So, I agree with pretty much everything in Anita Sarkeesian's Damsels in Distress video.

[Voulan]

I love how so many people are getting mad that you made a thread on something pertaining to video games, about someone who talks about video games, on a video game forum.


I've seen threads made for less important reasons. Kudos to both you and her.

I absolutely agree. Since when is it not okay to talk about video game discussion in a video game forum? The amount of posts that say nothing more than "yeah, so what?" is actually annoying me. They are in turn not contributing anything to the discussion at all. Since so many people seem up in arms over this series, it makes sense to list why some people actually like and agree with the video.

Anyway, I agree with the OP. I agreed with almost everything she said, especially some really important points she made about how liking these games does not make you sexist, sexist tropes are not exclusive to games, sexist tropes are not always born out of spite for women, and many games get it right. The fact that many people didn't pay attention (which you can tell by some posts in this thread) suggests that they have their fingers in their ears about the whole issue. I saw one person in another thread disregard her because she was wearing a pink shirt, because apparently you're not allowed to argue feminism while being dressed as a typical female (which I'll hasten to point out that pink was in history associated with young boys at a time, and pink as a girl's colour is a societal pressure, not an innate fact). It's not sexist to dislike the video or even Anita herself, but it is sexist to not see the issue with female representation in games.

I mean, are people seriously okay with women in games jumping about in underwear for armour, and sporting gigantic disproportionate boobs? If the tables were flipped, men would be just as understandably angry about that kind of representation. Instead, men are misrepresented for positive reasons as empowerment, which is not the same thing as pandering to a different group to support their empowerment instead of your own, to those that argue the "men get it too!" side. If you're shouting down people that are continuously pointing out these problems, you might need to reflect why you're determined to not see why people are offended.

Oh, and just because I'm a female offended by some female representation, that does not mean I'm offended easily and I should just shut up and accept a medium that I can't control, as someone kindly told me in another thread.

Captcha: Top notch.

I sure hope so, thanks Captcha.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Oh come on now be honest with yourself. Do you really think the cheesecake in games is aimed at Lesbians? Do you REALLY think that? I don't see anything despicable about Anita's video but then I'm not the one having their privileged position attacked.

Again making money doesn't make sexism right any more than it makes racism right. But that's nothing I haven't said before.

What would people say if Coke came out and said. Oh we only market to white people. It's the same thing.

 

[b.w.irenicus]

I mean, are people seriously okay with women in games jumping about in underwear for armour, and sporting gigantic disproportionate boobs?

Well, I for myself am okay with it, yeah. What I am not okay with is lack of developed, well-rounded female leads and half-naked eye candy men in games . What is want to say: There is imo nothing wrong with T&A in games, it is however a problem if T&A is all female characters are good for. Variaty is the key. In the same way I don't think that a trope is bad in itself. Having a girl being rescued by a guy in your game doesn't have anything to do with sexism. If helpless gals being saved by tough guy would be all you get in all games however, yeah that would suck (and would be pretty boring as well).
Lastly, I simply disagree with Ms Sarkeesian that tropes in video games have any kind of relevant influence on society's views on women, the same way that is don't believe that violent video games have any serious influence on peoples RL.
Becaus stating that tropes exist does not equal proving they have influence on anybody. Like someone said before me, they are mere symptoms.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

My biggest issue is that alot of her examples are from old games. Sure the tropes within them still exist to some extend but alot of these games are from another time. It's like old movies with racism in them, things were different back then.

I personally think videogames are getting better and better at giving equal attention to both genders, but maybe i'm just a glass half full type of person.

One example being Saints Row 2.. Gender was a slider in that game.. A slider.. Doesn't get more gender equal than that.

But the player was still portrayed as a male character. You can put a female voice in there and the feminine ass waggle there too but every scene within a strip club wherein' the character was ogling a woman I felt that disconnect (not that the character couldn't have been a lesbian, but still).

I suppose a lot of them were older games because this gen has been trying very hard to erase women from existence. Sure they've been some good examples as of late (Bio-shocks Elizabeth, Lara Croft), but then shit like the Last of Us happen where marketing guys want to get the girl off the cover.

