So apparently I have a lot to learn about "teaching the childrens" to be obedient little cogs.

[Jirlond]

I got given the same discussion by my parents, in year 10. They said if I didn't start getting A's instead of C's and D's they would kick me out of home. That worked pretty well, because I got A's for the rest of my school life.

As for the kid, try convincing him that no matter what he wants to do with his life, he should try and get the best grades he can now, so that if he ever changes his mind on things and wants to pursue a high paid career or whatever, he always has the option.

I think it's very regrettable to short change yourself on your later life options because you don't want to fit a mould. Tell him he shouldn't do it for his parents, or you, but for himself. Everyone changes as they get older, you never know what you will eventually want to do, and if you find yourself wanting something later on but not being able to follow that dream because you slacked off in school or similar... Well, that's a sad thing.

Also, it's pretty satisfying to have some knowledge under your belt. It gives you a sense of superiority, which is fun.

Yup, love that superioritaaa feelin'

 

[bluepilot]

I can see his point. In the `real` world, fitting in and having social skills can be of a great advantage. It is the people who are good at sucking up to the boss/sleep with the boss, who get the promotions. And the most that we have to look foward to is a deadend thankless 9-5 job which will eventually cheat you out of your pension so you have to file for bankruptancy at 75.

But, whereas this can be a reality, it does not have to be a case. You can be a sucess by being good with people, or just being `good` in your own right.

Your nephew must have something that he wants to do in life, an interest. I think that you should help him discover this interest and help him become one of the best at it. Not all accomplishments lie within acedemic achievement. Some paths rely on other things. If he likes to fix things, maybe he can be a car mechanic e.t.c.

He likes sailing so maybe he could become a fisherman, a coastguard, sew crew, join the Navy. Possibilities are endless if you are willing to work for them.

A lack of social skills can be a disadvantage but you can balance them out with a special ability or unique training.

I think that it is okay not to fit in or like people. I am the same. I hate people and now I work as a researcher in Japan. I have my own lab and do not get much trouble because I am the only one who can act as an interpriatator when needed (skill outweighing my lack of social skills). But I had to study at Universitu level for 6 years before getting this kind of work.

My brother left school at 16. He works in a stock room. It is not `sucessful` as such but he is happy.

I think that the important thing is to find your niche, and be good enough to fill it.

 

[lostclause]

As the same age as your nephew and thinking roughly the same thing I sympathise. But remember that 'born school job retire die' is not all there is. Whilst it might seem formulaic there are going to be unique and interesting things along the way, nothing worthy of the history books perhaps but certainly enough to keep life interesting. He's over simplifying. Sure playing counterstrike for a 5 hour marathon with friends isn't going to get books written about you but it's fun nevertheless.

 

[zari]

To clarify his point of view. He knows that after school no matter his grades even with college the most he has to look forward to is working a 9-5 job, in an office or not doesnt matter because he gets that all he will be doing is getting up in the morning, going to some job he might even not like but has to suffer through because he needs to make a living, coming home from work, maybe go to a pub with coworkers or do some other kind of socializing, get home, go to bed and do the whole thing over agian the next day.

Holy hell, what a defeatist attitude.
You know there are people out there who actually enjoy what they do for a living, right? Rather that telling him that the world essentially sucks, how about encouraging him (and by the sounds of it yourself) to find some passion for life - find something that he enjoys and is good at and then find an angle to make a living from it. You don't necessarily have to be super qualified to do something that you like - I've had plenty of students (high school level) who've only barely graduated yet not accepted that they're destined to be a wage slave and have gone out found things they've subseqently enjoyed for a career.[1]

Especially in light of the current state of world economies it's a reality that you might get stuck in a job you're not happy in (and be relatively thankful for the fact that you have a job at all), but to use something like that as an excuse to give up and take the attitude that that's the best that there is is just lunacy.

I told him that in this world money buys freedom, not the kind that government is supposed to give you, but personal kind of freedom that allows you some real escape from the world if even for a little while.

The worst assumption here is that the world is a place to escape from, rather than create something out of.

Do you think "fitting in" is really that important or do you only see it as a mechanism to keep kid's form being teased or "standing out" in a bad way? if so, do you think it is more of a negative commentary on society that it would rather force people to conform through the threat of consequenses(bullying/being a social outcaste) rather than be themselves no matter how popular they may be? If you think this only applies to highschool then you obviously havent had an office job or worked in corporate america.

