So apparently I have a lot to learn about "teaching the childrens" to be obedient little cogs.

[sallene]

Or, at least my nephew.

(BTW if this is TL/DR, my main question is at the bottom)

My nephew is 16 and smart. Not smart in the straight A's honor role smart, but smart as in he can see the world for what it is. Now, I was that kind of smart when I was a kid, and no it wasnt the "know it all" sort of smart kids tend to be. I am talking about the kind of smart that children shouldnt be at that age. The kind where you can see and understand the world and BS that goes on behind the scenes and in plain view. That kind of smart can really leave you discontent at a young age and let me tell, it is not a good thing and can lead to misanthropy and other generally anti-social attitudes and viewpoints.


So knowing this my sister asked me to talk to him. It seems he isnt really applying himself in school like she knows he can and his grades have pretty much leveled out at the C range(american grading system). Now being where he was those many years ago I can understand my sister's concern. So I agreed to talk to him seeing as how for some reason he relates to me more than his dad(a fact that aggrevates him to no end).

Now, I went in there thinking I knew exactly how to steer him into being a nice little cog in the great machine we call this bowl swirling excuse for a society. That is not how it went however. I listened to his point of view and realized that it was wrong of me to try and change him into being some braindead materialistic consumer driven zombie, even if it was for my big sister. Instead I simply steered him into making an effort so he could do what I do, which is make a decent enough living to be able to tell the world to fuck off and leave it to it's own devices.

Apparently that wasnt good enough. My brother-in-law is upset that I only seemed to "encourage" his anti-social behavior instead of convincing him to "be like everyone else" and fit in. Of course my big sis is only "disapointed" that I couldnt do more so that he would have an easier time of things and not end up like myself.

I simply informed them that there is little else I could do and I wouldnt be a party to "lobotomizing" him just so he could have more friends. Its not like he gets beat up or bullied, in fact if he was more like they want him to be it would be more likely he would be the bully in such a situation.


So what do the escapists think in this situation? Would it be better if I had been able to convince him to "be like everyone else" and be a good little cog in the machine? Or do you think that its best to let him discover his own path as he is no matter the outcome?

Do you think "fitting in" is really that important or do you only see it as a mechanism to keep kid's form being teased or "standing out" in a bad way? if so, do you think it is more of a negative commentary on society that it would rather force people to conform through the threat of consequenses(bullying/being a social outcaste) rather than be themselves no matter how popular they may be? If you think this only applies to highschool then you obviously havent had an office job or worked in corporate america.

 

[APPCRASH]

Let him try finding his own path and keep encouraging him that he can be original. When he realizes that being original is fucking retarded and unattainable, his dreams will be crushed and he will go back to where he belongs, in the system.

 

[Bernzz]

Teaching them to be obedient little cogs...I'm sorry, but the first thing that came to my mind was Gears of War. Teaching them to be Gears...

 

[Kuropan]

Let him try finding his own path and keep encouraging him that he can be original. When he realizes that being original is fucking retarded and unattainable, his dreams will be crushed and he will go back to where he belongs, in the system.

Hear hear.

 

[A random person]

Hell no he shouldn't be a cog. He should think critically and freely, calling out the surrounding world on its bullshit and improving it as a result, instead of being the cog zombie your brother in law wants him to be. This isn't just for him, everyone should think freely and critically, calling out the world on its bullshit and improving it. Fitting in is merely an opiate, a way of avoiding yourself and the problems of the metaphorical machine.

I'd yell at you and your siblings more over the internet, but I'd probably get banned since I have some harsh words, especially for your brother in law.

 

[Deadpoolsbrain]

Do what you're doing I was like this and my parents were cool with it as long as I made some effort to make decent enough grades.

 

[OneBig Man]

Eventually he will find the other anti-social people and hang out with them. Hopefully they womt pressure him into taking illeagal substances.

 

[jonnosferatu]

It might help to point out that you very rarely have to sell your soul to do well in school, go to a good college, and generally make yourself look like an attractive hire.

I empathize with him a lot, since I've got much the same mindset, but I decided pretty early on that it's better to be successful in what time you do spend in the system (ie the school day, etc.) and enjoy the fruits of that while you're outside of it than it is to reject it completely and let it fully screw you over. You don't even have to pretend to like the system while you're inside it (I certainly never did), but it's extremely stupid to seriously detriment your future over it.

 

[Talendra]

What you did is perfect, encouraging him to be himself, but still to do his best in school and other important things is the best thing you could do.

He is also much more likely to listen as if you try to turn him into that little cog, he will just rebel more so anyway.