 

[generals3]

Oh come on now be honest with yourself. Do you really think the cheesecake in games is aimed at Lesbians? Do you REALLY think that? I don't see anything despicable about Anita's video but then I'm not the one having their privileged position attacked.

Again making money doesn't make sexism right any more than it makes racism right. But that's nothing I haven't said before.

What would people say if Coke came out and said. Oh we only market to white people. It's the same thing.

1) I will quote her for your convenience: "... And the damsel in distress trope as a recurring trend does help to normalize extremely toxic, patronizing and paternalistic attitudes about women." No evidence whatsoever which supports that and it is making a very big accusation. Dis-gus-ting.

And i Wasn't even thinking of Lesbians. Just women in general.

2) So you are also on a crusade against every single company out there for discriminatory marketing? If you can't even realize how silly it is to consider it morally wrong for a company to follow the holy trinity of marketing (Segmentation, positioning and targeting) than i'm sorry but i'm not going to try anymore.

3) If they can justify that coca cola is not liked by any other ethnicity than it would be 100% justified. You do realize this would also be the same as saying "we're targeting people of the age of 15-25" or "we're targeting people with a high disposable income".

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Oh wow. Replies that are testosterone fueled mockeries of anything resembling an actual response that isn't completely ad hominem, that manage to either twist, distort, or otherwise miss completely the points made by the topic creator as well as Anita's video. I'm...I'm not sure else I was expecting, honestly.

Which isn't to say that there aren't reasonable posts made within the topic, of course, but they're a minority against a shambling monstrosity of ignorance, misogyny, and all-around sexism that only serve to reinforce exactly why we need this video series, as well as developers to help contribute against this colossal embarrassment to the gaming community.

Sort of puts those arguments of how the Escapist is "Elitist" to rest for me, there is nothing special about the crop that visits here than any other gaming forum/site. Are you old wrinkled farts really that afraid of a woman's opinion that you'd rather just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend such issues don't exist?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip.

It's not ''disgusting'' to point out how sexism in media works...I'd say part of the evidence for what she is saying is men assaulting women dressed as female characters at cons and saying by the very act of dressing up as these characters they are 'asking for it'.

Again you just seem bitter that anyone dares to knock video games.

I would consider Coke marketing to white people only as racist and therefore abhorrent. However, let's not forget that video games are a medium and are much more capable of affecting societies views than a fizzy drink.

I can see you don't care that women are misrepresented though and you think representing them fairly would be a terrible tragedy for the medium.

 

[generals3]

It's not ''disgusting'' to point out how sexism in media works...I'd say part of the evidence for what she is saying is men assaulting women dressed as female characters at cons and saying by the very act of dressing up as these characters they are 'asking for it'.

Again you just seem bitter that anyone dares to knock video games.

I would consider Coke marketing to white people only as racist and therefore abhorrent. However, let's not forget that video games are a medium and are much more capable of affecting societies views than a fizzy drink.

I can see you don't care that women are misrepresented though and you think representing them fairly would be a terrible tragedy for the medium.

Making an unfounded claim which entails extremely harsh consequences is disgusting. And a very very biased sample of examples is not evidence.

I'm bitter because of the ludicrous claims made yes.

Why? Do you find companies targeting young people abhorrent? Agism is just as bad as racism you know. It's not because we don't talk about it every day on the news it's ok.

And come on, if video games affect society that much you have a much bigger problem at hand: violent video games. I prefer to raise a generation of sexists rather than one of psychopaths. (assuming games are sexist)

You seem to make a ridiculous amount of claims about my stances. I never said it would be a tragedy for the medium. I'm merely trying to keep feminist propaganda out of my hobby. You may not have noticed it but my avatar comes from MGS3, and do you know what MGS3 had? Very strong female characters. Eva and The Boss weren't characters to be laughed at, after all Eva managed to trick Snake (though she got tricked by Ocelot) and The Boss was his mentor. You see my eyes didn't bleed due to the awesomeness of the female characters, because with the exception of the protagonist i don't give a rats ass whether a character has a penis or a vagina.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

because with the exception of the protagonist i don't give a rats ass whether a character has a penis or a vagina.

