So, apparently WW is pretty good.

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So far I am getting the impression that the problem with this movie is that its just another Superhero movie? Nothing that truly brakes the mold?

 

[Natemans]

So far I am getting the impression that the problem with this movie is that its just another Superhero movie? Nothing that truly brakes the mold?

No, not really. The film is getting great positive reviews and the DCEU finally made a good one. (Note: I'm speaking of the majority. If you like the other DCEU movies, that's fine. More power to you.)

Now as for Wonder Woman, it is a really good movie, possibly one of DC's best live action films in a few years. It does have a few flaws (then again not every film is perfect): some of the CGI is kinda not good in a few spots, the overuse of slow motion made me annoyed after a while, some of the 3rd act is really weak especially with the final fight and the villains are underused.

But despite those flaws, this is really solid. The script is mostly good, the characters are likable and far interesting, some of the cinematography is gorgeous (mainly Diana's home), the acting is really good (I was having skepticism about Gal Gadot since I found her really dull in BvS and the trailers, but I was wrong. She's really good in this.), the chemistry between Diana and Steve is great and the film does a great job of embodying DC's philosophy with their characters. I still don't like the DCEU, but I wish they made movies just as good as this. I'd give it an 8/10.

 

[Natemans]

Yep it's pretty good. It falls over on the ending in my opinion but that shouldn't stop you from enjoying the rest of it.

Spoiler

They wrote themselves into a corner, everyone expects Ares but they establish they don't need Ares, but what the heck Ares anyway

Yeah, I liked the message they were going for that Ares isn't doing this and not everyone is influenced by him. It was a cool direction and an interesting take, but nope, threw that out the window and adhered to that cliche.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

snip

Yesssss.

Let the hate flow through you.

Nah, I'll be positive and agree that Gal Gadot came to slay. Too bad the screenwriter couldn't keep up.

 

[helwyr]

This movie felt like Captain America and Thor adopted a little girl and raised it in a land covered in rain instead of sun.

 

[Kolby Jack]

I loved the movie. Also, am I the only one who feels like Wonder Woman's unbelievably kind and warm character kind of makes Captain America's character less likable? Not a LOT, but just a bit. Like Wonder Woman finding solace and positivity in the clusterfuck that was World War 1 somehow makes Captain America's earnest "don't like bullies" attitude in already-heavily-romanticized World War 2 feel cheap by comparison.

Also, I heard people thought the finale was weak, but other than a bit of dodgy CGI, I thought it was fine. I assume the people who thought it was weak weren't expecting Ares to actually show up and fight and keep this a very human story. I mean, that's an artsy route I guess but Ares is one of Wonder Woman's main enemies in the comics, OF COURSE he'd show up.

 

[wizzy555]

Also, I heard people thought the finale was weak, but other than a bit of dodgy CGI, I thought it was fine. I assume the people who thought it was weak weren't expecting Ares to actually show up and fight and keep this a very human story. I mean, that's an artsy route I guess but Ares is one of Wonder Woman's main enemies in the comics, OF COURSE he'd show up.

Yes but this is a weakness in the story, because if Ares isn't driving the wars then the motivation against him is undermined. It makes it out that she realised that men are complicated and capable of evil themselves but she should just kill Ares anyway because he's kind of an arsehole. Some good dialogue could have saved it but it wasn't great.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I loved the movie. Also, am I the only one who feels like Wonder Woman's unbelievably kind and warm character kind of makes Captain America's character less likable? Not a LOT, but just a bit. Like Wonder Woman finding solace and positivity in the clusterfuck that was World War 1 somehow makes Captain America's earnest "don't like bullies" attitude in already-heavily-romanticized World War 2 feel cheap by comparison.

Not at all. I thought they were both different takes on what is (surprisingly, given the medium) a refreshingly offbeat character. Earnest, forthright, driven to do the right thing. Wonder Woman's appeal came through her innocence and completely unvarnished emotion and desire to help. There was a purity of purpose and warmth of character that is very beguiling. Character arc insists she'll have lost that post Episode 1, and you wonder how the actress will be able to handle that paradigm shift (as her appearance in BvS wasn't anywhere near as involving).

