So far, the Witcher 3 seems kind of sexist

[Dragonlayer]

I remember Geralt mentioning Yennifer's distinctive scent of lilac and gooseberries to strangers only twice, both times in the form of a question to discern her location; he's hardly "obsessed".

Spoiler: Sure

While my original comment contained hyperbole, I'm still allowed to think it's weird and creepy and it still took me out of the experience for a moment.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/dandel_loves_chunky/gifs/tumblr_lydjphEHvQ1qf13eq.gifI just think think its a bit disingenuous to frame an innocently asked, plot-important question in tones that suggest he's whipping out a pair of used panties and shoving them in every single Nordling peasant's face, drawling "SNNNNIIIIIIFFFF!" in his best Vincent Price voice.

Much as it would be disengenous of me to draw the conclusion that Call of Duty is creepy hyper-misandrist propaganda, because the overwhelming majority of violent deaths occur to men.

 

[Casual Shinji]

What insane amount of sex scenes does it have that you can't easily ignore? I've heard this arguement from you before, and again, if you don't go looking for it you're not gonna get it.

near the start of game scene with yen.

What sex scene is there, because as I recall Yennifer totally shoots you down if you happen to suggest it. The only "sex" in that intro is Yennifer laying naked with her back to Geralt, and her sitting infront of a mirror in lacey underwear. Unless you're counting the crab creature swimming around Geralt's legs in the tub...

 

[Phasmal]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/dandel_loves_chunky/gifs/tumblr_lydjphEHvQ1qf13eq.gifI just think think its a bit disingenuous to frame an innocently asked, plot-important question in tones that suggest he's whipping out a pair of used panties and shoving them in every single Nordling peasant's face, drawling "SNNNNIIIIIIFFFF!" in his best Vincent Price voice.

Much as it would be disengenous of me to draw the conclusion that Call of Duty is creepy hyper-misandrist propaganda, because the overwhelming majority of violent deaths occur to men.

Well, yeah, but that's not what I was doing, because I didn't say that.
I'mma leave it here, though, because this is getting weird. People get weirdly defensive of this kinda stuff. I'm not bothered if you think CoD is a man-killing sim for feminazis. Try not to be bothered that I think Geralt asking people if they've recently sniffed his girl is weird.

Live and let get creeped out, basically.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I just think think its a bit disingenuous to frame an innocently asked, plot-important question in tones that suggest he's whipping out a pair of used panties and shoving them in every single Nordling peasant's face, drawling "SNNNNIIIIIIFFFF!" in his best Vincent Price voice.

I'd pay to see that. XD

 

[Dragonlayer]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/dandel_loves_chunky/gifs/tumblr_lydjphEHvQ1qf13eq.gifI just think think its a bit disingenuous to frame an innocently asked, plot-important question in tones that suggest he's whipping out a pair of used panties and shoving them in every single Nordling peasant's face, drawling "SNNNNIIIIIIFFFF!" in his best Vincent Price voice.

Much as it would be disengenous of me to draw the conclusion that Call of Duty is creepy hyper-misandrist propaganda, because the overwhelming majority of violent deaths occur to men.

Well, yeah, but that's not what I was doing, because I didn't say that.
I'mma leave it here, though, because this is getting weird. People get weirdly defensive of this kinda stuff. I'm not bothered if you think CoD is a man-killing sim for feminazis. Try not to be bothered that I think Geralt asking people if they've recently sniffed his girl is weird.

Live and let get creeped out, basically.

!!!!!!!I'M NOT GETTING DEFENSIVE I JUST!!!!! -

*Hyper-ventilation*

You certainly didn't say that - which is why I didn't attribute any quotations to you - but there are connotations to "creepily obsessed", *especially* when it pertains to that most controversial of chestnuts, sexism. As I was in the process of playing the game from scratch the other day, and deleting my old save like a fool, the opening is still fresh in my memory and I merely felt a compulsion to voice my opinion on the matter, much as I would also correct anyone with the insane idea that COD is *indeed* a SCUM Feminist's wet dream because almost only men die in it. Context! Always context!

 

[Dragonlayer]

I just think think its a bit disingenuous to frame an innocently asked, plot-important question in tones that suggest he's whipping out a pair of used panties and shoving them in every single Nordling peasant's face, drawling "SNNNNIIIIIIFFFF!" in his best Vincent Price voice.

I'd pay to see that. XD

I have it on good authority* that the upcoming Blood and Wine expansion will be nothing *but* that.

*This small sock-puppet I have sewn to vaguely resemble Geralt's face.

 

[Phasmal]

!!!!!!!I'M NOT GETTING DEFENSIVE I JUST!!!!! -

*Hyper-ventilation*

You certainly didn't say that - which is why I didn't attribute any quotations to you - but there are connotations to "creepily obsessed", *especially* when it pertains to that most controversial of chestnuts, sexism. As I was in the process of playing the game from scratch the other day, and deleting my old save like a fool, the opening is still fresh in my memory and I merely felt a compulsion to voice my opinion on the matter, much as I would correct anyone with the insane idea that COD is *indeed* a SCUM Feminist's wet dream because almost only men die in it. Context! Always context!

