So how are Geohot and the Sony hackers heros?

[artanis_neravar]

They would have to prove that it was a security risk, which they could not do for the blue-ray player, unless of course it actually was.

I highly doubt that. I'm at work, and so unable to go through the PS3 TOS and EULA to prove it at the moment, but I very much doubt that.

The thing is, just because it is in a contract doesn't make it legal, if you signed a contract that says you give permission for the other party to have sex with all of your children under the age of 10[footnote]I don't not condone pedophilia I am just using it to make a point[/footnote]it doesn't mean that it is legal for them to do so.

However I do acknowledge that we will not come to an agreement on this, so I will most likely not be arguing back anymore after this.

 

[Arehexes]

If sony can prove the blu-ray player function has a risk to it to allow someone to play illegal game they can side with them because copying games as much as I hate to admit it is a crime end of story. Why not blame Nintendo for haven't the new 3DS auto update, or having it supposedly record if you use a flash cart making it so you can't resale(or say the rumors go). Hell nintendo updates the wii to block the homebrew channel from being used but no one and I repeat NO ONE CARES, I have heard no one say "YEAH lets show nintendo who is boss". The only reason people are mad at sony is because they sued a hacker for unlocked THE SOFTWARE NOT THE HARDWARE. Why not sue Ubisoft for forcing single player games require a internet connection? Why not sue companies for making these game passes to limit game functions on the disc if you buy used? You guys whine and moan about sony but other companies just do the same and or worse but hey who cares sony removed a feature not every avid gamer would use. Hell I don't even know linux/computer nerds who had a ps3 used otherOS or if they installed it barely used it.

Here's how you prove it:

Pirates need a Blu-Ray player to play their pirated games, because they are on Blu-Ray.

Throw some $30,000/hour lawyers at that, and you have sufficient proof for a court of law.

The simple fact of the matter is that they can remove just about anything they want from a consumer's console, legally. It's a completely dick move and a gross violation of consumer rights.

And you are correct, Nintendo, Ubisoft and all those other dicks have done the same thing. I rallied against it then as well. This thread is about Sony though, hence why I haven't mentioned them.

Yeah like any one is truly stupid enough to make a system 90% useless. And sony wouldn't have to remove bluray access or disable the player they can just use a new software solution to check the disc (till that's cracked). Hell the psp's can use the UMD drive to DIRECTLY COPY A UMD IMAGE TO A COMPUTER (Just set the USB Pointer to the UMD Drive and bam you can read the system, and I don't mean some odd binary I mean a ISO File), you know how sony beat that, through software updates to prevent the new games from being used (it was a cat and mouse game that caused some big name hackers to just stop). What Geohot did was released info that can not be fixed at all. So by that logic lets ban UMD Drives on PSPs (Yeah did you see the PSPGo and how well that did).

But by your logic I can take anything like a DVD Buner and say it can be used for illegal means so it should be banned. So why not ban it all huh?

Also I bring up other companies because no one ever says anything about them, it's lets hate on sony for removing a feature barely anyone used and some hacker gave the keys out and it won't effect me, while EA makes online passes to lock features out of something on the disc

 

[Agayek]

Oh so your problem is a hypothetical slippery slope argument which would hurt sonys bottom line (yeah they made blu-rays remember). Slippery slope arguments generally hold no water with me. like to deal with the case as it stands. And as it stand the consumer lost a feature that the massive majority did not ever use. Its in said majority's interest because it protects the security of their online service.

What said majority use to play fair and non cheated on games. Which again is more important than a feature which wasn't used.

Seriously the WORST case scenario of it being removed was that some weirdo's who used their playstations for gaming and computing would have to make the choice between computing and gaming online. And since said subgroup is so damn small its mostly irrelevant. Rules and rulings exist to protect the majority.

Yea, personally, I'm completely fine with the loss of the Other OS. I never used it and I don't know anyone who did.