I don't really see the original question as being about fitting in, but rather about distancing yourself from everything around you because you don't like what you perceive to be reality. But anyway, I'll answer the question anyhow: Fitting it is not important. Being comfortable with yourself is. However it is also important to understand how to best take care of ones self with respect to how society operates. Saying that the whole world is run on bullshit is all very well, but if by that perception you refuse to participate in it, then be prepared to have a green thumb and grow all your own food. Otherwise you might want to re-examine your outlook on life. This is not 'fitting in', this is 'acknowledging reality'.

I see your question as being a bit flawed. You use the example of bullying and bullying by social exclusion as the consequences for not fitting in with a clique (be it large or small), but you then use that as an argument for rejecting society as a whole. Now there are people who reject an entire society's ideals and perspectives. If that is the case then there are a few options: be miserable, re-examine yourself and your situation and try and find something you can anchor yourself to in a positive way (person/people/pasttime/career/etc), or find a society (or lack thereof, if you really want to be a hermit) in which you are more comfortable (not always the most affordable option, but it's there).

[1] - On the flip side of course, there are plenty of people who are indoctrinated into an attitude of apathy and despair. Like kids who grow up in welfare situations who aspire to nothing more than collecting a cheque and/or going halves in an early pregnancy. These are not 'smart kids who see the world as it really is'. These are kids who have been told that they are destined to fail, have seen it as an example in their own families, and have grown up believing that it is the best they can hope for themselves. This is the real bullshit in the world.

 

[stompythebeast]

I honestly was raised by myself, the only talk my parents ever gave me where

1. Anything you see on TV is at the very least someone else's opinion, aka take it with grain of salt.
2. Porn is bad, dont watch it(my mom)or watch it seldomly (dad)
3.Always use a rubber ( i was 11 when i got this one, lol)

Everything else i learned by myself. I guess im very lucky, since my sister is turning into another one of those preteens that wears mini-skirts and watches only MTV 24/7 and does homework in school. Dont bother telling your nephew what he should or shouldnt do, because this will slowly but surely build a sense of dependability on others opinions. Im very independent, and i follow the good ol cliche "do what your heart tells you", instead of having some one tell me when i was 13 "do what makes you happy", because i sure as hell would of been smoking a ton of weed. You did the right thing, honestly. He sounds like me when i was 16, and i didnt turn out an anti-social. Just because im cynical and sarcastic doesnt mean i cant have friends, even if i can count that number of friends in one hand.

 

[Labyrinth]

Oh wow, I can empathise with his "oh fuck it all" attitude. Highschool is a bad time to be disillusioned but that kind of thing happens all too often. My peers are not the Ignorant Little Children that so many people would have the be, nor are they the juvenile delinquents that others portray them as simply because of this.

Simply put it's difficult if not impossible to convince someone who's become disillusioned that it's worth bothering any more. Regurgitated answers like "Yes mum/dad/teacher/other, I'll do something about it" mask the same attitude with an arbitrary response so that said person would shut up and go away. In short we will stubbornly make our own mistakes, be they the same as our parents made or vastly different, devastating or minor. It's not a self-destructive mechanism so much as it is the need to break away and discover for ones self. Tragic that it often results in apathy.

We teenagers are held as High Achievers (potential success story) or Juvenile Delinquents (definitely an idiot) with no grey area in between. It frustrates the hell out of me to see this kind of thing, especially when the only way that some people think to combat it is to send around American Dream-esque motivational speakers who stand up and shout about how "we can do it!"

 

[Borrowed Time]

As i said in a thread last week. Attitude, attitude, attitude. Your attitude determines your lifestyle. If all you want is a mundane existance and that's all you're resigned to, that's what you'll have. If you have no ambition in life and think the entire world has it out for you then it will. If instead, you apply yourself and work to better yourself and your little nitch of the world, it can be far from mundane. I work as a Security Guard, yeah, not glorious. You know what though? I wouldn't change it for the world. I have a loving wife and 2 great kids. I have a great home and a roof over my head. I never go hungry (slaps belly, "that's more then apparent") and I have plenty of things to keep me occupied.

