So, death penalty

[Fappy]

Also, executions are more expensive than keeping a prisoner alive until they die naturally anyway... fun fact.

I don't know where you get your figures from but that is not only laughably incorrect but doesn't even pass muster with basic common sense... less the guy was arrested when he was like 80 and on his deathbed already

Most people sit on death-row for years, sometimes decades. The paperwork require to execute someone in America is enormous considering all of the appeals and all of that nonsense. Lets put it this way: if they admit they are guilty and don't try to appeal the case or fight it in anyway the execution will likely be much cheaper than life in prison. However, most people will fight these charges until the end and the government has to foot the bill when its all said and done. Multiple trials are extremely expensive.

and you think people who get life sentences don't get the same chances to appeal or won't fight the sentences? either way life or death they both get THE SAME chances to force more appeals and trials and burn money.. . except someone sent to death will always have less time to do so thus statistically cost less... if you remove the death penalty than not only are those people costing more for being imprisoned they also now have the whole rest of their lives to cost even more money with silly appeals and other "nonsense".. oh and then there is the fact that the they may WIN one of those appeals because of judicial bullshit tricks and get released even if they are guilty.. now instead of a dead criminal and some measure of justice we have a free criminal who wasted an asston of taxpayer money and is free to do it again

not to mention all your reasoning has nothing to do with the actual cost of executing someone but the cost of the bullshit the prison has to go through BECAUSE of the people like you who complain about it and force them to go through the extra work... if it wasn't for the bitching those people signed up for execution would be taken out back and shot in the head right after the court case

if you cared so much about innocents being killed and "justice" then you should be putting effort into reforming the justice system not a proven viable penalty

That hurt my brain to read. Utilize grammar properly and I will continue this discussion.

Also, check the link I put in my last post. There are plenty of studies out there that come to the same conclusion. Sure it would be cheap to take someone out behind a shed and shoot them in the head, but you have to prove without a shadow of a doubt that they have committed the crime and that costs a lot of money to do. Too many innocent people ahve been executed in this country.

 

[Mayhaps]

snip

It seems as though you hate people being able to make a case for themselves.
People have been proven innocent after being on death-row for a very long time.

"Since reinstating the death penalty in 1978, California taxpayers have spent roughly $4 billion to fund a dysfunctional death penalty system that has carried out no more than 13 executions."

California?s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually
*Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.

*The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.

*The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year.

*The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.



http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/california-cost-study-2011

I don't believe in the death-penalty, I think it's barbaric.

What if I killed your whole family. Then murdered your friends one by one. Then sent tape after tape to your house showing you all the killings. You would want me to just rot in prison for the rest of my life? To each his own I guess.

I guess I could send him tapes of me running across open fields while he was stuck in a small cell.

 

[Fappy]

Also, executions are more expensive than keeping a prisoner alive until they die naturally anyway... fun fact.

I don't know where you get your figures from but that is not only laughably incorrect but doesn't even pass muster with basic common sense... less the guy was arrested when he was like 80 and on his deathbed already

Most people sit on death-row for years, sometimes decades. The paperwork require to execute someone in America is enormous considering all of the appeals and all of that nonsense. Lets put it this way: if they admit they are guilty and don't try to appeal the case or fight it in anyway the execution will likely be much cheaper than life in prison. However, most people will fight these charges until the end and the government has to foot the bill when its all said and done. Multiple trials are extremely expensive.

and you think people who get life sentences don't get the same chances to appeal or won't fight the sentences? either way life or death they both get THE SAME chances to force more appeals and trials and burn money.. . except someone sent to death will always have less time to do so thus statistically cost less... if you remove the death penalty than not only are those people costing more for being imprisoned they also now have the whole rest of their lives to cost even more money with silly appeals and other "nonsense".. oh and then there is the fact that the they may WIN one of those appeals because of judicial bullshit tricks and get released even if they are guilty.. now instead of a dead criminal and some measure of justice we have a free criminal who wasted an asston of taxpayer money and is free to do it again

not to mention all your reasoning has nothing to do with the actual cost of executing someone but the cost of the bullshit the prison has to go through BECAUSE of the people like you who complain about it and force them to go through the extra work... if it wasn't for the bitching those people signed up for execution would be taken out back and shot in the head right after the court case

if you cared so much about innocents being killed and "justice" then you should be putting effort into reforming the justice system not a proven viable penalty

