So how are Geohot and the Sony hackers heros?

[Jumplion]

I know it's not that simple but I don't want to type out an entire essay on the subject. So let me put it simple I have only brought one AAA new game, thank god of GOG and indie, this year because I find that I can't support most developer and publisher. And the way I see it before it can get better there has to happen something really damaging for the industry.

That's your right, nothing I can really do to stop you, nor to I want to. Support the indie developers by all means. Whatever floats your boat.

And you can't just bring people into it, there are people employed everywhere if something is wrong you can't just keep it because people will loose work. By that logic nothing should ever be made better as there are always some that will loose job in the transition.

Yes I can "just bring people into it" because that's what it is. If this was one developer, or an extremely small publisher, then I would be more inclined to agree with you. But this is Sony here, one of the big three, supporting dozens of developers with thousands more, and a major proponent of competition in this industry. If only, say, Naughty Dog or Santa Monica would be affected by their crash, it'd be more bearable, but they have dozens of studios under there wing. A complete destruction of a huge development/publishing wing would only serve to make everything else follow suit. Now, that could very well be what you want, I have no idea. I, however, would prefer more subtle, but still impacting changes within companies, instead of completely trashing them just because they've done some things that I don't agree with. I dislike Activision with a passion, but it would be a damn shame to see them crash.

Getting them knocked down a peg is what we should want, not the entire immolation of a subdivision of a major corporation.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

I guess I don't understand why these guys are considered the good guys and Sony is evil? Because Sony is big and suing people, so they must be evil and it is geo right to be able to hack shit and post how to hack it online, therefore he is a hero. And now Anonymous and some sort of lolcat hackers are taking up arms against Sony for suing a fellow hacker? How is the honorable? That seems like terrorism. It just seems to me that everyone in this situation has dirty hands.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.

*I know geohot isn't the same later hackers, quit correcting me.

Geohot restored a functionality to the PS3 that was a selling point for many consumers. Hackers like him are really just a form of consumer protection. Once you buy a product, it is unfair for a company to take away the functions that existed when you bought it. Especially with the PS3. They didn't advertise it like it was a gaming machine with some neat perks. Entire ad campaigns revolved around the fact that the PS3 was to be more the Swiss army knife of electronics than it was a simple gaming machine. With that understanding, customers bought the machine. Then the functions they paid for were stolen (if we are to call piracy, which simply creates a duplicate of a product without depriving anyone of anything, then certainly this electronic act which actually deprives people of something they paid for is theft as well), and Geohot obligingly gave it back to them.

Now, the hackers who subsequently attacked Sony and stole the credit card information of consumers are not heroes. They are just profiteers.

So, in short: Geohot went in the hole to give people back something they paid for, these other hackers made a profit off of depriving people their privacy.

Just like with everything, there are both heroes and villains in the hacking community. When you lump the community together as one entity that's where you run into problems.

 

[DarkRyter]

All Geohot did was give people the ability to do what they want with the product they purchased. Just a guy wanting to do some homebrewing and PS2 Emulation.

The Sony Hackers are just bad guys. Like, really. Bad people. Alot of people like to blame Sony itself for that whole debacle and yeah, they weren't entirely perfect in their way of dealing with it. But the people who directly hacked the system, stole account info, and caused genuine problems to millions of entirely innocent users, are unforgivable.

 

[Alden Hou]

snip.

You aren't missing anything at all. The hackers are not heroes but rather assholes who need to leave their mothers basements and get a life. Honestly Sony defends its hardware and suddenly their the bad guys? Go screw yourselves hackers, if I want to play a game, you don't have the right to take that away from me.

well if Sony hired more security experts and less lawyers, this may have been completely avoided.

 

[Eponet]

Why not blame Nintendo for haven't the new 3DS auto update, or having it supposedly record if you use a flash cart making it so you can't resale(or say the rumors go). Hell nintendo updates the wii to block the homebrew channel from being used but no one and I repeat NO ONE CARES, I have heard no one say "YEAH lets show nintendo who is boss". The only reason people are mad at sony is because they sued a hacker for unlocked THE SOFTWARE NOT THE HARDWARE. Why not sue Ubisoft for forcing single player games require a internet connection? Why not sue companies for making these game passes to limit game functions on the disc if you buy used?

The 3Ds has always been like that, and anyone properly resesarching wil discover this before buying.

The wii update only makes it impossible to install the channel, people who have already installed it are fine, and this was explained to people before it came into effect.

Ubisoft games that require a constant internet connection specifically have a sticker informing customers of this fact before they buy; and even if they didn't people that do their research will learn about it.

Game passes aren't a violation of rights, because they're introduced prior to sale, and anyone doing their research would be informed before buying.

The difference between the Sony and the above examples is that Sony's is entirely retrospective. If you bought a contant internet connection game, or a 3DS and are unhappy with its features, then it's purely because you didn't do the research.

