RACISM!" at everything, or you do it at nothing, but let's not have a double standard. Remember when M.Night Shyamalikantmakeadecentmovietosavemylife made Avatar with zero asian actors? And everyone had a heart attack? What's wrong with casting characters as the ethnicity they're supposed to be? You wouldn't cast a white guy in Sydney Poitier's role in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, and you wouldn't cast a black guy as Hitler in the next WWII movie, just like you wouldn't strap a horn to a lion and call it a rhino. It's not racism, it's casting appropriate to the writing. If I write a character is hispanic, name him Miguel Alvarez, and set the whole movie in Ecuador, they'd be stupid to cast.... shit, I dunno, Ralphie May. Especially if he's supposed to be a thin, muscular gymnast.

OOooohh but isn't that Weightism?

No, it's not. Get your head out of your ass.

Honestly, all this PC crap has made people stupid. That's why the Muhammad Ali biopic is going to feature a female Asian midget as Ali, the critics will love it, and everyone else will complain how dumb it is that Howard Cosell is interviewing midget Lucy Liu.

Actually, they already did cast a white guy in Sidney Poitier's role when they made a remake (or reboot, or whatever) in a film called "Guess Who". In this one, Ashton Kutcher was the white boyfriend of a black woman and he had to go meet her family (with the disapproving dad played by Bernie Mac). Not a great movie, though I'll give them credit for being willing to do something different.

Basically agree with everything else you wrote, and I'd actually be far more willing to go see another Ali movie with Ali being played by a female Asian midget, that would be awesome.

 

[PeterMerkin69]

Uh ... yeah? "If you're going to cast a black person then you might as well cast a rock" is a racist statement, as well as an idiotic one. Unless you're talking about Dwayne Johnson AKA The Rock, in which case your statement is still idiotic.

No one's saying that because he's black, though. He could be Asian or a fat guy or a woman or, well, a stone poodle and the reaction would be the same. What they're--we're--really saying, albeit with the aforementioned hyperbole, is that if you change the character design that drastically you may as well change it to anything because it's no longer the character it's supposed to be. That's the full extent of it. The only way race necessarily enters into this particular example is because that's just what the change happens to be. If he were to be made of stone instead and people complained about that, you wouldn't actually be calling them rockists, would you? Well you might, but that wouldn't mean that they were, nor that they were making rockist statements.

Comic fans, in general, don't like change. People who want more of the things they like are generally disappointed when they don't get them. That's all that's happening here. And that's alright.

So now you're skirting around the issue of saying that black people are like dogs by saying, "But that's OK because I really like dogs!" Yup yup, still not racist at all, not even when you count the fact that the average dog has the IQ level of a two year-old and can be legally owned by a human being.

No, hon. You're twisting my intent to fit your own negative preconceptions, which is what I believe you were doing when you read the comment about the poodle. This was actually a cautionary tangent about the folly of mistaking your species for something more than it actually is. One mustn't forget oneself.

This is all basically just another version of the old "If we're going to let homosexuals marry then we may as well let people marry dogs!" argument, and it's just as disgusting.

You mean a slippery slope? Those are called slippery slope arguments. But that's not what I'm doing.

Man, you're learning all kinds of things from me today. That's awesome for you.

 

[CriticalMiss]

On a related note, would it be racist if Black Panther was played by a white man? He's historically a black character. If it's ok for a white hero to be race-swapped then it should be ok for a black one to become white too.

Except for the part where Black Panther is the king of an African nation and therefore his ethnicity is a wee bit important to his character.

There are more ethnicities in Africa than black, so he could be white (South African) or Arabic (Egypt, Morocco).

If people want to see more black/minority actors playing superheroes why not make some new ones that are non-white from the get go rather than changing existing ones? Why not make a Luke Cage film?