Then why are you so insistent that videogames just have to have crap female characters and that there can't possibly be any improvement?

What you are saying you believe hardly correlates with your argument.

Would it really be so bad if video games have good female characters and protagonists?

 

[Abomination]

Oh wow. Replies that are testosterone fueled mockeries of anything resembling an actual response that isn't completely ad hominem, that manage to either twist, distort, or otherwise miss completely the points made by the topic creator as well as Anita's video. I'm...I'm not sure else I was expecting, honestly.

Which isn't to say that there aren't reasonable posts made within the topic, of course, but they're a minority against a shambling monstrosity of ignorance, misogyny, and all-around sexism that only serve to reinforce exactly why we need this video series, as well as developers to help contribute against this colossal embarrassment to the gaming community.

Sort of puts those arguments of how the Escapist is "Elitist" to rest for me, there is nothing special about the crop that visits here than any other gaming forum/site. Are you old wrinkled farts really that afraid of a woman's opinion that you'd rather just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend such issues don't exist?

Pot, meet kettle?

"You're a femi-nazi!"
"You're just saying that because you're a misogynist!"
"Nuh-uh!"
"Ya-huh!"

Progress!

 

[generals3]

because with the exception of the protagonist i don't give a rats ass whether a character has a penis or a vagina.

Then why are you so insistent that videogames just have to have crap female characters and that there can't possibly be any improvement?

What you are saying you believe hardly correlates with your argument.

Please point out where i claimed videogames have to have crap female characters. I justified that through market desires. My personal desires are barely relevant to that. I thought i made it clear over and over it is not the complaining that bugs me but the way it is done. I don't want my hobby to be infested by social rights movements trying to make gaming politically correct. It's just like I also don't want the anti-violence lobby infesting my hobby either. My games are about entertainment. You can make your case to why you don't find it entertainment but infesting it with social issues is just going to be extremely damaging for the industry on the long term (yes it is a slippery slope).

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

because with the exception of the protagonist i don't give a rats ass whether a character has a penis or a vagina.

Then why are you so insistent that videogames just have to have crap female characters and that there can't possibly be any improvement?

What you are saying you believe hardly correlates with your argument.

Please point out where i claimed videogames have to have crap female characters. I justified that through market desires. My personal desires are barely relevant to that. I thought i made it clear over and over it is not the complaining that bugs me but the way it is done. I don't want my hobby to be infested by social rights movements trying to make gaming politically correct. It's just like I also don't want the anti-violence lobby infesting my hobby either. My games are about entertainment. You can make your case to why you don't find it entertainment but infesting it with social issues is just going to be extremely damaging for the industry on the long term (yes it is a slippery slope).

So you don't like someone saying it in a publicly funded video series that no one insists you watched with a host that plays video games herself.

She isn't trying to ban video games hell she's not even suggesting people stop playing the ones she thinks are the worst offenders. Why are you acting like she is?

All she is doing is saying 'Guys you know maybe you could portray women a little better?'

Why is that so bad. It's no different to Yahtzee banging on about crap fps games or Jim about online DRM...

 

[Death666Angel]

