So apparently I have a lot to learn about "teaching the childrens" to be obedient little cogs.

[Labyrinth]

*Snip*

This is where Nietzsche comes into it.

 

[zari]

*snip philosophy*

My main issue with motivational speakers is the way they preach "If you want it badly enough, you'll get it! If not, it's totally your own fault." There are circumstances outside of an individual's control or willpower which can prevent that from happening. We're not all going to be astronauts or professional athletes, no matter how much we may desire that position. If people are taught that they can, if only they put in the effort, then when it turns out that they cannot self esteem and guilt set in. Far from healthy.

If you'll forgive me saying so (and with more than a little tongue in my cheek), your descriptions of Nietzsche and Seneca's outlooks both sound like something designed to make the great unwashed masses more happy with their lot Hard work leading to it's own reward in one case, and thinking of how much worse it could be in the other. Very Heaven and Hell *grin*

I certainly agree with you on the position of motivational speakers though, they do tend to be very pie in the sky. I wouldn't disregard motivation altogether though, just be more realisic.

What I disagree with (and in general, not responding to your position) is the perception that you either aim high or be a fatalist and accept what you perceive as your lot in life. I suppose it is a bit of a confusion between dreams and goals. Goals you should expect to achieve because they take into account your current situation (barring things beyond your control). Dreams on the other hand are more of an 'if only', which discount current reality. Too many people are told to follow their dreams rather than set goals.

 

[Borrowed Time]

*Snip*

This is where Nietzsche comes into it.

Then I guess I'm pretty much an anomoly because I've yet to hit my hard times truly. I've been through much less crap in my life then the average person. Maybe that's what makes me more easily spout, "If you want it badly enough, you'll get it! If not, it's totally your own fault." *shrug*

Then again I'm a staunch believer in people taking responsiblity for their actions and find the laying of blame to be a complete cop out. Of course there are things you can't change in life, but you can change how you react to them and how you learn from them. As cliche as "When life hands you lemons, you make lemonade." is, I find much truth in it. Of course some people hate lemonade, but that's beside the point. Then add some cranberries damnit!

I wasn't handed anything either. I began working for my parents very young and had my first actual job for a local company at 13 and have worked ever since, developing a good work ethic. Yes, as i said before, I'm a security guard, but in all honesty i love my job. I get to intimidate the crap out of people by being the big guy in the corner that gives dirty looks while at the same time I don't have to deal with people! Win/win! Yes i don't make a 6 figure salary but I can provide for my family. I guess part of the issue too is just where on the bar does one set their goals? Just what does it take in life to make you "happy". I'm less about the materials and more about the people. *shrug*

I guess I'm just easily entertained is all. ^_^ *goes back to counting the ceiling tiles*

 

[Labyrinth]

If you'll forgive me saying so (and with more than a little tongue in my cheek), your descriptions of Nietzsche and Seneca's outlooks both sound like something designed to make the great unwashed masses more happy with their lot Hard work leading to it's own reward in one case, and thinking of how much worse it could be in the other. Very Heaven and Hell *grin*

I certainly agree with you on the position of motivational speakers though, they do tend to be very pie in the sky. I wouldn't disregard motivation altogether though, just be more realisic.

What I disagree with (and in general, not responding to your position) is the perception that you either aim high or be a fatalist and accept what you perceive as your lot in life. I suppose it is a bit of a confusion between dreams and goals. Goals you should expect to achieve because they take into account your current situation (barring things beyond your control). Dreams on the other hand are more of an 'if only', which discount current reality. Too many people are told to follow their dreams rather than set goals.

Careful now, you might choke on that tongue, and if you don't it looks a little strange pushing your face out to that degree. Like a cancer. A cancer of giggles.

Anyway.

The issue for people my age is finding the middle ground between apathy (fatalism is something else, it's "oh, I was always guided to this position, be it good or bad") and the kind of hyperbolic belief in their own capacity which can later lead to disappointment. This is why people who think that much of their eventual life is based on contextual influences appear so dismal. They don't have presented the kind of middle-ground of that yes, the world is a heavy, nail-shod weight upon the shoulders, but it's possible to work that it something worthwhile and still carry the burden. You might not be tapdancing on the moon, but you'll at least Cha Cha. However without the understanding that one is not entirely responsible for their lot, there comes disappointment.