Evans' Captain America, on the other hand, seems very beaten down. There's still a fundamental iron bar of conviction at the heart of him, but he's wrapped it up in layers of disillusionment and sadness. I actually find his performance in that role to be one of the 3-4 best of the entire modern era of superhero films. He managed to make an entirely uninteresting character fascinating. In the hands of a less nuanced actor Captain America could have been a boring Boy Scout, always piping about freedom and the American Way while biffing baddies on the chin.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

The girlfriend and I went to an early showing on Thursday evening and we both loved it. I'm the comics nerd of the two of us but through osmosis she's gotten pretty interested and has become a pretty big Wonder Woman fan.

There are definitely some problems with the movie- the third act is definitely the weakest and the climactic battle with the big bad is a little disappointing. It's like they edited in a scene from BvS into this film what with all the CGI environments and flashy effects.

All of this can be forgiven though thanks to the casting and writing. Gadot and Pine are great on screen together- completely selling the (let's be honest) ridiculous origin and parts of the Wonder Woman character. Gadot plays the fish-out-of-water bits wonderfully. The ice cream scene (reminiscent of something I've seen in the DC animated movies) was so charming and they even find a way to bring the sexual themes and lesbianism that are sometimes a part of the character into the film in a way that was funny and a neat call out to fans.

Honestly, I get very emotional about super hero stuff and I'm a little sappy, but the first big action set-piece in Europe made me shed a tear. Seeing a genuinely and unerringly moral Wonder Woman leading the charge into the meat grinder that is WWI and doing what is right no matter what fucking GOT me. Sitting next to my girlfriend and all of the other women in the theater who have been waiting for this movie for so long only added to it. Plus I was just so happy to finally have a DC movie that was treating the characters accurately and with respect. I have said a lot of shit about the DCEU movies but at the end of the day I want them to be great and I finally feel like there's hope for these movies. Bravo Patty Jenkins and co.

 

[happyninja42]

Also, I heard people thought the finale was weak, but other than a bit of dodgy CGI, I thought it was fine. I assume the people who thought it was weak weren't expecting Ares to actually show up and fight and keep this a very human story. I mean, that's an artsy route I guess but Ares is one of Wonder Woman's main enemies in the comics, OF COURSE he'd show up.

Yes but this is a weakness in the story, because if Ares isn't driving the wars then the motivation against him is undermined. It makes it out that she realised that men are complicated and capable of evil themselves but she should just kill Ares anyway because he's kind of an arsehole. Some good dialogue could have saved it but it wasn't great.

I got the impression that Ares was just feeding her some shit with that line. I mean he was clearly manipulating events on all of the sides of the conflict. For him to manipulate all the major players, and then try and step back and say "hey, I didn't have anything to do with this" is just silly. Our own real world legal system would still consider that type of behavior criminal, so he's far from innocent in the events. And also, there was that bit after she kills him, where the German soldiers all take off their masks and helmets and look around, as if they just woke from some dream. So I think they were implying that he in fact, WAS manipulating them directly. I mean, if the war was simply due to "the evil in mens' hearts", then why would the Germans suddenly stop all conflict with the 5 people who attacked their base.

Remember, when she killed the red herring, she looked around, expecting to see the soldiers snap out of their state, as if waking from a dream. But that's exactly what DOES happen when she kills the real Ares. It's very apparent, as they cut between like 5 scenes of the soldiers doing the "whoa, where am I? What's going on?" kind of reaction. Even to the point of hugging the guy they were just fighting a minute ago? Sorry but if the true evil was all in their hearts, this wouldn't have happened. So some of it had to be Ares' influence.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I got the impression that Ares was just feeding her some shit with that line. I mean he was clearly manipulating events on all of the sides of the conflict. For him to manipulate all the major players, and then try and step back and say "hey, I didn't have anything to do with this" is just silly. Our own real world legal system would still consider that type of behavior criminal, so he's far from innocent in the events. And also, there was that bit after she kills him, where the German soldiers all take off their masks and helmets and look around, as if they just woke from some dream. So I think they were implying that he in fact, WAS manipulating them directly. I mean, if the war was simply due to "the evil in mens' hearts", then why would the Germans suddenly stop all conflict with the 5 people who attacked their base.