Also, check the link I put in my last post. There are plenty of studies out there that come to the same conclusion. Sure it would be cheap to take someone out behind a shed and shoot them in the head, but you have to prove without a shadow of a doubt that they have committed the crime and that costs a lot of money to do. Too many innocent people ahve been executed in this country.

lol you should read it yourself... they are proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt" after the first trial ends THE SAME AS ANYONE ELSE... it cost no more except for the fact stupid states like California feel the need to let them sit around in "special" sections which sap more money out because the prison can get away with claiming it cost more.. again that is the justice system, the private prisons and the people approving budget cost fault not the death penalty

Well that's the problem really isn't it. Not everyone says "no death penalty" because they don't like murderers getting executed (though I am one of them). Many say "no death penalty" BECAUSE the justice system is as flawed as it is. The fact that they can and have "proven" innocent men guilty and executed them is an incredibly alarming fact. Why should we have the ability to executive people if we can't even be 100% sure they are actually guilty.

This is a REALLY, REALLY LONG story published in the New Yorker I had to read in college, but its a really good read that puts a lot of this in perspective, I think. I don't expect you to read the whole thing (its 17 pages long), but I'd suggest you give it a shot. It brings up a lot of issues with the justice system and why the death penalty is too risky: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann

 

[Mayhaps]

snip

It seems as though you hate people being able to make a case for themselves.
People have been proven innocent after being on death-row for a very long time.

"Since reinstating the death penalty in 1978, California taxpayers have spent roughly $4 billion to fund a dysfunctional death penalty system that has carried out no more than 13 executions."

California?s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually
*Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.

*The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.

*The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year.

*The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.



http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/california-cost-study-2011

again do you people even read what you post as sources.. opeing line of that report

"Since reinstating the death penalty in 1978, California taxpayers have spent roughly $4 billion to fund a dysfunctional death penalty system that has carried out no more than 13 executions."

IT'S THE SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT IS THE PROBLEM NOT THE ACTUAL DEATH PENALTY... Jesus it's at the top of the report

I very much read it. How do you propose we argue against the death penalty, if not pointing out the flaws of the system?

It's like people not being allowed to argue against the use of oil because it's the means we acquire and use it that's the problem.

edit: me and the guy above me seem to be saying the same thing, you don't have to reply to my post.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I don't believe in the death-penalty, I think it's barbaric.

What if I killed your whole family. Then murdered your friends one by one. Then sent tape after tape to your house showing you all the killings. You would want me to just rot in prison for the rest of my life? To each his own I guess.

I would. Because I wouldn't want to have some part in being a murderer like you. It's like Jeremy Irons said. You crossed the line, but I don't want to join you.

Besides I'm a pacifist at heart so wanting someone dead just isn't in my nature.

 

[Archroy]

According to this wiki page, since 1973 in the USA, there have been 140 cases where a death row inmate was later exonerated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates#United_States

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I think the death penalty is acceptable in only a few very specific circumstances.

1. Evidence means that its impossible for the criminal to be innocent. Under any circumstance. Hundreds of witnesses, CCTV or a proud criminal boasting of his crimes and showing his own evidence to damn himself.

2. 100% unrepentant of their crime, proud, revelled in it.

3. The crime has no rational motive of any description other than sadism or needless cruelty. Cold blooded murder doesnt come under this as one can murder an abuser or rapist for revenge, a poor motive but one thats understandable. A human feeling. Even if it is a poor one. If no motive is present. If crimes were commited only to make others suffer extreme agony or pain or to ruin peoples lives for the sheer sick pleasure of it. That counts. An act of anger on a cheating spouses partner also has a human motive.

Then. And only then. Do i think we can execute these... things. Because anyone who commits an act of murder or torture that fulfills these three roles cannot be called human and i think loses their right to live in society. Theres a point i feel of no return where you become something less than human and fall to utter depravity. These things should not be allowed to exist or drain resources.

EDIT: Got to say that the video was very moving... im not sure on my stance anymore...

 

[hazabaza1]

As long as there is any chance that an innocent person can be executed, no matter how small, it's not worth it.

I'll just leave this here.

Even if these two sexy men didn't agree I'd still say it was wrong.