 

[SquidSponge]

Wow, hella touchy subject. OT, I think it's just a poor and unnecessary choice in casting that screws with the consistency of the lore. I mean, if you were looking for a, say, 54-year old, freakishly short North Korean transgender woman with a mole exactly 1 inch to the left of her nose the list of potential actresses isn't too long. In this case, however, the lore states that you're looking for a young white male, of which there are thousands of good candidates (and thousands more that are merely adequate). So why bother screwing around with the lore, regardless of whether the person's ethnicity is a major part of their character?

Sometimes a change of character can be refreshing. So why not try it? Having a black Nick Fury turned out to be pretty freaking awesome.

to be fair, Nick Fury is just Samuel L. Jackson playing Samuel L. Jackson, not Nick Fury. But yeah, he's pretty freaking great

No disagreement from me on that. It is just as you say it is. Luckily, he happens to suit it pretty fantastically. I would argue the same for Jack Nicholson's joker. It was just him doing what he always does, but it was still, in my opinion, a perfect fit.

OK, SLJ as Nick Fury did work (and How!) - from this example I'll concede the point that it can work. Unfortunately, I would still say it's generally a bad idea because as refreshing as it might be, it is still a fairly drastic change from the lore, which will inevitably anger a fair proportion of the long-term fans and lore-fiends.

I've also seen arguments to the effect of white -> black is fine but black -> white is not; this strikes me as absurd if we are trying to reach any reasonable attempt at equality, rather than just insincerely "making quotas". If ethnicity is not an integral part of the character, a truly equal view should be fully interchangeable, or allow not at all.

 

[Lightknight]

I just don't think race-flipping such a big character would be a good idea, regardless of which race he is.

That's probably the crux of the people complaining. For big fantastic 4 fans, this is like casting a supposedly historically accurate movie about Benjamin Franklin starring Don Cheadle as Benjamin himself or Jack Black as Frederick Douglass (not because Jack is a bad actor for serious roles, just because he's white and I'm thinking about Drunken History by Funny or Die for some reason...). People have a problem with that because those are established people with specific characteristics.

Now, I don't care about fantastic 4. From my frame of reference, Johny Storm is a human torch. The race isn't firm in my mind so I glance over articles like this without batting an eye. But for someone whose a fan, this is people messing with the characteristics of one of their heroes. Race is just the most physically obvious attribute.

Nick Fury worked because he's not a major character for most people. I'm sure there are some people out there who were shocked by it who were also just big Fury fans (as well as the run of the mill racists who were mad on the basis of race and not accuracy).

 

[Lightknight]

On a related note, would it be racist if Black Panther was played by a white man? He's historically a black character. If it's ok for a white hero to be race-swapped then it should be ok for a black one to become white too.

The answer to that is somewhat obvious. It's that minorities have been significantly under-represented by most forms of media, including comics. To replace one white character with a minority is not nearly as significant (proportionately) as replacing a minority character with a white character. On the surface of it, as I said earlier, we are being inconsistent in that we'd all be up in arms if John Stewart were cast as a white actor while we are calling people racist for resisting making a white character into a different race. That inconsistency doesn't mean that one action doesn't have a varying degree of gravitas than another. We should either be up in arms in both scenarios (and perhaps more up in arms for one than another) or not be up in arms at either.

So yes, if someone is ok with swapping one out for another, then they should be consistently ok with the reverse or they are actually expressing racism even if their agenda is counter-racism.

Like affirmative action, a law meant to impede society's racist hiring practices that then has the occasional effect of preventing a person from getting a job because they weren't born with the same skin or as the same sex of an individual the company needs to fill racial/sex quotas. A counter-racism bill that instead enforces it, albeit with quite valid intentions.

 

[Edguy]

Uh ... yeah? "If you're going to cast a black person then you might as well cast a rock" is a racist statement, as well as an idiotic one. Unless you're talking about Dwayne Johnson AKA The Rock, in which case your statement is still idiotic.