Sure I lapse into a "omg the world sucks" mentality now and again, but I snap out of it and realize that I could have it a hell of a lot worse. There's people who'se entire meal during the day is half a cup of rice. There's people who would kill (literally) to have a life a quarter as comfortable as my own. It's attitude, all attitude. Maybe eventually he'll quit feeling sorry for himself and snap out of this funk. Maybe he won't, but what's ultimately going to lead him to his lot in life, is his attitude.

Yes, call me an uncompassionate fuck, I've been called worse. In all honesty, take back control of your own life instead of giving it to the government or whatever else you give it to. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and start doing. Stop bitching and start solving.

He'll figure it out eventually. You can nudge him this way or that, but he'll have to make the decisions in the end. To change someone though, just doesn't work. It's the same with a relationship. If you love someone, why in the world would you try to change them? I'm not talking about trying to get them to stop smoking or something, but to actually change them. You can love parts of someone, but you truly don't love them at that point. Loving them is taking the great points with the faults and accepting the whole. In fact, even loving what makes them imperfect, the things that drive you crazy about them, because that's part of what makes them who they are. He's developing his own ideas. Unfortunately he's defeated right now. Just do your best to help pick him up and dust him off. He'll get there eventually.

*Stops American dream 'we can do it' rant* =P

 

[A Pious Cultist]

You are obviously someone who believes that any one person can make a difference and change the world and that life's a bowl of cherries. Not everyone has the mindset, most people cant get over the fact that humanity has simply boiled down to being born, indoctrinated to be a materialistic consumer working a job to pay for said materialistic consumer lifestyle and then you die.

On the contrary, I don't. I do however think if you're going to spend your energy complaining about how shit the world is and then don't do a god-damn thing about it then you're not a very good person.

Sure, one person can't make a noticable difference but if no one is willing to take the first step then nothing will ever change.

 

[Booze Zombie]

If he's smart like you say, the pressure shouldn't effect him like it's effected most others.

 

[timmytom1]

I was like that at school,confortably passed everything,but never spectacular ,largely because i hardly ever did any revising and whatnot.College changed that

 

[sallene]

Oh wow, I can empathise with his "oh fuck it all" attitude. Highschool is a bad time to be disillusioned but that kind of thing happens all too often. My peers are not the Ignorant Little Children that so many people would have the be, nor are they the juvenile delinquents that others portray them as simply because of this.

Simply put it's difficult if not impossible to convince someone who's become disillusioned that it's worth bothering any more. Regurgitated answers like "Yes mum/dad/teacher/other, I'll do something about it" mask the same attitude with an arbitrary response so that said person would shut up and go away. In short we will stubbornly make our own mistakes, be they the same as our parents made or vastly different, devastating or minor. It's not a self-destructive mechanism so much as it is the need to break away and discover for ones self. Tragic that it often results in apathy.

We teenagers are held as High Achievers (potential success story) or Juvenile Delinquents (definitely an idiot) with no grey area in between. It frustrates the hell out of me to see this kind of thing, especially when the only way that some people think to combat it is to send around American Dream-esque motivational speakers who stand up and shout about how "we can do it!"

I think you get it more than most posters on here. His attitude isnt one of emo - "oh woah is me" sort of attitude, he has simply awakened early to the fact that he may very well end up in a life of repetition and mediocrity, no matter what he does or tries. Its a very demoralizing realization to come to at his age and can be very suffocating.


Like I said that other posters may not have read, I have a few ideas to try to get him at least looking forward with a bit better outlook on the future, but I dont know if thats going to work.

 

[Xyphon]

I would say you should NEVER try to force someone to be who they aren't. You can nudge him along a little, but not try to turn him. I stood out as a kid. I almost never went with the flow. (Although I did get into mainstream rap in my younger years..... thank God I'm not into that anymore.)

Because of my standing out, I was the most picked on and bullied in every school I went to. That in turn made me into the person I am today. It thickened my skin and made me realize exactly who I am. It helped me to realize that no matter what, there will be a person there trying to mess you up and that the only guarantee in life is a life worth dying for.

Don't try to turn him. Nudge him in the right direction when he needs it.