Remember, when she killed the red herring, she looked around, expecting to see the soldiers snap out of their state, as if waking from a dream. But that's exactly what DOES happen when she kills the real Ares. It's very apparent, as they cut between like 5 scenes of the soldiers doing the "whoa, where am I? What's going on?" kind of reaction. Even to the point of hugging the guy they were just fighting a minute ago? Sorry but if the true evil was all in their hearts, this wouldn't have happened. So some of it had to be Ares' influence.

That scene was pretty confusing.

You could take it as Ares controlling them, but then that would mean that Ares was lying, and that one of the major themes of the movie was bullshit. Which is just dumbass writing. If they really intended to do that, then my opinion of this movie would turn sour real quick.

I like to take it as the Germans just being glad to be alive. Like that scene in Battlefield 1's prologue, except not as well done.

 

[Kolby Jack]

Also, I heard people thought the finale was weak, but other than a bit of dodgy CGI, I thought it was fine. I assume the people who thought it was weak weren't expecting Ares to actually show up and fight and keep this a very human story. I mean, that's an artsy route I guess but Ares is one of Wonder Woman's main enemies in the comics, OF COURSE he'd show up.

Yes but this is a weakness in the story, because if Ares isn't driving the wars then the motivation against him is undermined. It makes it out that she realised that men are complicated and capable of evil themselves but she should just kill Ares anyway because he's kind of an arsehole. Some good dialogue could have saved it but it wasn't great.

Did you miss the part where as soon as she turned down Ares' offer he decided to kill her? She killed him by directing his own attack back onto him. He was the aggressor in their fight entirely.

Also, he was a bit more than just "kind of an asshole" if you think about it. He was the primary architect of the armistice that ends World War 1. If you know your history, you know that that armistice was basically what caused WORLD WAR 2. Ares' line that he was not the god of war but instead the "god of truth" was (ironically) a lie. He clearly had a hand in the war, even if he didn't have to MAKE anyone start it.

 

[Kolby Jack]

I loved the movie. Also, am I the only one who feels like Wonder Woman's unbelievably kind and warm character kind of makes Captain America's character less likable? Not a LOT, but just a bit. Like Wonder Woman finding solace and positivity in the clusterfuck that was World War 1 somehow makes Captain America's earnest "don't like bullies" attitude in already-heavily-romanticized World War 2 feel cheap by comparison.

Not at all. I thought they were both different takes on what is (surprisingly, given the medium) a refreshingly offbeat character. Earnest, forthright, driven to do the right thing. Wonder Woman's appeal came through her innocence and completely unvarnished emotion and desire to help. There was a purity of purpose and warmth of character that is very beguiling. Character arc insists she'll have lost that post Episode 1, and you wonder how the actress will be able to handle that paradigm shift (as her appearance in BvS wasn't anywhere near as involving).

Evans' Captain America, on the other hand, seems very beaten down. There's still a fundamental iron bar of conviction at the heart of him, but he's wrapped it up in layers of disillusionment and sadness. I actually find his performance in that role to be one of the 3-4 best of the entire modern era of superhero films. He managed to make an entirely uninteresting character fascinating. In the hands of a less nuanced actor Captain America could have been a boring Boy Scout, always piping about freedom and the American Way while biffing baddies on the chin.

I'm not really referring to Cap's later movies, those are fine. I just feel like First Avenger Cap never really earned his earnestness and good guy nature. We never really see WHY he is as nice as he is. He's basically Captain America from the first moment he's on screen, just without the enhancements. Yes, we see him getting beat up by a bully, but speaking from experience that doesn't turn most people into a brave boy scout; quite the opposite, in fact. Wonder Woman's naivety and goodness are readily apparent from her isolated, peaceful upbringing.