-

So now you're skirting around the issue of saying that black people are like dogs by saying, "But that's OK because I really like dogs!" Yup yup, still not racist at all, not even when you count the fact that the average dog has the IQ level of a two year-old and can be legally owned by a human being.

This is all basically just another version of the old "If we're going to let homosexuals marry then we may as well let people marry dogs!" argument, and it's just as disgusting.

There's a pretty disgusting amount of straw men in this post.

 

[Schadrach]

On a related note, would it be racist if Black Panther was played by a white man? He's historically a black character. If it's ok for a white hero to be race-swapped then it should be ok for a black one to become white too.

You *clearly* don't get it -- what race a character is is vitally important and must be held to canon as closely as possible, unless that character is white, white characters are permissible to be played by any race of actor. Anyone who disagrees with either of those concepts is a racist. Ironically, this sometimes extends to characters whose race is never clearly stated being the "wrong" race if enough of the audience expected that race to be not white (see Katniss in Hunger Games).

Note that "don't fuck with my canon" is racist if, and only if, the character being portrayed by the "wrong" race is a white character.

Personally, I like to consistently hold the "don't fuck with my canon" position all around. It's bad here, and it's bad what horrors they want to do to Akira. One of those isn't suddenly OK because in one case it's black actors playing white characters and in the other it's white actors playing Japanese characters (also WTF with the location change?!?). It'd be like Jean Grey being blonde. Or Storm being white.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Cracked had an article about this. Now, for the most part, I agree, this topic brings out racism like nobodies business, but...

Funny you mentioned Cracked because I came across an old article regarding "Old Timey Racist Themes Hollywood Won't Let Go" that made me realize a very important truth that all but guarantees Sue Storm will stay white:

If she were black, she and Reed Richards would be an interracial relationship.

If we're pissing and moaning now about Johnny Storm, do any of you honestly think Hollywood will chance something that, as far as that article points out, is still oddly taboo in this era? Granted, if they did go ahead with it, it would be pretty ground-breaking not just for superhero movies but mainstream movies in general.

that's why sue storm WILL stay white.
I want her to stay white, because I can't think of any black actresses (that hollywood would give the role to) that wouldn't suck as Sue Storm.
But then again, Sue Storm is so worthless maybe ignoring her established character is the way to go.

In fact, that's true of Reed Richards, too... hmmm

UPDATED CAST LIST:

Dude from Chronicle: Johnny Storm
Rosario Dawson: Sue Storm, now with actual competence!
Peter Weller: Reed Richards. Buckaroo rubberbanzai!
Bob Hoskins as the Thing. Because grizzled like a boss

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

No disagreement from me on that. It is just as you say it is. Luckily, he happens to suit it pretty fantastically. I would argue the same for Jack Nicholson's joker. It was just him doing what he always does, but it was still, in my opinion, a perfect fit.

I'm glad you agree: Jack Nicholson is a fucking supervillain that we successfully distracted from super-crime with a lucrative film career. Marvel, DC, PAY ATTENTION

 

[GonzoGamer]

My favorite bit on racism and comics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzbngA4_TaY

I remember when there were rumors of Will Smith playing Robin in the older Batman movies. I was like, sure, he's got the charisma for a part like that. I later found out it was supposed to be Marlon Waynes and was glad they didn't go with the "black guy."

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

On a related note, would it be racist if Black Panther was played by a white man? He's historically a black character. If it's ok for a white hero to be race-swapped then it should be ok for a black one to become white too.

You *clearly* don't get it -- what race a character is is vitally important and must be held to canon as closely as possible, unless that character is white, white characters are permissible to be played by any race of actor. Anyone who disagrees with either of those concepts is a racist. Ironically, this sometimes extends to characters whose race is never clearly stated being the "wrong" race if enough of the audience expected that race to be not white (see Katniss in Hunger Games).

Note that "don't fuck with my canon" is racist if, and only if, the character being portrayed by the "wrong" race is a white character.