My main issue with the thing is, that she implies some sort of malice on the part of the developers, publisher and possibly even gamers. She makes it seem like everyone is pushing an anti-women agenda to further their own male status. And that is just being paranoid.
The DiD is mostly lazy writing. Women can't rescue themselves in games? I think I've rescued thousands of men in my gamer life who couldn't rescue themselves either. And most male and female characters in games are really badly written, stereotypical or bland. Those are all tropes. But no trope is designed to hurt a single gender or enforce some sinister world view.
I also thought that the first part didn't really offer much in terms of content. She spent too much time setting up the premise. No one disagrees that the DiD exists. We all have read tvtropes.org. I would be interested in her take on more modern, more story driven games (I certainly don't play Mario and Zelda for their story arcs and great character development). And I would like to see her opinion on what a good game with female characters would be. Because often, developers/directors/writers can't win. When they put in a female character but have her be bland, some feminists will complain that she could just as easily have been a male or that she has no character. When there are tough, strong (physical) female fighters, some feminists complain that they are just exhibiting male definitions of strength but aren't actually strong females. When there are feminine characters that have feelings and insecurities and are good at some things but bad at others, some feminists will say that they are stereotypical women that aren't good role models. But they somehow never see that male characters go pretty much the same way. Gordon Freeman is a male character, but he could be female, he has no personality, he never talks. Most men in video games solve all their troubles with violence, which is a not a good role model for the modern male (violence is shunned in most of the institutions that care for children). So it's all very confusing and people like Ms Sarkeesian are in a position to enlighten, but she really doesn't. Her behavior towards her critics doesn't help. Her videos have locked comment section, ratings disabled and the way she makes herself out to be such a victim is really funny. You would think that she doesn't know that the internet is srz bsns and that shit hits the fan constantly. People like Salman Rushdie, Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens covered controversial topics. But they never tried to silence their opposition (even when there were credible threats to their life, unlike random threats posted on the internet), they stood up and engaged their critics and made themselves and the discussion better for it. Sarkeesian doesn't do any of that. I don't think she is a con artist as some have said because of her kickstarter. But she is clearly doing it to proliferate her own brand and make a livelyhood, not to further discussion or make the world a better place.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

My only real problem with Sarkeesian - and it's a pretty huge one - is that she's either ignorant or outright lying some of the time, so I've pretty much written her off as worthless to listen to.

 

[McMarbles]

snip

A good example is the bikini armour you brought up. That to me is 'contempt' for women. We can't really be heroes so we may as well be the sex appeal. A captured princess can't save herself a man has to do it. There's not room for women in this story beyond getting killed and providing motivation for the male lead. Do you not see how that is mysogynistic?

Don't you see how that is contemptuous.

Also just because women play Scarlet Blade doesn't mean it isn't sexist. You can be sexist against your own gender. That said I doubt many women play it.

Also I'd say they have an ingrained predjudice becuase as you are so eager to point out they are so often aimed at men.

What do you think of Red Sonja? This whole bikini armour got me to thinking and I was reminded of the fact that Gail Simone, celebrated female comic book writer, has taken over writing duties for the title.

Red Sonja is the lady version of Conan; she's a rude barbarian who loves to fight and kind of doesn't give a fuck. I sort of wonder if this is maybe a compromise between the sexualised and strong female leads in fiction.

I wanted to get your opinion because you obviously know your shit.

I didn't know Simone was doing Red Sonja.

I wonder how she's gonna reconcile that "I will only sleep with a man who can defeat me in combat" with the rape in Sonja's backstory. Seems.... I dunno... kinda messed up that a rape victim would offer herself to one who would violently subjugate her.

Am I wrong here?

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

I have a feeling that there's a lot of male game directors/producers/designers who would love to add more well-characterized female characters into games, but don't know how to go about it.

I mentally tried to put myself in the shoes of a designer, thinking of how I would make a female character that felt like a real person. It's a major issue, and where the real chicken and egg problem is. The only way I could create this character is from my personal perception of women. The industry has no problem hiring females, but something like 90% of the trade schools and resumes are male. The new Lara was a great, truly characterized female character because intelligent and talented women were involved in her creation at the conceptual level.

This also brings up the issue of why I would be designing this female character. Would it be because the story I wrote had a character that naturally felt female to me, or because I wanted to balance the scales and insert female characters in the interest of artificial equality? The latter would do nobody any favors. Even if, hypothetically, I was making this character specifically to make a feminist happy, I could never portray the ideal "feminist approved" female character the way a woman could.

I once saw a great interview with Ken Levine, where he was talking about his pre-System Shock working life. His publisher noticed the boom of Starcraft and other games in Korea, which led them to demand that he "make a game starring a Korean character". He couldn't, because he wasn't at all familiar with their culture or their innate desires. The character would just be the character he already had in mind, only with a different skin color and facial structure.

All of that said, there will always be sexual pandering in games. Just like there will always be porn, and Victoria's Secret super models (which are used to sell clothing to women!). If something seems ridiculous to you, just don't play it. Proudly and loudly proclaim that it offends you, but I just can't see how it affects the way women are treated in the real world.