 

[Vern]

Let him know that people care about him, and that he needs to find his own direction in life. If he has fully formed ideas that he's arrived at by his own conclusions then there's no reason to steer him away. If he's not causing anyone harm, not doing drugs, not robbing people, but instead becoming his own person then yay. That's what's being a person is all about, the ability to choose your own life, and if it's not hurting other people then by all means encourage it. We need more free thinkers, that actually think.

 

[Plinglebob]

I have to partly agree with your Sister and Brother-in-law. While I disagree with forcing him to change so he fits in, there are 2 things he should do to make life easier for himself now and in the future.

The first, and most obvious, is get his grades up. While its great to know in yourself your intelligent, no-ones going to believe you unless you have a piece of paper to back it up. If he manages to get his grades up and gets a decent degree for a decent college/university, it opens a surprising amount of doors even if you don't stick with what you qualified in. My sister got a 1st in Biology from a good London uni and she's now a journalist. The only reason she got this job is because she had a piece of paper proving she's got brains. Without those pieces of paper, you have to start at the bottom and work your way up to a level your happy with which is a lot harder and very frustrating.

The second is teach him to lie and help him learn how you fit in. I HATE socializing and office politics with a passion, but over time I have learn't how it works and what you have to do and so when its needed, I can fake it.

 

[Sevre]

Free-thinker alert eh? I say let him stick to his own path,he's obviously smart enough to know where he's going and the consequences.

 

[zari]

We teenagers are held as High Achievers (potential success story) or Juvenile Delinquents (definitely an idiot) with no grey area in between. It frustrates the hell out of me to see this kind of thing, especially when the only way that some people think to combat it is to send around American Dream-esque motivational speakers who stand up and shout about how "we can do it!"

Sometimes it's very difficult not to polarise my own perception of my students, but I think that's largely because I only see them in my own teaching area and it's hard to see anyone as a well rounded individual when you only see one facet of them. It's very easy to categorise them into achievers and non-achievers as a result. I try not to do this, and I think for the most part succeed, except for very disconnected students who will not even engage in conversation, let alone attempt to learn about the content.

I agree that the typical motivational speaker isn't usually that relevent - they've come from unfamiliar backgrounds, can be overzealous, etc. Hard to engage with. Personally I find the valedictory speakers that come to talk to our graduating students much more inspiring (but again, this is a teacher's perspective, not a student's), since they've grown up in the same situation, attended the same school, and typically haven't some outlandish rise to glory and fortune.

Unfortunately, valedictory speakers also tend to all be cast from a similar mold: university entrants (and graduates). While they are a good example to many students, the majority of our graduates are not going straight into university.

So here's a question: if you could get a speaker to come talk to a student body in order to try and convince them to strive for more personal success, who would it be? (Please generalise, doesn't have to be a particular person, just the sort of background/attributes/situation/etc).

 

[minarri]

Because he's still so young, my best advice is to ensure that he realizes there's a difference between refusing to put up with bullshit and with just being a dickweed, and to be careful to avoid burning any bridges.

Aside from that? What APPCRASH said.

 

[sallene]

Holy hell, what a defeatist attitude.
You know there are people out there who actually enjoy what they do for a living, right? Rather that telling him that the world essentially sucks, how about encouraging him (and by the sounds of it yourself) to find some passion for life - find something that he enjoys and is good at and then find an angle to make a living from it. You don't necessarily have to be super qualified to do something that you like - I've had plenty of students (high school level) who've only barely graduated yet not accepted that they're destined to be a wage slave and have gone out found things they've subseqently enjoyed for a career.[1]

Not defeatist. He is simply demoralized at this point. But I find your examples to be misleading. Sure you have known "plenty" but how many exactly out of how many of thousands of graduates and job seekers? I get people wanting to squint there eyes and cross their fingers and push "happy thoughts", but realistically the world is not like that for the majortiy of people, even ones who have a positive outlook adn the motivation to get what they want.

I find what he is feeling is perfectly natural.

Especially in light of the current state of world economies it's a reality that you might get stuck in a job you're not happy in (and be relatively thankful for the fact that you have a job at all), but to use something like that as an excuse to give up and take the attitude that that's the best that there is is just lunacy.

Agian, I find his reaction to be natural given the circumstances and his realization. Thats exactly why he is feeling this way. He is simply is discontent with the choices laid out before him for his future.

