So according to some feminists, this anti-rape ad campaign is sexist

[Callate]

...

There are no analogies that aren't bad analogies for something like rape, no analogies that aren't going to offend someone. So, here's a bad analogy.

A car is speeding along the road you want to cross. You're next to a cross walk; you have the right of way, so you enter the crosswalk, intending to cross. The car hits you.

Is the driver at fault? Yes. He or she should have stopped to let you cross. You did indeed have the right of way.

Are you any less injured?

Are you any less of an idiot for putting yourself in an avoidable situation that was likely to get you hurt?

Should men not rape women? Yes, of course. The point is obvious- so obvious that all the other PSAs telling men not to rape are at best getting ignored and at worst actively offending men of good conscience who never have and never would sexually assault someone with the assumption that possession of a penis makes you first and foremost a potential rapist, a sentiment that makes them want to tune out of the conversation altogether.

Just because men shouldn't rape doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea to avoid putting yourself in a position that increases the danger of being raped. And the notion that this one announcement is bad simply because if fails to wag the "don't rape, men" finger is so... counter-productive, to put it kindly. It suggests such an absolute blind spot in someone's thinking to absolutely equate "There are things you can do that make it less likely you will be raped" with "if you get raped, it's your fault." It does a disservice to women, honestly, to say that there's no value in building situational awareness.

Saying "it's wrong" does not keep you safe. Saying "you shouldn't do this" doesn't mean no one will. Yes, the building codes say that tenth-story window should support a certain amount of weight; still, don't lean on the window. Yes, the weather report says that it will clear up later today, still you probably shouldn't bring your umbrella to climb to the highest point in the area during that lightning storm.

Yes, you should absolutely be able to wander the six blocks to your home in the dark, alone, hammered on Bacardi, wearing nothing but a tube top and a g-string, unmolested. In a perfect world, you could.

Reality laughs at people who think they live in, or can create, a perfect world. Every Single Time. If you did the above, I would feel very sorry for you after the results. And yes, it would be the rapist's fault. And you would still have been raped, and regardless of where you say the blame should fall, you could have prevented it.

 

[Hugga_Bear]

On the one hand we DO need to move away from the victim blaming shit we see so regularly (honestly those who think dressing in a certain way means you deserve rape are vile creatures that need to crawl back into the hole they slithered out of) but on the flip side this is not that bad.

To clarify, people DO need to be aware that there's a risk involved, yeah it would be nice to say there shouldn't be but there is, it's not saying don't have fun or don't dress up, it's just saying take a little care. I think it goes too far to say it but the message isn't bad. You DO need to take care, in the same way no one should be too drunk to take care of themselves...in fact thinking on it that's my biggest issue with this poster, it's ignoring the fact that NO ONE should EVER be too wasted to take care of themselves if they're out alone, preferably no one should ever be too wasted to take care of themselves at all but that's being a little optimistic.

Anyway I agree that the victim blaming is bullshit but this is not an instance of that, it's just a warning and a reminder.

Wanna talk about sexism, hit up those posters which target male abusers in relationships, THAT is sexist because the abuse is actually in favour of women, if anything men need more awareness that they can be abused. That really fucks me off.

 

[balanovich]

8 pages in. I hope by now someone has educated the OP about how misguided his anger is. The campaign is less about being sexist, and more of just fucking stupid. It's redirecting the blame from the source, which is the problem.

There's no blame! none what so ever.
It's a warning against being so drunk you can't help yourself.

When you say "The campaign is less about being sexist", which campaign are you talking about ? The feminist's is all about sexism.... and the Rape-preventing ad is in no way about sexism.... So what do you mean ?

 

[DrOswald]

First of I'm a guy, which makes me not a feminst?
I agree with feminist here. This add indeed put too much blame to the victims. You don't want to campaing against being raped, you want to campaing against rape. Sure you can do some prevention campaings, but it's a whole different thing to tell woman not to get raped.

I don't see how this campaign is "telling women not to get raped" as opposed to a "prevention campaign." It gives practical advice on prevention of date rape and places no blame on the victim. It clearly explains the cause and effect relationship of getting too drunk to make proper decisions and putting yourself at risk, a concept that is extremely important for date rape prevention. The only thing I can see it doing wrong is showing semi sexual imagery. If this is an unreasonable prevention ad please explain why. Be specific. In what way is too much blame placed on the victim?