Social context has a lot to do with this, with social expectations and support playing a huge part. Cynicism here is worthwhile because it means that people aren't blamed for things out of their control.

 

[1ronJ4m]

Well I'm quite the same as your nephew... except the grades. I'm lucky cuz I always get A's by learning almost nothing. And the world is bullshit. Being originial is for the ignorant fools. You can't be original if you want to be. Thinking you're different is ridiculous. Indeed, everyone has a different personality and they own problems, but we're all miserable bastards more or less. Better get used to it.

 

[zari]

Not defeatist. He is simply demoralized at this point. But I find your examples to be misleading. Sure you have known "plenty" but how many exactly out of how many of thousands of graduates and job seekers? I get people wanting to squint there eyes and cross their fingers and push "happy thoughts", but realistically the world is not like that for the majortiy of people, even ones who have a positive outlook adn the motivation to get what they want.

With respect to the thousands of graduates, oddly enough I can only speak from personal experience, so I won't make up statistics or generalise for the sake of argument. I will say that it is personally significant, and from a relatively small sample size, since we are talking disaffected teens. And by 'personally significant' I mean less than all, and more than none - enough to give me encouragement that a pessimistic outlook and discouraging environments can be overcome to achieve personal success. I'm not speaking of 'success' in the sense of a high paying job or generic success, I mean something that you find fulfilling.

regardless you still need money, whether you are creating or escaping.

I don't mean creating in the physical sense, I mean creating choices for yourself when you are not content with the choices that others present you.

Not sure where you got that from as that was not my intent nor do I remember writing that.

Well you stated bullying/exclusion as consequences of not fitting into society, which really describes a small scale social situation, and your examples were schools and workplaces. However to me (and it could be my fault for misreading if it wasn't your intention) it seemed that you were using this as a basis for criticising society as a whole.

 

[Borrowed Time]

*snip philosophy*

My main issue with motivational speakers is the way they preach "If you want it badly enough, you'll get it! If not, it's totally your own fault." There are circumstances outside of an individual's control or willpower which can prevent that from happening. We're not all going to be astronauts or professional athletes, no matter how much we may desire that position. If people are taught that they can, if only they put in the effort, then when it turns out that they cannot self esteem and guilt set in. Far from healthy.

If you'll forgive me saying so (and with more than a little tongue in my cheek), your descriptions of Nietzsche and Seneca's outlooks both sound like something designed to make the great unwashed masses more happy with their lot Hard work leading to it's own reward in one case, and thinking of how much worse it could be in the other. Very Heaven and Hell *grin*

I certainly agree with you on the position of motivational speakers though, they do tend to be very pie in the sky. I wouldn't disregard motivation altogether though, just be more realisic.

What I disagree with (and in general, not responding to your position) is the perception that you either aim high or be a fatalist and accept what you perceive as your lot in life. I suppose it is a bit of a confusion between dreams and goals. Goals you should expect to achieve because they take into account your current situation (barring things beyond your control). Dreams on the other hand are more of an 'if only', which discount current reality. Too many people are told to follow their dreams rather than set goals.

I understand your points here, but what exactly is so detrimental for someone to set goals with a larger dream in mind? And while we are at it, why are people so incredibly concerned with disappointment (in general, not directed at anything you wrote). Learning to deal with disappointment is part of learning to deal with life. Attempting to avoid it is attempting to avoid bettering yourself through life lessons.

 

[zari]

I understand your points here, but what exactly is so detrimental for someone to set goals with a larger dream in mind? And while we are at it, why are people so incredibly concerned with disappointment (in general, not directed at anything you wrote). Learning to deal with disappointment is part of learning to deal with life. Attempting to avoid it is attempting to avoid bettering yourself through life lessons.