Moreover, Wonder Woman's main battle is with the concept of human evil itself (and Ares), whereas Cap's is with... super Nazis? Who are never shown doing anything worse than the actual Nazis did. Hydra became much more compelling later, at least.

 

[happyninja42]

That scene was pretty confusing.

You could take it as Ares controlling them, but then that would mean that Ares was lying,

I see no reason that he wouldn't lie. I mean, he said at one point "I'm not the God of War, I'm the God of Truth", which you know, if that's not true, and seeing as Ares is the god of WAR, that means he was lying. So I don't see any reason to believe everything the manipulating god behind the scenes said.

and that one of the major themes of the movie was bullshit. Which is just dumbass writing. If they really intended to do that, then my opinion of this movie would turn sour real quick.

Which major theme of the film would be bullshit if Ares was lying? The fact that humans are willing to fight each other doesn't exclude the idea that Ares might be directly manipulating their baser urges to cause conflict where their might not have been before. Sort of like how being really drunk might compel someone to actually start a fist fight, when normally they would never do such a thing. Think of it as him breathing on the embers of their own anger, until it becomes a fire. Sure, the ember was already there, but that doesn't mean he didn't help it along.

I like to take it as the Germans just being glad to be alive. Like that scene in Battlefield 1's prologue, except not as well done.

Never saw that scene, but I still think it's an indication that those troops at least, were directly under his control. I mean, it's such a marked difference in behavior. Fighting tooth and nail while Ares lives, then when he dies, they all look around like they just woke up from a dream, shocked and surprised, and hugging each other (including the people they were shooting at 5 seconds before). That's just too sharp of a contrast in behavior for me to think it's "we're just glad to be alive" reaction, and more "wow, my head is suddenly clear of this anger, why the fuck am I shooting guns at people?" kind of thing. Sure it might not be, but that's what I take from it.

My big question though, is about WW's mom on the island. What was that shit about "we can't let her know the truth, if she knows the truth he will find her sooner" ?? That made zero sense given what actually happens in the film. He even says that he knew who she was the moment he saw her. So her ignorance didn't shield her from Ares. He saw through her immediately. So what type of protection would ignorance provide her? That made zero sense to me.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Was there anything of this movie that confirms all those rumors that the movie is a mess?

 

[happyninja42]

Was there anything of this movie that confirms all those rumors that the movie is a mess?

Not that I saw. It was well structured, evenly paced, if a little rushed at times. The plot and personal motivations of the characters made sense, and were believable. Their interactions felt realistic to how actual humans would speak to each other in such a situation.

It wasn't a mindblowing piece of cinema, but it WAS a very well crafted, simple, standard story. Some might consider it too typical and standard, but I've never really had a problem with a decent movie that is well made, and does a good job telling the story it's telling. Not every movie can blow my mind, and even if they could, that would eventually become tedious simply due to it always happening. My opinion on the movie is that it did a good, solid job, telling the story it wanted to tell. It had some flaws here and there, but they were minor ones for me. None of them were gaping plot holes like goatsee, and the characters weren't engaging in stupid behavior simply to generate conflict. I was never bored with the movie, and was genuinely thrilled at several points in the story.

 

[Dragonlayer]

I have one very important question that will determine whether or not I will give this film a chance.

Are the German soldiers portrayed as a competent and legitimate threat, or as cackling yet utterly ineffectual proto-Nazis who are going to use radioactive moon-rock super-weapons to blow up the world and exist only to be effortlessly beaten up by Wonder Woman?

Spoiler

The main German villain, General Ludendorff, does seem to come across as someone who desperately wants to be the Red Skull - even going so far as to kill one of his captains who makes a perfectly legitimate observation - an act I'm fairly confident in the German Army of the Kaiser's time would have been a one way trip to the gallows by way of a swift court martial. However he and Dr. Poison are outliers (seriously; one weak scene is the pair of them doing this evil laugh thing that's straight out of the Boris and Natasha Badinov playbook) and while it is cathartic to see them fight to liberate a village in France I personally never got the impression that the poor bastards in the other trench were mustache twirlers.