Personally, I like to consistently hold the "don't fuck with my canon" position all around. It's bad here, and it's bad what horrors they want to do to Akira. One of those isn't suddenly OK because in one case it's black actors playing white characters and in the other it's white actors playing Japanese characters (also WTF with the location change?!?). It'd be like Jean Grey being blonde. Or Storm being white.

Black panther is kind of racist as shit anyway, you guys.

 

[Lilani]

do you see why we dont mess with characters who have been already established as cultural icons in respect whatever country they hail from? especially when they dont wear a mask to protect their identity? or have a freakin country in their name?

Hoping for a character's appearance to remain the same as it has in all source material is perfectly acceptable. We have seen before that fans DO complain when a tiny aspect is changed in a character so to do so here is no different; it is not racist, they simply want the character they have invested in to look as he always has. These fans are not racist, it is not as if they won't accept any character who is not white and demand for them all to be changed. Why can't the fans want the white characters to be white and the black characters to be black, without being branded as racist?

What it would be doing is changing a fundamental aspect of a classic character. It's like casting Superman as black. Would you really get cries of "racist" when people protest to a black superman? This kind of PC bullshit annoys me a lot. If a female actor wanted the role of a popular male character (lets say, Batman, Superman, or even Harry Potter), would we deem it sexism if it were denied? We wouldn't, or at least we shouldn't.

Equal opportunity is a good thing, but you can't expect someone incapable of fulfilling a particular role to fulfil a particular role.

I would like to direct you three and everyone else who feels this way to a post already written by an intelligent individual from page 12 who wrote what I was about to say word for word:

Don't know if anyone has already mentioned it, but claiming the 'source material should be adapted correctly' thing bugs me. Does anyone stop to think that virtually all the primary superhero characters are white? Do we think about the reasons behind that? These characters were created in times when no one would even think to make them different ethnicities, and if they did it would have been a maaasive deal. Sure there are a few exceptions to the rule, but for the most part these character's ethnicities were just unthought default choices, like a racial equivalent to heteronormativity (theres probably a word for it...).
The choice for caucasian characters was not a calculated decision, but just standard 'this is what heros look like'; a basic and unthinking reaction due to the general ideology of the times. So, claiming that 'we must be true to the source material' is simply supporting the general ideology of the 60's.
Do you really think if these characters were being created now that they'd all be white? The reason why people kick up a fuss nowadays when POC characters are cast as white in adaptations is because they are rare enough as is, without converting them to just more white characters (Think Last Airbender and the Inuit, Tibetan etc whitewashing. The diversity on the show was pretty cool and the movie decimated that).

Pretty much, if the source material is a product of a (intentionally or not) racist mindset, then why claim it as something that needs supporting and faithful adapting?

So, yeah. These characters weren't made white because the writers felt it was the best choice for their character. They were made white because the cultural climate of the day wouldn't have accepted anything different. So we have close to a century of iconic comic book heroes, almost all of whom in some way or another were designed with varying degrees of racism from the get-go. I'm not saying the fact that they are white is racist, however the fact that they couldn't have been anything else raises the question of if these comics were written today would ALL of them really have turned out white? And for those of you saying that it's a "fundamental aspect" of their character...what about being black conflicts with Johnny Storm's personality or backstory? It's one thing if his backstory involves being Amish or something, but as far as I know there is nothing quintessentially "white" about him.

FFS, I am the only one sick to death of the dark ages mentality that still pervades humanity? Gender issues, skin colour issues, sexuality issues... Jesus Titty-Fucking Christ, can we get over this bullshit already and start dealing with the things that actually matter, like climate change, poverty, governmental/corporate corruption and so on?

Fuck me sideways with an arm-full of rotting deckchairs, this kind of petty, distracting bollocks needs to fucking end already.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[magicmonkeybars]

Okay bear with me this might get controversial.
What if we made Johnny a black woman, Sue a black man and Dr Richards gay.
Reed and "Sue" can even get married again !
Now that's a reimagining for the 21st century.