What I'm concerned about is the fact that Sony got away with abusing the TOS/EULA as they did, and what it means for consumer rights in the digital age. More and more of the things we buy are digital and our laws simply are not equipped to handle it. I'm... furious, for lack of a better word, over the bullshit companies are allowed to get away with because of that.

 

[samsonguy920]

This doesn't scream hero?

take the piss all you like but the mind behind that face is probably smarter than pretty much everyone on this forum (in relation to his field)

Smarter doesn't mean better. There have been many people who wasted a rare intelligence on something not worth a rabbit's droppings. Hitler was a superior tactician who had Europe under his control in under 5 years. But he committed wide genocide in the process on people who didn't threaten him at all.
Steve Jobs is a smart programmer who created Apple, and who could have rode on Bill Gates's coattails all the way to the top. Instead he made it a mission to piss off his shareholders and boardmembers until he got himself fired from the company he created. He is back in control now, but where has Apple really gone since then? Downhill with the competition building up.
Smarts mean nothing if you do nothing smart with them. GeoHot has a good statement to make, that Sony should keep the PS3 user-friendly. But he pushes it to the point of encouraging people to being downright criminal in their actions. Companies are in the business of making money. That's what I would be doing if I started my own business. Trying to tear down those companies because of that one fact does nothing but turn around and bites you in the ass.
In the end, Sony has the right to do with the Playstation 3 software whatever they want. If people don't want new firmware updates that might prevent them from running Linux on their console(God knows why, but oh well), then they don't have to have their console plugged into the net.
It's the same with PC's, where Windows XP is being kept at a cap of DirectX 9.0c while the newer OS's are open to the newer versions of DX. I haven't heard much of an outcry about that. (But that is apples and oranges.)
Sony offers completely free service on PSN to all of their customers so they can play online with anyone.
Microsoft charges their customers to be able to play online with select people. They also charge for DLC to games where it would be free otherwise on PS3 and PC. Why isn't Microsoft being targeted in all of this? Why is Sony the bad guy?
There is nothing smart at all about what is being done here. It is childish, criminal, invasive, and cost-consuming for everyone involved. There is no honor to be found here, nor respect. It is time this ends once and for all.

 

[Sean951]

A FEATURE NOBODY USED.
Seriously the people who used the otherOS
seriously
are still using it. Everyone else only liked it as an option and just enjoys getting up in arms about stuff. Its a complete non-issue. And If you were sony and had a way to shut off pirate access you'd take it too. Because its a hell of a lot less effort than patching for every single game released to check for cracks.

Be angry if you want, but it's not because they were wrong. its because you want to argue about something.

Really? Nobody used it? Can I see where you get your facts? I'm going to take a guess here and say you're talking out of your ass. Funny thing is that, the removal of the Other OS option is illegal according to the EU Parliament.

The goods must

· comply with the description given by the seller and posses the same qualities and characteristics as other similar goods

· be fit for the purpose which the consumer requires them and which was made known to the seller at the time of purchase.

http://www.wak-tt.com/tt/2yearwarranty1.htm

like removing PS2 emulation which they did and which GeoHot re-enabled.

That was solely cost related, which they announced that no future PS3s would have that. The PS2 emulation still works fine for all older consoles.

Im really not pulling facts out of my ass or sony would have had a massive class action against it. Rather than a few select cases. And yes the law may be on your side. It doesn't change the fact how minor a grievance this is to get worked up over. The people who used otherOS as something to run programs etc were using them as clusters, no real need for console use there.

Sure there were some weird mouthbreathers who got upset by it but its for the most part a non-issue. If you want to get all worked up go right ahead though. Watching people get angry over things that don't really matter is really a good way to remind me how bad some parts of the world are.