Again, that's only my impression based on my first showing. I'm going again and perhaps with a more critical eye I'll pick up more but I like the idea that the movie closes on.

Spoiler

Hmmm, I suppose they *have* to have the evil German villain and throw in some idiot executions of his own troops for good measure....wait wait wait, hang on! Why do they have to do that!? Why is Wonder Woman fighting against the Germans when, I assume that as an Amazon, she shouldn't have any cultural/political affinity with the Entente whatsoever? Aren't they supposed to be sealing themselves off from the rest of the world?

Like I said, the movie is by no means perfect. Ludendorff would probably have ended up a hero of the Nazi party in the DCEU. As for her motivation to side with Entente, the first contact she had with the Germans was

Spoiler

them storming her island to kill Steve Trevor as a spy (which is fair enough on its own) but they act with no caution whatsoever coming ashore on an island that they have literally passed through a magic fog to reach. So in short; they kill dozens of people Diana has known for five thousand years including Antiope; her aunt, the general of the army and the one who trained her in secret until Hippolyta allowed her to train formally.

For what its worth, while she does basically hand the German's their arses in the fight scenes, she's NOT dropping quips like Buffy the Vampire Slayer while she's doing it and there is little to visually distinguish the British and German troops other than their uniform. They all look haggard, tired and confused: they fight as well as they can but fact is Diana is a massive force multiplier. It would be like giving the British at Rorke's Drift the equipment of a modern infantry regiment.

Spoiler

Ah fair enough then, I suppose I can put aside my rampant Germanophilia in that case and give the movie a mostly snark-free viewing. Thanks for the posts, you've been very helpful!

Oh wait, just remembered one more thing! You mentioned the diabolical Ludendorff and the obviously totally friendly DR POISON: does this turn out to be like the first Captain America movie where there's an evil subfaction hiding inside the ranks of the historical enemy? And when you say "Ludendorff",
do you mean the actual Erich Ludendorff?

 

[Dragonlayer]

For example, see SS Oberstgruppenfuhrer Tavington of His Majesty's Redcoats casually shooting unarmed wounded, innocent civilians and then locking entire villages inside churches and burning them alive in The Patriot, because apparently America in 1776 was actually the Eastern Front, 1944.

Not wanting to derail the thread but as a historian I was compelled to add this small bit:
Tavington's character was based (loosely) on Banastre Tarleton, cavalry officer and all around asshat. Among the accusations made against him were 1) ordering his men to bayonet the bodies of the enemy for 15 minutes after a battle to ensure no survivors, 2) ordering an 8 year old's throat to be slit because the kid might reveal his cavalry's movements to the colonials, and 3) when at a British officer's soiree he was heard to claim that he had "lain more women in America than any other British Army officer." To which another officer was heard to say "Don't you mean raped more women?"

As an aside note:

I had to go looking through the forum manually, like some sort of pre-industrial crazy person!

Hey Rom, when did you come back to 21st century Earth and make an account? (please tell me that was actually the character you were referencing)

Hmmmm! Interesting: see, I was already aware of the real source of inspiration for Tavington, *and* that he was one of the more ruthless British officers during the war, so I wouldn't have minded the odd butchery here and there (nor am I naive enough to believe that criminal behaviour doesn't happen in every war). But it was the church burning scene that was an atrocity too far from my willing suspension of disbelief to handle, since they'd blatantly stolen it from an entirely different conflict, and had already framed the war in fairly black and white terms (granted, it's essentially the story of Mel Gibson's revenge against Jason Isaacs rather than a nuanced look at war, and as much as I rag on it here, I actually do quite enjoy the film).

And alas, I wasn't making any reference, just trying to point out to the other poster I hadn't gotten their notification without accidentally coming across as a snarky prick!

 

[Kolby Jack]

I have one very important question that will determine whether or not I will give this film a chance.