 

[John Funk]

ITT mostly-privileged males misunderstand rape culture.

Rape is never the victim's fault. Prevention starts by changing how we men treat women, not by trying to control how women dress and act.

 

[Dr Snakeman]

Really-long-snip-that-needed-to-be-said

Nice. I want to express how impressed I am , but that "clapping" .gif is kind of overused. So I'm just going to say "Hooray for sanity! It finally won out on this thread!"

 

[Colour Scientist]

ITT mostly-privileged males misunderstand rape culture.

Rape is never the victim's fault. Prevention starts by changing how we men treat women, not by trying to control how women dress and act.

Nine pages in and you summed it up perfectly in two, short sentences.
It's such a shame you'll probably get a lot of rage responses for saying it.

 

[RanD00M]

Well according to some feminists it's impossible to be sexist against men, so I don't think we should really be listening to them.

 

[Del-Toro]

One of my University's two anti-rape (yes, we have two) groups has been putting up a campaign to the effect of those feminist's complaint, and I have to say it seems stupid to me. For my part I've been inundated with "No means no" for years now, so it seems to me like men are being told not to do something that's also super-illegal under laws written almost exclusively by men. But, as with everything else, some people aren't actually going to listen, and jailtime or not, once it's happened the damage has been done, so, knowing that there are predatory individuals out there, it makes sense for potential victims to take steps to reduce their likelihood of becoming actual victims. At least that's how I see it, getting pissy and screaming "blame the victim" over anti-rape campaigns urging women to take steps to protect themselves is like getting angry over commercials telling people to wear seatbelts because it's not the person's fault when they die in a car crash, it's wrong to tell them to take responsibility for their own safety. While it's true that in neither case can the victim be blamed with good conscience, becoming angry at the suggestion that preventative measures be taken is borderline retarded.

 

[Jamous]

If that was actually a 'don't get raped' advertisement then I'd probably stand with the post. But it really isn't; it's not really aimed at the victim or the rapist. It's an awareness ad, surely? It's basically saying to stick by your friends and help them out in case they get into a dodgy situation whilst drunk. I might be completely misunderstanding the advert, but hey.
On an aside, I doubt ads aimed at Rapists would be all that effective, unfortunately. Maybe I don't get the character of a rapist all that well but it doesn't seem to me that a potential rapist would really be put off by an advert. That said, I don't think that ads should be aimed at victims either. If you're going to make adverts at all, awareness raising ads with some statistics or examples would probably be the best way to do it.
On another aside, is that ad really saying it's the woman's fault? Yes, it's saying her judgement's impaired due to booze or drugs, but is it saying it's her fault because of that? I don't think so, but maybe I'm just being naive. Ah well.

 

[zehydra]

Actually, I think the issue, particularly when it comes to alcohol, is that a lot of guys just want to get laid, and sometimes they'll think what they're doing isn't rape.

The issue isn't telling guys NOT to rape, it's telling them that what they're doing is actually rape.

At the same time, the notion that this ad is offensive is preposterous.

 

[darkfox85]

Snip

Hello there.

Thank you for the response. I respect that it was probably a pain to read it all and it may?ve made you as angry as some of the things I?ve read in this thread have made me angry. Please forgive the verbosity. I struggle to be *clear,* but if you makes you feel any better, it?s only *clear* to me that I failed.

I feel much of your ire against my post is essentially repeating the virtues of a preventative measure in the form of a public service. Now, the OP?s advert will definitely do more harm than good. But in the latter part of that sentence I mentioned ?good.? I have nothing against preventive measures for crimes. No one does. I certainly don?t think lookout signs for thieves and pick-pockets etc are bad things. These signs do not suggest that in failing to do these things it?s your fault and it can be used in court against you (however, admittedly tangentially.) I do think this advert is a bad thing because these are not the same things. I?m sorry but you ARE over simplifying.