Yeah, but I already said that was hyperbole*. I think it's weird he brings it up ~at all~, which he certainly does.
It's an extremely minor point, but I'm allowed to think it's weird. My opinion on it is hurting no one. It's all cool.

*EDIT: I mean I also said I'd get a restraining order on my boyfriend if he did that, but rest assured I'm not actually going to initiate legal action on my boyfriend if he said a weird thing.

 

[Dragonlayer]

!!!!!!!I'M NOT GETTING DEFENSIVE I JUST!!!!! -

*Hyper-ventilation*

You certainly didn't say that - which is why I didn't attribute any quotations to you - but there are connotations to "creepily obsessed", *especially* when it pertains to that most controversial of chestnuts, sexism. As I was in the process of playing the game from scratch the other day, and deleting my old save like a fool, the opening is still fresh in my memory and I merely felt a compulsion to voice my opinion on the matter, much as I would correct anyone with the insane idea that COD is *indeed* a SCUM Feminist's wet dream because almost only men die in it. Context! Always context!

Yeah, but I already said that was hyperbole. I think it's weird he brings it up ~at all~, which he certainly does.
It's an extremely minor point, but I'm allowed to think it's weird. My opinion on it is hurting no one. It's all cool.

To be fair, in a miserable, filthy peasant village, people are probably going to remember a woman who both dresses distinctively and doesn't smell of dung and despair. Hence why the question factors in the 'ole schnozz - you are allowed to think it's weird, and I am allowed to think it's not weird. Thus our free exchange of ideas, thus the forum cycle goes on and thus we are both allowed to go home and secretly complain about the other be content with our respective lots in life.

 

[Dragonlayer]

Is Witcher 3 TAXIDERMIST? That's the question I'd like to know an answer for!

Well, there is that unicorn in the bedroom....

 

[Phasmal]

I heard about the Baron questline, and that gives me even less reason to ever get round to playing the game more. I'm really not interested in a game that tries to make me sympathise with a domestic abuser. Noooo thanks.

How dare the game treat an issue to both ways like the male is a human being and was abused until he hit her, don't you know males are always in the wrong and women can't be at fault for anything?

Nice try, but that's not remotely what I said. I could return the favour and straw-man in the opposite direction, but I'm not really interested in doing that.

Bye.

 

[wulf3n]

I think the OP's assessment of the Bloody Baron quest does the developers a disservice.

As Casual Shinji pointed out, the Bloody Baron trying to justify his actions is not the developers trying to absolve him, but rather them crafting a realistic character, not a saturday morning cartoon villain.

I can't remember who said it but I remember a quote that's basically saying that very few people who do bad things see themselves as bad, even if they acknowledge their actions were bad.

I actually find this refreshing in games. All too often devs feel like they need to make a point with these sorts of issues, and in doing so end up creating rather 1 dimensional scenarios and characters.

 

[wulf3n]

I heard about the Baron questline, and that gives me even less reason to ever get round to playing the game more. I'm really not interested in a game that tries to make me sympathise with a domestic abuser. Noooo thanks.

It doesn't though. It's actually one of the few games that treats it's audience as adults. It's not telling you what to think, it's crafting a realistic scenario and letting you decide for yourself.

This is a depressingly common attitude though, and it makes me wonder if games can be more than toys if so many of it's core supporters aren't willing to give more than a superficial analaysis.

 

[Silence]

I could dissolve the arguments, but as I don't have much time, here the short version:

You can't yet argue the game is sexist because you haven't even met the main female characters yet.

No, actually Geralt and Yennefer are both introduced naked. With intense focus on Geralts body. No difference there (unless you argue that ugly Geralt does not make up for beautiful female, but ... seriously?).

Did you look at any non-witch female characters?

Did you finish Bloody Baron Line? Did you focus on more than one line of choice?

And then: Is the society in Witcher 3 sexist? Fuck yes, it is. That is the whole point, really shitty medieval fantasy world. Of course it is sexist. This does not make the game sexist. Unless of course you argue points like "If you can't blatantly point out sexism (by the word) it's sexist, like a movie would be sexist if it had sexist scenes, even if it was playing in 1950)".

 

[MeatMachine]

People just have to see sexism in everything. If they can't find it easy, they'll dig and dig and dig until they can find something and call it sexist. It's bullshit.

Just to remind you, you're talking about a medieval setting where men had all the power anyway. What the fuck do you expect from a medieval period? Progressivism and equal rights?

This was exactly the point I was going to make. The Witcher series is a medieval fantasy world, with a heavy, heavy, HEAVY emphasis on the "medieval" part. Nothing about the Witcher universe is supposed to seem contemporary, and by design, it draws inspiration solely from wordviews, cultures, and problems relevant to an obsolete time period. The sexual subordination of women is only one drop in the bucket for the rest of the world's medieval injustices and culture (such as children being taken to watch public lynchings and the live pyre burnings of non-humans and witches in order to instill a sense of justice and loyalty to a particular authority).