With SOny, a person purchasing a PS3 prior to the update could have no idea that their ability to perform tasks with their console would be removed four years later.

 

[SovietSecrets]

There are no good guys in this story. However, I'd tend to be more pissed off at the people defending Sony.

Yeah, god forbid we enjoy our hobby of playing video games and own a PS3, right? God forbid we might just want Sony to be able to get PSN and the store up and running so we can fully enjoy said hobby, right?

No no, we should piss you off for defending the people that hold the ability to let us play online games in their hands.

Do people defending the model airplane store that got burned down by an arson piss you off too? If not, then you're a hypocrite.

God forbid a company not taking steps to protect your information and somehow letting to go on a massive scale.

Sony fucked up, that simple. If it took a major incident like this to get their shit straight, then so be it. I am happy that was done because it shows companies actually have to take care of their user info and not piss upon it thinking it will be okay. Now everything past this is overkill and should be stopped. They learned the lesson and I doubt they will be so lax with their security next time. If you say that it was the hackers fault for getting the information and Sony was innocent, then you are a hopeless case.

 

[Dogstile]

I guess I don't understand why these guys are considered the good guys and Sony is evil? Because Sony is big and suing people, so they must be evil and it is geo right to be able to hack shit and post how to hack it online, therefore he is a hero. And now Anonymous and some sort of lolcat hackers are taking up arms against Sony for suing a fellow hacker? How is the honorable? That seems like terrorism. It just seems to me that everyone in this situation has dirty hands.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.

*I know geohot isn't the same later hackers, quit correcting me.

Geohot had honourable intentions, made a mistake and then sony decided to make him there example. Sony get bad guy points, as he was only trying to let people get otherOS back. Sure he screwed up and released the root key, but honourable intentions and he in no way deserved to get sued for trying to bring back something that was sold to him and other people like him.

The Anon hackers originally tried to teach sony a lesson by attacking their servers, they then realised it was hurting gamers and stopped. This is where the honour ended.

Now, the actual asshole hackers got into the picture and nobody considers these guys heroes. I however, do find it hilarious. My sense of humour is terrible, I know.

Clear?

 

[AngryFrenchCanadian]

So how are Geohot and the Sony hackers heros?

Why do these kinds of thread ALWAYS have a rhetorical title?

 

[Agayek]

Ah but Geohot doesn't own the software for the ps3 he owned the hardware. If companies couldn't change anything then sony, microsoft, or nintendo couldn't force us to update if we want to play the newest games or use online. And sony didn't alter your property (that would be the console itself) they altered their software on your system. You don't own the software and you never did, if that was the case sony would give out the source code and release it under a GCC like license (I can't remember the right one atm).

And my question is this "idea" isn't a new thing from any game company this generation. Nintendo won't let you play any new game or access the wii shop store unless you updated (hey you paid to play for the game system to play games). Microsoft blocks you from using online play if you don't update your game (even though you payed for XBL), and sony blocks you from playing new games/use psn market unless you update.

And for the car the idea would better be if they updated a chip in your car to lower how fast it can go, or if it reported you if you were speeding to the police. And if you didn't you would loss the right to drive your car by it not starting because you didn't put the newest chip in it. You may own the car itself but software it runs you don't own and can't mod. Again that is why you don't see console modders sued by companies (even the fake knock off consoles).

Basically what I'm complaining about is the bullshit software licensing we currently have. That's most of my concerns. The way it's used is a fairly severe breach of consumer rights, but our laws are not current enough to protect the consumer properly, so we're stuck relying on TOS's to define our software we purchased can be used.

Edit: I'm pissed off at the bullshit licensing shit software companies get away with. It really should not function that way. Sony is simply the most recent, and one of the more egregious, examples.

 

[Ryan Minns]

Just curious but with the whole stolen information thing, has there so far been any proof the information has been used for unsavory purposes?

 

[Agayek]

Just curious but with the whole stolen information thing, has there so far been any proof the information has been used for unsavory purposes?

Not as far as I've seen. There definitely has not been a huge increase in identity theft cases. They may just be sitting on it til people begin to forget about it, but it hasn't been used yet either way.

 

[Prosis]

Don't listen to the bull about this hacker group being good guys.

They stole customer credit card numbers. They stole customer name and addresses and posted them online. They're after money. It doesn't matter what they say.