The worst assumption here is that the world is a place to escape from, rather than create something out of.

regardless you still need money, whether you are creating or escaping.

I see your question as being a bit flawed. You use the example of bullying and bullying by social exclusion as the consequences for not fitting in with a clique (be it large or small), but you then use that as an argument for rejecting society as a whole.

Not sure where you got that from as that was not my intent nor do I remember writing that.

 

[Labyrinth]

So here's a question: if you could get a speaker to come talk to a student body in order to try and convince them to strive for more personal success, who would it be? (Please generalise, doesn't have to be a particular person, just the sort of background/attributes/situation/etc).

Honestly? Someone who adhered to very Nietzschean philosophies. Hard work, suffering and stress to reach the clear blissful peaks of satisfaction but without the bullshit baggage of would-be motivation. A healthy dose of Seneca is also important.

Nietzsche's general idea was that to truly experience the great joys of life, and to attain them, one needs to go through hard times first. He wished suffering and failure upon his loved ones that they may better see the light at the end of the tunnel once they'd put the hard work in. However I don't read anything in his philosophies about striving for something so clearly unattainable that it becomes a pointless, bitter dream.

Seneca, conversely, was more along the lines of "If I imagine the worst thing that could possibly happen to me as being the expected norm, everything else will be better." It's pessimism, but it helps.

My main issue with motivational speakers is the way they preach "If you want it badly enough, you'll get it! If not, it's totally your own fault." There are circumstances outside of an individual's control or willpower which can prevent that from happening. We're not all going to be astronauts or professional athletes, no matter how much we may desire that position. If people are taught that they can, if only they put in the effort, then when it turns out that they cannot self esteem and guilt set in. Far from healthy.

 

[Borrowed Time]

So here's a question: if you could get a speaker to come talk to a student body in order to try and convince them to strive for more personal success, who would it be? (Please generalise, doesn't have to be a particular person, just the sort of background/attributes/situation/etc).

Honestly? Someone who adhered to very Nietzschean philosophies. Hard work, suffering and stress to reach the clear blissful peaks of satisfaction but without the bullshit baggage of would-be motivation. A healthy dose of Seneca is also important.

Nietzsche's general idea was that to truly experience the great joys of life, and to attain them, one needs to go through hard times first. He wished suffering and failure upon his loved ones that they may better see the light at the end of the tunnel once they'd put the hard work in. However I don't read anything in his philosophies about striving for something so clearly unattainable that it becomes a pointless, bitter dream.

Seneca, conversely, was more along the lines of "If I imagine the worst thing that could possibly happen to me as being the expected norm, everything else will be better." It's pessimism, but it helps.

My main issue with motivational speakers is the way they preach "If you want it badly enough, you'll get it! If not, it's totally your own fault." There are circumstances outside of an individual's control or willpower which can prevent that from happening. We're not all going to be astronauts or professional athletes, no matter how much we may desire that position. If people are taught that they can, if only they put in the effort, then when it turns out that they cannot self esteem and guilt set in. Far from healthy.

At the same time though, handing everyone a trophy for every time they take a piss isn't the correct way either. Yes, the "motivational" approach won't work for everyone, but can you truly tell me with a straight face that if you wanted enough to actually rise up from a "cast" position and actually get into aeronautics, quantum physics or psychiatry you couldn't apply yourself enough? Hell, half the computer market is run by garage tinkerers. People who sit there and apply themselves, think long and hard and come up with amazing ideas.

Yes not everyone is going to have those great ideas, but learning to deal with disappointment and the futility of life is in itself living. Better that they learn young that this life doesn't hand you a golden goose then later down the road when emotional and physical strain is much more rampant. Yes, everyone is raised differently. I was a teenager just like everyone else at one point, but I learned at a young age that ultimately my decisions are what would lead me through my life. Adapting to what life throws at us is how we learn and grow. Is everyone going to have the opportunity handed to them to go to college? No. Is everyone going to have the opportunity to become an astronaut handed to them? No. But, everyone does have the opportunity to make the choice to get involved in drugs or not. Everyone does have the opportunity to apply themselves in school or not. Everyone does have the opportunity to attempt to make friends or not. All of those things will heavily and directly enhance or retard your chances at attaining your "dreams".