I know there are some arguments to be made about fiction being fiction, and if your immersive dissonance can accept the existence of demons and magic, then why not accept equally-competent shieldmaidens, etc. There are, of course, exceptions to OPs cherry-picked examples of gendered stratification in The Witcher 3, such as the very empowered, non-sexualized Cerys an Craite potentially becoming the queen of Skellige (basically the Vikings). She is never nude, never squirms to be saved under duress, and is obviously the best choice for the isle's leader.

In other words, if your contemporary sensibilities can't handle the brutal realization of an uncivil fictional world that mirrors the one we lived in 7 centuries ago...

Well, just be glad that's not the world many of us live in anymore, and stop getting triggered over it. I don't mean to sound condescending, but if a roller coaster is too scary or uncomfortable to ride, there's always the merry-go-round.

 

[Phasmal]

It doesn't though. It's actually one of the few games that treats it's audience as adults. It's not telling you what to think, it's crafting a realistic scenario and letting you decide for yourself.

This is a depressingly common attitude though, and it makes me wonder if games can be more than toys if so many of it's core supporters aren't willing to give more than a superficial analaysis.

I'm willing to give things more than a superficial analysis if they're not domestic abuse. Games are and can be more than toys. But I reserve my right to go 'Oh domestic abuse? Nawp'. And then not engage.
There's no reason to despair just because I personally do not like it. I don't watch films or TV with domestic abuse either, if I can help it.

I must say, for all the moaning about SJW's and 'triggering' and all that, gamers take it awfully personally when someone doesn't like a thing that they like.

 

[Bellvedere]

I loved the Baron story. He's a vile character but I personally appreciated the complexity to that narrative. Not to say that I think it did everything right. That dialogue choice mentioned in the OP and part of the way it concluded were big ones. I guess, for me, it requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, things unsaid, things that would be disadvantageous to say... that kind of thing.

As for the hotties thing - I think it evens out a bit once you get to Novigrad and beyond. I don't think that's too unrealistic given the area you start is a war-ravaged, peasant villages in a swamp - not exactly a location you'd expect to find to many beauties of any gender. The two love interests (his kid isn't one of them) are pretty tastefully done all in all. I like to think that the reason there's a bit of romantic interest between Geralt and every sorceress has something to do with the appeal of someone of a similar age and lifespan outside of the same profession

There's plenty of other things in the game that, I guess I would say, are bit disappointing in regards to gender representation. Not to be totally negative though because I love this series and there were so many things it did really well. It's also a massive improvement over both previous games in this regard (well in pretty much every regard).

 

[MeatMachine]

It doesn't though. It's actually one of the few games that treats it's audience as adults. It's not telling you what to think, it's crafting a realistic scenario and letting you decide for yourself.

This is a depressingly common attitude though, and it makes me wonder if games can be more than toys if so many of it's core supporters aren't willing to give more than a superficial analaysis.

I'm willing to give things more than a superficial analysis if they're not domestic abuse. Games are and can be more than toys. But I reserve my right to go 'Oh domestic abuse? Nawp'. And then not engage.
There's no reason to despair just because I personally do not like it. I don't watch films or TV with domestic abuse either, if I can help it.

I must say, for all the moaning about SJW's and 'triggering' and all that, gamers take it awfully personally when someone doesn't like a thing that they like.

Saying "I don't like this theme and would better enjoy this game without it" is slightly different than saying "this is a bad theme and the game would be better without it". They are totally different statements that are easily conflated with each other when little effort is put into exploring the intention of what is being said. I imagine that you and most people who agree with you are in the former category, rather than the latter - I can be a jaded asshole sometimes, but I get that people are generally rational and respectful.

Unfortunately, with how many attacks that have been made on our medium, gamers can get pretty reactionary to statements that sound like a call to action when they may only be simple statements of personal discomfort. Nobody is fond of domestic abuse; the only reason many people would respond negatively to this discomfort being elicited by and pointed out in a video game (I'd imagine) is if they were preparing in anticipation to get accused of being complacent or desensitized to the ugliness of domestic abuse in real life. I can only speak for myself, but given how much immediate disapproval has been thrown my way for liking controversial games like this, getting defensive can be a hard cycle of conditioning to break.

 

[Mikeybb]

I think the OP's assessment of the Bloody Baron quest does the developers a disservice.

As Casual Shinji pointed out, the Bloody Baron trying to justify his actions is not the developers trying to absolve him, but rather them crafting a realistic character, not a saturday morning cartoon villain.

I can't remember who said it but I remember a quote that's basically saying that very few people who do bad things see themselves as bad, even if they acknowledge their actions were bad.

I actually find this refreshing in games. All too often devs feel like they need to make a point with these sorts of issues, and in doing so end up creating rather 1 dimensional scenarios and characters.

Agreed.

Very few villains ever acknowledge their own villainy for what it is.
"I'm evil, deal with it" is the kind of thing you'd get from Skeletor.

Aside from this, I think one of the endings of the bloody baron questline results in the baron truly facing what he's done without the shield of his own justifications and a barrel of wine to pad it out.
That realization, well, if I could remember how to do spoilers I'd go further but I think you'll know the ending I'm talking about.