Oh I have no problem with setting goals and having dreams, just that people should recognise that many dreams are not realistically achievable. They're nice to have, and your goals may be steps toward a dream, but if you believe that it is achievable and it is not then you're setting yourself up for a breakdown at some point. All I'm saying is be realistic as well as optimistic

 

[Borrowed Time]

I understand your points here, but what exactly is so detrimental for someone to set goals with a larger dream in mind? And while we are at it, why are people so incredibly concerned with disappointment (in general, not directed at anything you wrote). Learning to deal with disappointment is part of learning to deal with life. Attempting to avoid it is attempting to avoid bettering yourself through life lessons.

Oh I have no problem with setting goals and having dreams, just that people should recognise that many dreams are not realistically achievable. They're nice to have, and your goals may be steps toward a dream, but if you believe that it is achievable and it is not then you're setting yourself up for a breakdown at some point. All I'm saying is be realistic as well as optimistic

Unfortunately (taken from an optimist, pessimist poll taken about a week ago) many believe that realistic viewpoints go hand in hand with pessimism. I personally view myself as a realistic pessimist. I make plans, I expect them to fail so I'm ready to make the needed changes when problems arise, but that doesn't stop me from making plans to begin with. A strange mixing of ideas I guess.

Also, that doesn't really answer my second question =P. What is so wrong with disappointment/breakdowns? Is it a lack of belief in an individual's ability to cope? Far too often, especially in the youth, I see a sense of entitlement that's been put in place by the whole "gold star for picking your nose" approach. By denying the ability to deal with disappointment at a young age, we set our children up for crippling disappointments.

It's the same as allergies. A child (generally, not all cases, extremism is bad) who is kept in an allergen free environment won't develop the proper response in their body to deal with said allergen. So instead, their body will go overboard and they will have "allergies". Children that are exposed to lots of allergens (yay for playing outside in the mud!) at a young age tend to have a stronger immune system (with proper diet) and less allergies. The same could be true with mental development. Those that deal with small disappointments regularly would in fact develop the mental capacity to, as it's said "roll with the punches."

Yes I'm a simple man and use a lot of layman's terms, but I don't see how my logic is flawed.

 

[zari]

Also, that doesn't really answer my second question =P. What is so wrong with disappointment/breakdowns? Is it a lack of belief in an individual's ability to cope? Far too often, especially in the youth, I see a sense of entitlement that's been put in place by the whole "gold star for picking your nose" approach. By denying the ability to deal with disappointment at a young age, we set our children up for crippling disappointments.

Oh sorry.
What I see is the difference between being prepared to be disappointed when you don't succeed (ie reality), and setting yourself up for disappointment by setting unrealistic goals (or having them set for you). One gives you a healthy perspective of what it and is not realistic, while the other leaves the impression of the impossibility of success.

I think what you say about an unrealistic sense of entitlement (which I agree is disappointingly common these days) is all too similar to the opposite, where failure becomes a way of life and the reason not to try.

There's nothing wrong with failure. What is wrong is not reflecting on failure to determine how to succeed in the future.

 

[RagnorakTres]

Keep doin' what you're doin'. He'll learn what he wants to do and eventually do it, whether that's making music on the street corner or becoming a CEO of Fortune 500 company. The problem today is that no one does what they want to do, they do what is financially or personally expedient. We as a culture seem to have decided that you can't have what you want without wasting lots of time getting there. I want to be a computer programmer. I'm teaching myself, I'm going to apply to a technical college after High School and then me and a friend are gonna start a game design company. Simple, elegant, quick. Will it make us lots of money? Maybe, maybe not. Do we particularly care? No. We'll be doing what we want on our own terms. We'll be having fun. Our culture seems to have lost sight of that goal.

 

[Woem]

Spoiler: This.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

Teaching them to be obedient little cogs...I'm sorry, but the first thing that came to my mind was Gears of War. Teaching them to be Gears...