So signs that say ?don?t swim in shark infested waters? are good things. It?s frankly a little patronizing and a subtle straw-man to accuse a person of thinking otherwise but in this case, with this crime, the crime of sexual assault; it will do more harm than good. Rape is a much thornier issue than theft or burglary or many others. People aren?t afraid to come forward when these things happen to them. Physical assault, blackmail, even verbal threats might make the victim afraid to come forward but it doesn?t have the same problems as sexual assault where you?d have to admit to that degree of humiliation (after all, you?ve lost your ?honour? or so society tells you,) tell the authorities what state you were in, what you wearing, who were you with, did you lead the attacker on, why did you go to that place, why didn?t you fight more, how dark was it, how much did you drink, where were your friends, DID YOU ENJOY IT!? DID YOU SECRETLY WANT IT?! (Both of these have been used by rapist apologists to my face.) No one entertains the possibility of blaming the victim in quite the same way as they do with rape cases and ?publicity? like that advert do not help. It?ll make people not want to report the rape because the advert indirectly implies that it?s the victims fault for not taking the proper precautions. This won?t happen with other crimes. Not to mention, this crime is as personal as you can get.

Throughout your repetitive rebuttal you danced around the fact that most rapists are already known by the victim but instead seem to assume they are all the psychotic type that I have mentioned. You?re still not seeing the full picture of rape. But you?re right when saying that ?This particular ad campaign isn't aiming to prevent every type of rape ever.? But it fails to address the vast majority of rapes which makes the damn ad pretty damn ineffective. But its ineffectiveness is just the tip of the iceberg. This has very heavy bearing, not no bearing, heavy bearing, and you?re missing the point.

I?ve supported preventative measures like this against the psychotic type but ultimately adds like this don?t do much good except tell anyone who reads them that thanks to the circumstances not being followed it?s the victims fault. Yes the conviction rate is low, and yes it?s for ?a lot of reason? ? just a very different reason that what you seem to be suggesting. I?m thinking of the sheer volume of rapists that don?t meet punishment or are even ever held accountable for their heinous crime. I think to increase convictions and encouraging more victims coming out against this attack would be a good thing but it would done both in spite of short-sighted ads like this and this hypersensitive worry that people are going to start falsely accusing you of rape.

But if I want to scuttle myself I do know a way. How many wrongful convictions are worth risking in an attempt to get as many smug opportunistic violators to respect the law? This part of my argument can be shaken here and if you want to hammer the point home in a way I haven?t thought of, this is an opportunity. I welcome it.

It?s been stated over and over that most rapists might not understand what they?re doing is rape. Not to mention that force can be subtle. Pressure, blackmail, power balancing, assumptions that you can?t rape your spouse or partner etc. Please forget these ?dark alleyways? which you repeatedly mention and forget other moustache twirling rapists ala carefully premeditated spiked drinks and isolation tactics and focus on the bulk of this crime (unlike the ad.) Not the minority of psychotics, and they are a minority, rapists are gonna rape. I feel like I need to start mentioning ?good rape? and ?bad rape? Brass-Eye style just to get this damn point across for once and for all!

Okay I will admit I used the word ?evidence? when I should?ve used the word ?support? (or perhaps something else.) All those circumstances that surround a rape could cast suspicion on the victim. This doesn?t happen with other crimes. Hence the low conviction rate. Rapists are walking out scott-free and all we?re doing is making potential victims more paranoid they did something wrong.

You want a REAL preventative measure in a public service advertisement? It would be saying things a long the lines of telling potential victims that saying no even to your spouse or partner means no and refusal to hear it is rape, or that you shouldn?t let someone subtly bully, threaten or pressure you into doing something you don?t want to. Things like this. Sweet Jesus Christ we can do these precious preventative measures without blaming the victim.

And so I use the word masculinist (for want of a better, more gender neutral term. Okay I admit I?m kicking myself over this ? I had gone to great pains to ensure gender neutrality for maximum accuracy.) It?s a fake term to counter all these ridiculous digs at such a complex and varied ideology as feminism. Hell I disagree with most of it myself but I?m not gonna slide the whole thing into the abyss. Further, I really don?t understand how you think I think people are secretly hoping to get raped from that section.

And those ?conjectures? about sexual assault playing differently on the minds of different genders? They are not conjectures. They are facts. Talk to men. Talk to women. It comes out very easily and openly and honestly.

?You also want us to focus our attention on reminding would-be rapists that what they're doing is bad, when you yourself told us that only a very, very few incidents are a result of the rapist being ignorant of that? These are your words and they are completely wrong. I never said that. I spent the whole 2,500 odd words trying to express the widespread arrogance and ignorance of the nature of rape and you completely missed the point.