So suddenly liking Linux instantly means you should be attacked and insulted on principle? As to calling it a little issue... yes, it is small if you compare it to the problem in parts of the world. But guess what, we don't live there and their problems aren't our problems. We can and should help them a bit, but in a hypothetical situation, let's say someone bought a PS3 thinking it could also serve as their PC to check email and do basic accounting or whatever. Suddenly, they find themselves without a computer capable of handling all their needs, and the cheapest replacements cost several hundred dollars and offer no further functionality, unlike the PS3 which also played games, music, and movies. In their little world, this IS a big problem.

 

[Agayek]

Yeah like any one is truly stupid enough to make a system 90% useless. And sony wouldn't have to remove bluray access or disable the player they can just use a new software solution to check the disc (till that's cracked). Hell the psp's can use the UMD drive to DIRECTLY COPY A UMD IMAGE TO A COMPUTER (Just set the USB Pointer to the UMD Drive and bam you can read the system, and I don't mean some odd binary I mean a ISO File), you know how sony beat that, through software updates to prevent the new games from being used (it was a cat and mouse game that caused some big name hackers to just stop). What Geohot did was released info that can not be fixed at all. So by that logic lets ban UMD Drives on PSPs (Yeah did you see the PSPGo and how well that did).

But by your logic I can take anything like a DVD Buner and say it can be used for illegal means so it should be banned. So why not ban it all huh?

It was an example. The fact of the matter is, Sony now has the legal right to do whatever they want to every PS3 out there, even ones already purchased. It's a dick move, in other words, and a violation of consumer rights.

The only reason they got away with it is that the legal system (at least in the US, I dunno about others) is simply not prepared for the digital age. The lawmakers don't understand it, and so they try to use rules that simply don't work.

 

[Agayek]

Smarter doesn't mean better. There have been many people who wasted a rare intelligence on something not worth a rabbit's droppings. Hitler was a superior tactician who had Europe under his control in under 5 years. But he committed wide genocide in the process on people who didn't threaten him at all.

I dunno about the rest of it but I had to say this:

Hitler was actually a terrible tactician, surrounded by amazing generals. He (And Goebbels) was a genius at manipulating the public, but he was very, very bad at war. Matter of fact, his insistence on military strategy is the primary reason the Axis lost the war in the first place. His most famous military blunder is ordering an invasion of Russia at the beginning of winter, against the advice of all of his advisors.

 

[thethingthatlurks]

First things first: The title is incredibly poorly worded. Simply replacing the "and" with an "or" would be far better.

That said, I approve of Geohot and everything he did regarding the Other OS functionality, but whoever hacked PSN can go die in a fire. Geohot isn't a hero, and the PSN hackers are just cunts. And to those who insist that they are somehow related, source or gtfo.

 

[Arehexes]

Yeah like any one is truly stupid enough to make a system 90% useless. And sony wouldn't have to remove bluray access or disable the player they can just use a new software solution to check the disc (till that's cracked). Hell the psp's can use the UMD drive to DIRECTLY COPY A UMD IMAGE TO A COMPUTER (Just set the USB Pointer to the UMD Drive and bam you can read the system, and I don't mean some odd binary I mean a ISO File), you know how sony beat that, through software updates to prevent the new games from being used (it was a cat and mouse game that caused some big name hackers to just stop). What Geohot did was released info that can not be fixed at all. So by that logic lets ban UMD Drives on PSPs (Yeah did you see the PSPGo and how well that did).

But by your logic I can take anything like a DVD Buner and say it can be used for illegal means so it should be banned. So why not ban it all huh?

It was an example. The fact of the matter is, Sony now has the legal right to do whatever they want to every PS3 out there, even ones already purchased. It's a dick move, in other words, and a violation of consumer rights.

The only reason they got away with it is that the legal system (at least in the US, I dunno about others) is simply not prepared for the digital age. The lawmakers don't understand it, and so they try to use rules that simply don't work.