 

[Mayhaps]

bad analogy is bad... there IS no other way to acquire oil... while the system in place to approve, house then carry out the sentence on people who receive the death penalty can be change in many many ways... for instance why does housing someone on "death row" cost more than housing someone guilty of the same crime in normal max confinement? because the idiots who write the budget allow it not because it actually requires more resources

Yes we can, we can get the things we need for oil from fresh plants. It's just more expensive.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I don't believe in the death-penalty, I think it's barbaric.

What if I killed your whole family. Then murdered your friends one by one. Then sent tape after tape to your house showing you all the killings. You would want me to just rot in prison for the rest of my life? To each his own I guess.

I would. Because I wouldn't want to have some part in being a murderer like you. It's like Jeremy Irons said. You crossed the line, but I don't want to join you.

Besides I'm a pacifist at heart so wanting someone dead just isn't in my nature.

so instead of giving the killer a nice painless quick death you would rather him sit in the horrible confinement of prison miserable and lonely for the rest of his life?... very pacifist and kind of you.. lol

I said I was a pacifist, I never said I was kind or compassionate. Pacifism just means I don't like violence or death in any real life situation (still play violent video games because if I didn't what the fuck else would I play?), it doesn't mean I'm some soft-hearted pussy about everything. If someone commits a crime, they pay their time. If that means life in prison, so be it. Just don't murder the guy in revenge. That's all the death penalty is, it's people collectively wanting revenge on someone. Since when is killing in vengeance a good thing? Sure in Kill Bill it looks cool but in reality it's a fundamentally stupid thing for a civilised society to be doing.

 

[FamoFunk]

I'm against the death penalty. I don't think it's a justifiable thing for any civilised society to still be doing.

Though just to mess up some people's heads I'm very much pro-abortion and pro-assisted suicide. Work that out.

Same here.

But I don't think you can put Abortion and Assisted Suicide in the same league as the death penalty, as they've giving someone a choice to end their life through things like illness and another helps Woman in horrendous situations like rape or their own health.

The Death Penalty is pointless, and can and does kill an innocent person. Also, killing someone for being a killer? Makes no sense...

 

[DANEgerous]

I have to say I support it as long as it is an exceptionally high standard of proof, put simply if someone goes on a killing spree and I stop them by lethal force in my mind they have just received the death penalty by my hands. We skipped the trial tossed due process to the wind convicted the man who was caught in the act of murder and sentenced him to death.

In my mind there is no difference in killing said man on the spot or after a trial his actions are blatant and his guilt clear even if he was controlled by a 3ed party threat he without hesitation murdered innocent people and i would have no hesitation or regret putting him down myself at any point of time.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I don't believe in the death-penalty, I think it's barbaric.

What if I killed your whole family. Then murdered your friends one by one. Then sent tape after tape to your house showing you all the killings. You would want me to just rot in prison for the rest of my life? To each his own I guess.

I would. Because I wouldn't want to have some part in being a murderer like you. It's like Jeremy Irons said. You crossed the line, but I don't want to join you.

Besides I'm a pacifist at heart so wanting someone dead just isn't in my nature.

so instead of giving the killer a nice painless quick death you would rather him sit in the horrible confinement of prison miserable and lonely for the rest of his life?... very pacifist and kind of you.. lol

I said I was a pacifist, I never said I was kind or compassionate. Pacifism just means I don't like violence or death in any real life situation (still play violent video games because if I didn't what the fuck else would I play?), it doesn't mean I'm some soft-hearted pussy about everything. If someone commits a crime, they pay their time. If that means life in prison, so be it. Just don't murder the guy in revenge. That's all the death penalty is, it's people collectively wanting revenge on someone. Since when is killing in vengeance a good thing? Sure in Kill Bill it looks cool but in reality it's a fundamentally stupid thing for a civilised society to be doing.

meh killing in vengeance among other worse sins is what we've done in every single war.. it's usually veiled as "protecting the innocents"... again in a perfect world you would have a point but we live in one that is far far from it and can never be it... again the people who oppose this kind of thing are those who have never really experienced the violence and horrible things humans will do to each other... they are the ones with the luxury of sitting safely in their comfy homes and going off of opinions and no experience

For the record I'm very much anti-war too, so I don't need to worry about any kind of double-standard on that front.