 

[Guitar Gamer]

Eventually he will find the other anti-social people and hang out with them. Hopefully they womt pressure him into taking illeagal substances.

it's really weird, most "anti social" and "non people persons" that I've met, get along with each other quite well

 

[Satoz]

I think too many people defend "outcasts" simply because it seems cool to do so, Ive known my fair share of these, heck ive even felt like that, but there is an issue here.

If this kid is "smart" as you put it, he should understand he needs good grades to improve his chance of sucess, he sounds like that "I kinda know what im doing but Im just too lazy to change, or work for grades" Also I doubt he really understands the BS of the world, or he only hears about the BS, sure government has a ton of problems/corruption, walmart is a jerk, and we are not all created equal, but life still has tons of ups, and limiting your future is stupid.

Your decision to tell the world to F off is your choice, but it kinda sounds like you are persuading him to do that...now we all go through hate towards the world, but it seems a bit unfair to say all society is bad, that everyone is the same "cog" except for a few individuals who despite being super "special" and "unique" fail to do much. Its very easy to be anti social, harder to be yourself and social, but possible. You wont make him a zombie just to fit in a little more, in fact its not a great thing to be hermit or kid in his room.

you dont necessarily have to conform to fit in, its not that black and white, some people just dont care about others, and make themselves seperate, some act superior or always make negative comments and are thus no fun to be around. You might think its ok to leave someone in that situation because you are confusing who you are with someone else, you dont specify his point of view on life so that makes this harder to comment on, id rather like to get a little info on that.

Again he does not have to be like everyone else, he doesnt have to turn into a "duplicate" cog, but I think alot of people have this misleading idea that everyone is the same if they are popular or social, you know people can still be themselves, smart and understanding even if they function in the social order. Id suggest helping him find a way to do that instead of hiding. but yeah more info as to what the kid thinks would help

 

[RadicalDreamer90]

-This is in response to when you talked about fitting in-
I wasn't the most social person coming up through my years in school, but If I learned one thing it's that the world has alot of different people, and there are alot of similarities. I kept to how I was and retained all my views and personality and I found people and "fit in" just fine. It didn't change how I thought or acted. If he's outcasting himself he naturally needs time to find the error in that because human's are social creatures. He shouldn't
be "like everyone else" to fit in, if he's himself he'll find people who are similar to him on his own. If you try and be someone else you tend to attract fake friends, and nobody wants that. He'll find where he belongs by himself because it's not something anyone can be taught. He just hasn't found the group of people similar to him. So that's not something to worry about. It's extremely common.

-On the subject of his grades-

He seriously needs to get his grades up and his act together in school. It doesn't matter how you view the corruption in the world you still need to make a living, and high school is the first step in determining how easy it'll be for you.

-All in all-
Tell his family to lighten up and let the kid find his own path. Life is a giant learning experience and you can't hold a child's hand forever. Sixteen may be close to adulthood, but your far from experiencing all life has to offer so he'll lighten up and he'll change in time. You did your part, so don't feel guilty or anything of the sort. It's his life, let him live it. As for your sister and your brother-in-law, You can't force help, you can only offer it.

 

[sallene]

*snip*

To clarify his point of view. He knows that after school no matter his grades even with college the most he has to look forward to is working a 9-5 job, in an office or not doesnt matter because he gets that all he will be doing is getting up in the morning, going to some job he might even not like but has to suffer through because he needs to make a living, coming home from work, maybe go to a pub with coworkers or do some other kind of socializing, get home, go to bed and do the whole thing over agian the next day.


I cant say I blame him. I was completely demoralized when I came to this realization at his age. I believe some of his words were "No matter how my mom, or dad or other people try to spin it, the world is mundane. All i have to look forward to is getting a job I may hate or may be able to tolerate, toiling away under florescent lights just so I can collect a paycheck to buy enough material goods to make me forget how uneventful life is while I am workign away paying taxes waiting to die."

Not his exact words, but close.


Also, it never fails to amaze me when I say "anti-social" people automatically go to the emo kids or goth kids or general people with bad attitudes. He is generally like me except he doesnt really see the world being as hopeless as I do. He simply does not operate on the same level as kids in his school. While they are busy with keggers and how got nailed at what party or who got knocked up by the star quarterback he is saddled down with more worldly views and knowledge. In short, his perception has grown far to soon than it should have. He percieves things as an adult would and undersands them as an adult would.


I guess it is fair to say that he has charted his future, and even his best possible outcome has left him at most apathetic about it all. I cant really say I blame him but I did encourage him to take more of an initiative in getting better grades. I told him that in this world money buys freedom, not the kind that government is supposed to give you, but personal kind of freedom that allows you some real escape from the world if even for a little while.