Are the German soldiers portrayed as a competent and legitimate threat, or as cackling yet utterly ineffectual proto-Nazis who are going to use radioactive moon-rock super-weapons to blow up the world and exist only to be effortlessly beaten up by Wonder Woman?

Spoiler

The main German villain, General Ludendorff, does seem to come across as someone who desperately wants to be the Red Skull - even going so far as to kill one of his captains who makes a perfectly legitimate observation - an act I'm fairly confident in the German Army of the Kaiser's time would have been a one way trip to the gallows by way of a swift court martial. However he and Dr. Poison are outliers (seriously; one weak scene is the pair of them doing this evil laugh thing that's straight out of the Boris and Natasha Badinov playbook) and while it is cathartic to see them fight to liberate a village in France I personally never got the impression that the poor bastards in the other trench were mustache twirlers.

Again, that's only my impression based on my first showing. I'm going again and perhaps with a more critical eye I'll pick up more but I like the idea that the movie closes on.

Spoiler

Hmmm, I suppose they *have* to have the evil German villain and throw in some idiot executions of his own troops for good measure....wait wait wait, hang on! Why do they have to do that!? Why is Wonder Woman fighting against the Germans when, I assume that as an Amazon, she shouldn't have any cultural/political affinity with the Entente whatsoever? Aren't they supposed to be sealing themselves off from the rest of the world?

Like I said, the movie is by no means perfect. Ludendorff would probably have ended up a hero of the Nazi party in the DCEU. As for her motivation to side with Entente, the first contact she had with the Germans was

Spoiler

them storming her island to kill Steve Trevor as a spy (which is fair enough on its own) but they act with no caution whatsoever coming ashore on an island that they have literally passed through a magic fog to reach. So in short; they kill dozens of people Diana has known for five thousand years including Antiope; her aunt, the general of the army and the one who trained her in secret until Hippolyta allowed her to train formally.

For what its worth, while she does basically hand the German's their arses in the fight scenes, she's NOT dropping quips like Buffy the Vampire Slayer while she's doing it and there is little to visually distinguish the British and German troops other than their uniform. They all look haggard, tired and confused: they fight as well as they can but fact is Diana is a massive force multiplier. It would be like giving the British at Rorke's Drift the equipment of a modern infantry regiment.

Spoiler

Ah fair enough then, I suppose I can put aside my rampant Germanophilia in that case and give the movie a mostly snark-free viewing. Thanks for the posts, you've been very helpful!

Oh wait, just remembered one more thing! You mentioned the diabolical Ludendorff and the obviously totally friendly DR POISON: does this turn out to be like the first Captain America movie where there's an evil subfaction hiding inside the ranks of the historical enemy? And when you say "Ludendorff",
do you mean the actual Erich Ludendorff?

Spoiler

Yes, it's Erich Ludendorff, actual real life WW1 general. Although he's not so much the head of an evil subfaction as he is just the only German general willing to go to any lengths to win the war. He's more just a rogue element in the German army. It's not quite a sharp and in some ways troubling divide as between the Nazis and Hydra.

That said, while the name is the same and their attitudes and philosophies towards war are the pretty much the same, there are some key differences between WW Ludendorff and real Ludendorff, chief among them WW Ludendorff lacking a sweet 'stache.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Spoiler

Yes, it's Erich Ludendorff, actual real life WW1 general. Although he's not so much the head of an evil subfaction as he is just the only German general willing to go to any lengths to win the war. He's more just a rogue element in the German army. It's not quite a sharp and in some ways troubling divide as between the Nazis and Hydra.

That said, while the name is the same and their attitudes and philosophies towards war are the pretty much the same, there are some key differences between WW Ludendorff and real Ludendorff, chief among them WW Ludendorff lacking a sweet 'stache.

You also forgot that he takes magic Ancient Greek crack to get shitty super powers. That was just so pointless. They didn't go anywhere with that. He lasted a full 2 seconds against Wonder Woman. If they wanted him to seem to be Ares they should have just made him glorify war and be an asshole period.