 

[pokepuke]

Well they modded software they didn't own, you can mod the hardware but software is different. Why do you think you can by a premade desktop from bestbuy and upgrade it later? Heck if you go to a mom and pop store you can find crappy multi cart systems and they aren't sued by companies for it. And there are famous console modders(and I mean hardware) who are posted all over games sites not sued. But none of that was software, the key difference is software that the company owns. Heck from some places I've read you don't even own a Mac (hardware or software), so sony isn't the first or only to pull this crap

It sounds like you don't have any clue on what you are talking about; whether it be the line between software and hardware, why that differentiation would even matter, what modders do and the history involved, the difference between generic and proprietary products, plus anything else you touched on here. And those example don't make any sense at all.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

It's essentially the same thing as you buying a convertible car, then a year later the salesman comes to your house and replaces it with a hardtop version of the same model. Sure, it'll still work, and it'll still be a car, but you paid for a convertible that you no longer have.

But your argument is Specious. The hardtop/ragtop argument is one of HARDWARE. This is a software argument. And to prevent piracy (A SOFTWARE issue) they took steps like dis-allowing alternate OSes. That would be like Buying a German sportscar capable of doing 180 miles per hour, and then the government forces you to install a computer chip to limit it to a top speed of 120 miles per hour... Oh WAIT, they DO that here in America... It is within the rights of a company to do everything in their power to prevent Piracy, which is a crime.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it illegal.

But this isn't the government, this is a company, the government has the right to make laws that people are beholden to, because that is it's nature.

A company does not have the right to withdraw promised functionality because it would be possible to use it for illegal purposes. That would be like microsoft saying that windows will prevent any attempts to connect to the internet due to the fact that it can be used for illegal actions. They could cite any number of them, but the fact of the matter is that it's the same in principal and the only reason there wasn't a massive uproar was because there isn't an extremely large number of user. The users who lost that functionality weren't even compensated or offered a refund.

It's a dangerous precedent, and we as consumers shouldn't have allowed this to happen. But we did, and I'm sure it will bite us in the future.

 

[Frostbite3789]

There are no good guys in this story. However, I'd tend to be more pissed off at the people defending Sony.

Yeah, god forbid we enjoy our hobby of playing video games and own a PS3, right? God forbid we might just want Sony to be able to get PSN and the store up and running so we can fully enjoy said hobby, right?

No no, we should piss you off for defending the people that hold the ability to let us play online games in their hands.

Do people defending the model airplane store that got burned down by an arson piss you off too? If not, then you're a hypocrite.

God forbid a company not taking steps to protect your information and somehow letting to go on a massive scale.

Sony fucked up, that simple. If it took a major incident like this to get their shit straight, then so be it. I am happy that was done because it shows companies actually have to take care of their user info and not piss upon it thinking it will be okay. Now everything past this is overkill and should be stopped. They learned the lesson and I doubt they will be so lax with their security next time. If you say that it was the hackers fault for getting the information and Sony was innocent, then you are a hopeless case.

My post said Sony was completely innocent? Damndest thing that, that isn't what I typed.

But hey, if you think people that defend the hackers are somehow more intelligent, have fun with that.

 

[Jonabob87]

This doesn't scream hero?

take the piss all you like but the mind behind that face is probably smarter than pretty much everyone on this forum (in relation to his field)

I'm not arguing with you, I'm sure he's plently smart; but this a forum where we're discussing if he's a "hero" or not.

well personally i think if you buy a product you should be able to use every feature is capable of and most certainly ones that were previously "sale points".

as far as im concerned "sale" is "sale" pure and simple (in terms of physical goods). not some complicated obfuscated legal definition where someone else can dictate what you can do with what you have paid to own.

Modding your console isn't the thing that Sony has a problem with, connecting to PSN with that console is what they have a problem with.

Essentially, you can do whatever the hell you want with your PS3 so long as you understand that it means you forfeit your right to PSN.

from the information i have in access to that does not appear to have been the bais of any of the legal action conducted against Geohot or of the legal demands made by sony to hand over the IP addresses of those who visited Geohot's social pages, youtube pages and personal website.

on the 7th of January he showed off a demo video running homebrew applications on PlayStation 3 and sony filed their first legal action (a temporary restraining order) on the 11th. no mention is made of PSN in any of the reports i have read in direct relation to this case.

They took him to court because he distributed the code used to crack the PS3's security. They then discovered he'd broken the TOS by logging on the PSN with a modded PS3 and brought it up in court to discredit him (because he claimed he hadn't done so).

If Sony got those IP addresses they would search for them on the PSN system and check if the software was modified, then they would take action against that. Only people who had taken the code, used it, then logged on to SONY'S OWN online service would feel the repercussions.

 

[Gazisultima]

I despise Sony so therefore I support what the hackers did, but I'm a long way from calling them heroes by any stretch of the imagination. They knocked Sony off their high pedestal by completely wrecking everything they have with very few resources and most likely a tiny budget. It's absolutely brilliant. Sure the consumer has suffered because of it, but the delay of service was Sony's fault for having such an awful system in the first place. Also, don't generalise these people as basement dwelling virgins. I can think of plenty of generalisations for gamers that fall under a similar category. Just saying.