 

[Zeraki]

As long as he does the part well, I'm fine with it. People made a big stink about Idris Elba playing Heimdall in Thor, yet he was one of the best things in the movie.

Although, I'd rather see the movie fall through and Marvel get the rights back from Fox(I'd love to have Doctor Doom and Galactus in the MCU).

 

[Chemical Alia]

My only connection to the Fantastic Four (not counting German rappers) was some Hanna Barbera cartoon thing that was on when I was a kid. I'm going to assume that the comic books are way more interesting and meaningful than that, though, and that's why people are having such opinions about this.

But I still can't see why this is even a big deal, like at all. Trying to put it in perspective, I've always been a big fan of Star Wars. But if Han Solo were re-imagined as a black dude because a black actor was an amazing fit, my first thought is "who cares"? It seems like such a trivial aspect of a re-imagined character.

Sort of like how Dennis Hopper was the best King Koopa ever, I think we can all agree on that.

 

[Edguy]

How is any of that a straw man when the poster literally said that if a black actor can be cast in the role then they might as well cast a poodle? I mean, he literally said that, I'm not putting words in his mouth.

-

I know you have to penetrate some shocking grammar and spelling to find it, but that's what he said.

You're twisting the point of the statement. No-one are equating a black person with a poodle (or a rock), they are saying that if you are to deviate so much from the original for of the character, then you might as well deviate more.

And then the other poster came out defending him on the basis of, "well that's not so bad because after all dogs are people too." Again, he literally said that.

Uhm, unless you are referring to something outside the post I quoted, then.. no?! That statement would be a straw man to the point of ridiculousness. I also like how you twisted the statement of the "btw-ish" fact "people are animals" into the the ("straw-maned") opinion "black people are like dogs". Oh, no straw man, not at all.

I'm assuming you just don't know what the phrase "straw man" means but saw some other people using it and wanted to feel smart. Don't worry, dear, the internet is a learning experience for everyone. Here. [https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=straw+man+definition&aq=f&oq=straw+man+definition&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3j62l2.2693j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8]

That's really clever, smug insults really strengthen your points/arguments.

 

[mrhappy1489]

I agree that double standards aren't good, but lets face, nearly everything in our culture (that of a western male oriented culture) is has the white man at it's centre. You'll never find a white man having trouble getting a superhero job, because so many of the superheroes are white dudes. It'll have to start out as a double standard until we get to a point where the playing field has been evened out. Let's be honest here, it's pretty steeped towards us right now (Us being white men) and it needs these double standards for now, just to level it out. In 20-40 years, your argument will have significant strength, but for now, WE just have to SUCK IT UP, let them have this momentary double standard and work towards a more inclusive future.

EDIT: I'd like to stress that I agree with you on some points, but you have to agree that the playing field is angled much more towards us.

I'm not white. Though that doesn't really matter.

I understand what the intent is behind this. But giving people extra help always seemed wrong to me. If he's a good enough actor, he's assured to get a role at some point where he fits. Everyone needs to stop giving certain people a hand up and start treating everyone like they're all the same.

If we want to give black actors more roles, the better solution is to go through the things that haven't gotten a shot at being adapted yet.

I agree with what you have said and I'm sorry for assuming that you are white. The only problem I have with this is that, in my opinion, most roles suited for a black actor/actress just don't have the financial pull that movie studios are looking for. I think black people really have to break into the mainstream big time, this also goes for any other race that constitutes a minority in our western culture, for roles that are naturally suited to them are going to make more money. Another glaring problem is also that there really aren't any roles suited ti black people to begin with, because we've (western society) has only ever crafted movies and television as White centric pieces. We really do only need this temporary double standard until the point that we've crafted an industry were we don't need to change roles, because there are already roles for them there. The big thing is that there aren't roles to begin with and that has to change before we can stop changing white ones to black ones.