Sitting here, typing this out I am probably going to go over there tomorrow and see if I can take him out sailing for a week. He loves boats and the ocean so I think steering him more towards a nautical lifestyle would do him good and give him the freedom he wants and a sense that he is in charge of his own life and not simply at the whims of society.

 

[Haydyn]

You had good intentions. I'm 17 years old, and I feel very simular to your nephew. Although grades are not a problem for me. I just get by finding shortcuts and putting as little effort into schoolwork as possible (most of the time.) As far as another cog in the machine, I don't quite understand. I have very different and anti social viewpoints, but I never act them out or even admit their existence in my current living situation. I have had more than my fair share of trouble in the past, but it was for different reasons.

My advice would be to convince him to take advantage of education. While being able to get good grades might not hlep you in life, HAVING the grades will. Comparing people with and without colledge education, it's almost like people will bend over backwards for you if you have a good enough degree. Therapists spend years becoming qualified to listen to other people's problems, and only give the same advice they could get for free. There are cogs, and there are broken parts laying on the ground. And then there are parts of the machine that are more important, parts that serve a purpose that not any part can do.

I think I just inspired myself.

 

[A Pious Cultist]

Getting poor grades certainly isn't "sticking it to the man".
Life is ultimately what you make it sallene, if you and your nephew view it as mundane you'll have mundane lives. If you don't like the way the world is run then change it. If not, then just try and have as much fun as you can along the way, like most people try to.

:/ "Carpe Diem" says it all.

 

[hypothetical fact]

He obviously isn't smart or he would understand that "be like the boy" still requires work and if he starts opening doors now it will be much easier to slack off for much longer later.

 

[sallene]

Getting poor grades certainly isn't "sticking it to the man".
Life is ultimately what you make it sallene, if you and your nephew view it as mundane you'll have mundane lives. If you don't like the way the world is run then change it. If not, then just try and have as much fun as you can along the way, like most people try to.

:/ "Carpe Diem" says it all.

Never claimed getting bad grades "was sticking it to the man".

Like I said, he just percieves the world in more realistic way than most. You are obviously someone who believes that any one person can make a difference and change the world and that life's a bowl of cherries. Not everyone has the mindset, most people cant get over the fact that humanity has simply boiled down to being born, indoctrinated to be a materialistic consumer working a job to pay for said materialistic consumer lifestyle and then you die. Sure not everyone is like that, but it is a very small few who actually find their calling, do something they like and actually go to bed at night with a sense of accomplishment for their day's activity.


Its why I am now going to convice my sister and brother in law to let him take sailing lessons and why I think I am going to see if he is interested in doing something with boats since he loves sailing and the ocean so much.

 

[Squarez]

*Snip* You are obviously someone who believes that any one person can make a difference and change the world and that life's a bowl of cherries. Not everyone has the mindset, most people cant get over the fact that humanity has simply boiled down to being born, indoctrinated to be a materialistic consumer working a job to pay for said materialistic consumer lifestyle and then you die. *Snip*

It seems to me that he should find something he enjoys and does it for him, I never got why doing a job is "being part of the machine", oh, because taxes are paying for...oh I don't know.Just tell your nephew that he could at least do better in school, even if it's for getting a pointless, worthless letter on your resumé, when he finds what he wants to do then he can do it.

 

[Jirlond]

Regardless of his social and political standpoints, an education is invaluable. I have no idea on the american education system - but there are many kids here in the UK who waste their opportunities. Many of the attributes your nephew is showing are mainly angst at the world that have continually let him down, he also wants to try to be unique - but this is no reason to not give a fuck!

Tell him if he wants to be different fair enough, but there is nothing more satisfying than proving that you are smarter than the people you despise!

'fitting in' is not the point, letting your grades suffer is not a way to rebel against this zombie society. In many respects I do agree with your nephew, but in a few years he will figure out his own solution to being happy with the world. I think its important to make him see that by giving up and not applying himself in education he is just like the 'zombies' let down by the system.

 

[Gadzooks]

I got given the same discussion by my parents, in year 10. They said if I didn't start getting A's instead of C's and D's they would kick me out of home. That worked pretty well, because I got A's for the rest of my school life.

As for the kid, try convincing him that no matter what he wants to do with his life, he should try and get the best grades he can now, so that if he ever changes his mind on things and wants to pursue a high paid career or whatever, he always has the option.

I think it's very regrettable to short change yourself on your later life options because you don't want to fit a mould. Tell him he shouldn't do it for his parents, or you, but for himself. Everyone changes as they get older, you never know what you will eventually want to do, and if you find yourself wanting something later on but not being able to follow that dream because you slacked off in school or similar... Well, that's a sad thing.

Also, it's pretty satisfying to have some knowledge under your belt. It gives you a sense of superiority, which is fun.