I think seeing a gear walking down the street would make most people piss themselves

I don't intend to 'fit in' any time soon and I respect people that are independent and can develop their own opinions. But I do agree that a life where you refuse to become part of 'the system' will be more difficult than allowing yourself to be consumed... I think I'm starting to make this sound a bit odd, but I stand by my viewpoint.

I say you befriend him and help him along where he needs it (I'm not saying let him become a drunk who does nothing and you pay him for it), but obviously you give a crap about him.

There aren't enough free-thinkers in the world as I know it...

 

[matnatz]

He can do what he wants as long as he enjoys himself. I'm a starving artist, so far, I've done nothing useful, but I'm happy... I suppose.

 

[Jirlond]

Oh wow, I can empathise with his "oh fuck it all" attitude. Highschool is a bad time to be disillusioned but that kind of thing happens all too often. My peers are not the Ignorant Little Children that so many people would have the be, nor are they the juvenile delinquents that others portray them as simply because of this.

Simply put it's difficult if not impossible to convince someone who's become disillusioned that it's worth bothering any more. Regurgitated answers like "Yes mum/dad/teacher/other, I'll do something about it" mask the same attitude with an arbitrary response so that said person would shut up and go away. In short we will stubbornly make our own mistakes, be they the same as our parents made or vastly different, devastating or minor. It's not a self-destructive mechanism so much as it is the need to break away and discover for ones self. Tragic that it often results in apathy.

We teenagers are held as High Achievers (potential success story) or Juvenile Delinquents (definitely an idiot) with no grey area in between. It frustrates the hell out of me to see this kind of thing, especially when the only way that some people think to combat it is to send around American Dream-esque motivational speakers who stand up and shout about how "we can do it!"

I think you get it more than most posters on here. His attitude isnt one of emo - "oh woah is me" sort of attitude, he has simply awakened early to the fact that he may very well end up in a life of repetition and mediocrity, no matter what he does or tries. Its a very demoralizing realization to come to at his age and can be very suffocating.


Like I said that other posters may not have read, I have a few ideas to try to get him at least looking forward with a bit better outlook on the future, but I dont know if thats going to work.

You can't win every fight, but does that mean we shouldnt fight?

 

[Rolling Thunder]

A word of advice from the world's most cynical and hard-nosed bastard: People who get depressing or mundane lives get them because they deserve them. In short, because they didn't work hard at work, school or life in itself, wound up in mundanity and are now stuck there, desperately trying to push all their self-hatred onto the world by crying out that 'The world is mundane/pathetic!'

You know what, it isn't. It can be bloody, violent, destructive, chaotic and look like the very plains of hell, but life is very rarely mundane. I'm currently working in a factory, 8 hours a day, and my life is hardly mundane. Yes, it is now, but a year ago I was in Africa, looking at elephants, watching bushfires burn and dodging psychotic taxi drivers. In a few months, I'll be in university. The only reason my life is mundane, right now, is because the profit from that mundanity is useful to fund my real life.

Yes, we may not all be supermen, but I find it frankly pathetic the sheer number of people all too willing to simply throw up their hands and proclaim: 'It's impossible' or "I can't manage that". Failure is a weakness, and weakness is but a prelude to death*.

To summarise my point of view: Your life will be exceptional if you damn well make it exceptional. Drink, smoke, screw, take drugs, fly around the world, work hard and take every oppurtunity with both hands. Fear nothing.


*Very Sturm und Drang at the moment.

 

[strength of 7 men]

Okay, so he is 16 and probaly just wants to be left alone to do his own thing...tell your sister not to be worried because things normally work themselves out...and like you said he can see the world for what it is so he should have no problems.

 

[Gaderael]

I think you did all that you could do, and that your sister and her husband need to take more responsibility. They are his parents after all.

Also, I'm sure most people hear know that grade and friends aren't the be all, end all in life. As he gets older, he'll meet some people who will be very good friends, most likely forming bonds much stronger then what the 'normal' kids have with their friends.

He is only sixteen, I'm sure by the time senior year comes around, he will realize he has to pick himself up in the grades department so that he can go on to study whatever it is he is passionate about.