Sony consent firmware updates on the psp will leave some people high and dry for new games (unless you know how to fix it with plug ins with a decent CFW) and if you still use CFW you can't use the UMD drive to play ANY GAME or access the psn store outside of a ps3 or computer. Nintendo has updates that can render homebrew useless until a fix is out. Nintendo has multiple different firmwares for the DSlites/Bricks (There is a test using picochat and removing a DS card while it's in use to see which firmware is which). The DSi has firmware updates, and the xbox 360 has updates to prevent illegal hacks/mods from online. All this stuff to prevent "messing with the software or modding it" was WAY before otherOS was removed. Heck even though it is legal to jailbreak a iphone you still lose the warranty on it (and I don't know about iPhones but I can restore a Droid X using the same software verizon uses). And some droid phones are locked down (even though it's supposed to be open for use unless you get a dev phone like the Nexus phones). So this whole sony is removing/making it hard for modders isn't new at all. Hell Unreal torniment 3 on the PS3 allows mods while the xbox version doesn't. I just don't understand this sudden revelation about companies removing X feature or function.


Oh yeah and it's not just small time modders who try to break consoles, when the NES was the big system companies had a voltage spike system to burn out the 10NES chip from reading fake carts(Don't know if it's 100% relevant but it's just creepy companies can damaged a system like that back then -_-).

 

[Hussmann54]

The thing is, by supporting Anonymouse and Geohot, these people are trying to slide into their Che Guevara fantasy, and pretend that they are fighting against an overarcing conspiracy to deprive them of basic rights, meanwhile ignoring the fact that Guevara was very little more than a mass murding terrorist.

Let us not forget, either, that these people are, for the most part, hypocrites. "Fuck Sony!" But, they own every God of War game, and will be happy to download the free shit from the PSN Store, when it gets back up fully. "Fuck EA!" While having pre-orders down on Madden and the next Dragon Age. These are the same people who ***** and moan about capitalism online.... on their iPads..... at Starbucks.

Rex, this never had anything to do with Sony "defending its hardware." The hardware was never the issue. Sony was defending its software.

THANK GOD IM NOT THE ONLY HUMAN WHO ACTUALLY GOT CHE!

 

[Agayek]

Sony consent firmware updates on the psp will leave some people high and dry for new games (unless you know how to fix it with plug ins with a decent CFW) and if you still use CFW you can't use the UMD drive to play ANY GAME or access the psn store outside of a ps3 or computer. Nintendo has updates that can render homebrew useless until a fix is out. Nintendo has multiple different firmwares for the DSlites/Bricks (There is a test using picochat and removing a DS card while it's in use to see which firmware is which). The DSi has firmware updates, and the xbox 360 has updates to prevent illegal hacks/mods from online. All this stuff to prevent "messing with the software or modding it" was WAY before otherOS was removed. Heck even though it is legal to jailbreak a iphone you still lose the warranty on it (and I don't know about iPhones but I can restore a Droid X using the same software verizon uses). And some droid phones are locked down (even though it's supposed to be open for use unless you get a dev phone like the Nexus phones). So this whole sony is removing/making it hard for modders isn't new at all. Hell Unreal torniment 3 on the PS3 allows mods while the xbox version doesn't. I just don't understand this sudden revelation about companies removing X feature or function.


Oh yeah and it's not just small time modders who try to break consoles, when the NES was the big system companies had a voltage spike system to burn out the 10NES chip from reading fake carts(Don't know if it's 100% relevant but it's just creepy companies can damaged a system like that back then -_-).

And most of it is bullshit. I've railed against it since it started.

The fact of the matter is, the removal of features customers paid for is a violation of basic consumer rights. It doesn't matter if it's Sony, Microsoft, or the Mom & Pop store down the street.

It's effectively the same thing as someone selling you a convertible, then coming by a year later and swapping it out for a hardtop of the same model. You would have a legal case of a violation of consumer rights. Because our laws regarding digital media are so outdated and broken, the consumer doesn't have that same protection in the software realm. It's utter bullshit.