The rapist (or ?good rapist? if I really have to resort to these measures to make my verbosity crystal clear) is an arrogant and dismissive creature that needs to be reminded what they?re doing will get them jail time. Further, these preventative measures I want to see is also to remind would-be rapists they?re facing that same serious jail time (or death penalty, if you like) ? so don?t violate human beings. Of course not all rapists will pay any attention, (the ?bad rapists? won?t ? I can?t believe I need to make this rotten distinction!) but to use your own words, preventative advice can at least help to prevent most of the rapes which is damn lot more than the OP?s ad will ever, ever achieve. And after all ?Would you also complain that the March of Dimes is backwards or evil because they only support kids, rather than the elderly??

p.s. I did have to wiki that.

 

[Callate]

ITT mostly-privileged males misunderstand rape culture.

And with four words, a large percentage of people who might actually benefit from the dialogue summarily received the message that any statement they might make would be dismissed with "you just don't understand" and tuned the rest of the conversation out.

 

[Prosis]

People tell me to lock my house up when I go away on vacation.

What, so its my fault if I get robbed? We should launch a campaign to teach that stealing is bad. Why should I have to lock up my house? It's stupid.

Clearly it is society's fault for not removing all robbers, not my fault for taking preventive measures.

We live in a rob-culture society. Every day, whenever you say "I'd like to have that," or "Man, that new Ipad is so sick," or "Life would be a lot easier with a lot of money," you know that you aren't going to steal. But someone overhearing that conversation may not know.

We need to teach people that it is wrong to say that you want something. In addition, you need to be proactive and tell other people not to talk about what they want. Sure, you may not be a robber, but your friends may be.

If you would stop encouraging people to look at objects or money as something to have, then we wouldn't have robbers.

EDIT: We do not live in a perfect society. There are bad people out there. Until society is perfect (which will never happen), all potential victims should take preventive measures.

 

[BlackWidower]

It's like pedophilia and murder, we don't have campaigns telling people not to do that because it's something we shouldn't need to remind people of. However we should tell likely victims how to prevent such an act. This isn't blaming the victim, this is making the victim aware that this kind of thing happens and they should try to prevent it.

You could try having an ad campaign that would say, "Don't rape." But it would be completely ineffective.

They just want to make waves. They should be more sensible.

 

[peruvianskys]

ITT mostly-privileged males misunderstand rape culture.

Rape is never the victim's fault. Prevention starts by changing how we men treat women, not by trying to control how women dress and act.

Perfect!

I'm tired of people saying, "Men already know not to rape, we don't need to tell them." If that were the case, then women wouldn't get raped. Obviously quite a few men think it's a perfectly fine thing to do, considering one out of every four women are raped in their lives. If men didn't need to be taught about consent and respect and all that, then there wouldn't be rape!

 

[Versago]

Wow... Just wow. If we have any feminists on the forum, I hope to god they dont share her views.

Dude, I'm a feminist - relax. The stereotypes cast by the media's more "favourited" extreme branch of bimbos is rarely shared by feminists who are 'normal people'. But often shared by feminazis.

Personally I don't dislike this add - but I wish it wasn't being used as an anti-rape message, when really what it does well is an anti-overintoxication message, put forward through the cringing imagary brought on my the topic of rape.

And it's not actually pointing fingers at the victims of "Forced Sex", but instead warning people about the dangers of "Being Taken Advantage of" that they may not think about enough to let it effect their drinking habits (or use of other intoxicants).

THAT SAID: These posters are focusing entirely on women getting drunk and promiscuous, ignoring the other half of the equation entirely. I wish one of the posters had a warning to men not to try it with an overly drunk woman - no matter how much she slurs 'yes', it's still taking advantage.
The reason that anyone is complaining about these is that there is ZERO blame on the men: who appearantly will fuck anything drunk that moves without question or shame. Which is hopefully untrue.

 

[darkfox85]

Spoiler: snip

Okay.

Well said there, you raise a number of important points.

Thanks. Actually I?ve been kinda stalking you and plotting your progress through the thread with a ?right on? feeling to most everything you?ve been saying. Along with another person who seems to have stopped posting, it inspired me to write my own uber post.