 

[Spencer Petersen]

Geohot is very different from the Sony hackers, for one thing. The PS3 hack to unlock features Sony illegally removed from usage is very different from stealing personal information.Even if his program was used in the attack, to call him a villain would be like calling Tang Dynasty Alchemists mass murderers because they invented a very useful tool that some other assholes used for evil.

 

[Micalas]

Why are you grouping Geohot with the hackers?

 

[EradiusLore]

sony are a huge corporation, the bottom line is the top brass of any global corporation (95% of the time) wont give a shit about the consumer, seriously they couldnt care less if you all died as long as your ghosts continued to pay for new sony stuff. so an attack on any corporation is a good thing.

I love posts like this because I want to ask this "Do you use anything made by a "huge corporation" was your computer used by a independent company? Do you use a open source OS? Do you use a Cell Phone and if so did you are some small company make the phone/software it runs? Do you use a console made by microsoft, sony, or nintendo or do you use a open source system?" If you use any thing from a "huge corporation" then dude you need to shut up because your a hypocrite end of story man.

did i at any point say anything about using products from a large corp? all i said was the people at own them tend to be arseholes who only care about money. what so i have to love a companies executives to use their stuff? so you have to love obama to use an american service? no you dont, i can ***** as much as i like about those people because i can. i know they dont give a shit about me or you, but that dosent bother me. i will still buy/use the products/services even if i know its an extortionate amount of money compared to what it actually costs. so yeah STFU!

 

[Agayek]

First things first: The title is incredibly poorly worded. Simply replacing the "and" with an "or" would be far better.

That said, I approve of Geohot and everything he did regarding the Other OS functionality, but whoever hacked PSN can go die in a fire. Geohot isn't a hero, and the PSN hackers are just cunts. And to those who insist that they are somehow related, source or gtfo.

To be completely fair, from what I understand of the security holes used to hack Sony, the hackers almost certainly used the rootkeys GeoHotz cracked (or got their own separately, no way to know).

Basically, the gist of it that I've figured out is that the developer side of the network had essentially no security, the hackers got access to it by rooting their PS3s and then laughed at Sony as they stole their data. This wouldn't be possible without the rootkeys.

I'm definitely not saying GeoHotz is, or should be held, responsible, just that his work was almost certainly used in the hack.

 

[MrDumpkins]

Sony was arrogant, they called their system unhackable. When someone hacked it, they sued them. Other hackers took that as a challenge.

Sony unleashed this on themselves. I say that it sucks that people got their services taken away and their private information stolen. I don't think that was the right thing to do. But you know they could have done a lot of stuff with that information. Sony didn't tell the public about the leaks for 1 week, in one week, if the hackers really really wanted too, they could have done a lot worse.

 

[Plucky]

They're not really heroes tbh, if Sony didn't remove features and such, Geohot wouldnt have leaked the key and caused script kiddies to cheat in online games, plus im not even sure wherever to believe if anonymous or some other group are one and the same or what, or if its just some other group piggybacking on Annoy's fame.

 

[thethingthatlurks]

First things first: The title is incredibly poorly worded. Simply replacing the "and" with an "or" would be far better.

That said, I approve of Geohot and everything he did regarding the Other OS functionality, but whoever hacked PSN can go die in a fire. Geohot isn't a hero, and the PSN hackers are just cunts. And to those who insist that they are somehow related, source or gtfo.

To be completely fair, from what I understand of the security holes used to hack Sony, the hackers almost certainly used the rootkeys GeoHotz cracked (or got their own separately, no way to know).

Basically, the gist of it that I've figured out is that the developer side of the network had essentially no security, the hackers got access to it by rooting their PS3s and then laughed at Sony as they stole their data. This wouldn't be possible without the rootkeys.

I'm definitely not saying GeoHotz is, or should be held, responsible, just that his work was almost certainly used in the hack.

Ah, good to know. 'course, that in no way implicates GeoHot or anybody else, but it's still interesting to know that Sony wasn't really prepared for such an attack.