To put my biases on the table, I'm a straight male who loves playing strong and well characterized female leads. In Demon's/Dark souls, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect 1-3, and any other game that gives me the option, I will choose female. I loved Mirror's Edge, Beyond Good and Evil, Tomb Raider 2013, Silent Hill 3, Parasite Eve (I could go on for a while with this...). For what it's worth, I would love to see more games explore the possibilities for both genders, but I just can't get behind forced equality just to say that there's a 50/50 split. It could only really please people at the surface level, and that's not the direction that we need to head.

Another aspect of this that appears to receive little attention is the distinction between Western and Eastern design. While things are changing for the better, Japan has a strongly ingrained cultural view of women that tends to show in a lot of their games. For an example, the Japanese word for "wife" can be translated as "in the house". Like I said, things are changing, and obviously they aren't a monoculture. However, pointing to Japanese designed games from the 90's, before pushes for change at the infrastructural and societal level were made, does no favors to the efforts and strides being made today in that regard.

This went on for much longer than I expected, and I can only hope that I actually made a point through all of this.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Can you think of any other hobby where people demand equality in such a radical manner? I can't and maybe that's why. Also think of what kind of desires they demand as if a developer can just out of thin air create the type of content they desire.

Can you think of any hobby where people demand anything in such a radical manner? *eyebrow raise* I mean gamers in general are very demanding. Making a (not particularly passionate) video series on Youtube is hardly sending cupcakes to the head office and 'holding the line'.

 

[TAGM]

Sorry. Wait, no. I'm not sorry. I'm really not sorry at all. Sorry I'm not sorry.

There's a lot of misconceptions about what she's saying in the video. A lot of strawman arguments about her video. And a lot of downright wrong and sometimes misogynists rebuttals of her videos.

On the other hand, I pretty much agree with pretty much everything in her video. Maybe not %100, but the very vast majority. Since there are a lot of videos attempting to, usually quite poorly explain why they disagree with her video, picking it apart piece by piece usually with strawman arguments and so forth.

[Verious arguments that are decent in terms of what she said]

So, I'm sorry I'm not sorry. Because she's right and I completely agree with her. Also, one common criticism of her video is that she's "playing captain obvious". And I agree that, yes, most of the stuff in her video should not be mindblowingly new to most people. Her points should be obvious. However, given how many people defensively and viciously disagree with her, I would say that stating the obvious is still quite important, because many people clearly do not see that her points are true.

Because remember kids, if you agree with it:
IT MUST BE TRUE!

*ahem.*
Anyway. I think the issue people have with Anita - other then "She a woman and takin' mah videageams away!" - isn't so much what she says. It's more the lines of what she implies, what she DOESN'T say, and the general way she handles critism. Lemme go through it, one at a time.

What she implies

Her points are all correct, yes. Well, some are arguable, but let's just leave that aside for now. But throughout her video - along with nearly every other video she's made - there's this implication, if not downright "fact" That this is all done because males, amirite? I'm not 100% sure if she's aiming to give that implication, but it feels like it to me, personally, and if she manages to give that impression to me and a fair few other people, something may well be going wrong with the way she's presenting it.

What she DOESN'T say.
First of all - Dinosaur Planet involved a male character as well as a female one from the beginning - that male character became Fox and took up both roles at once, yes. So why leave this part out? There doesn't seem to be any real reason to not say that, just to keep people from starting to argue that this fact is vitally important.

Also, what about newer games? Dinosaur Planet/ Star Fox Adventures is the newest game, technically, that she talked about, and that was, what, 7 years ago, at least? Then it's a history lesson, OK, and then... Mario and Zelda? Arcade games? You could argue that Zelda and Mario still do it, but then, you could argue that that isn't because of misogany so much as it makes a simple, easy, clear goal - which is what Nintendo would want, because they're busy trying to appeal to the masses that have yet to play video games.

It's a question of relevance to today. And really, didn't you have sort of the same issue yourself?

Later, here's the part I might take the most issue with, if anything. What she's doing is showing how the tropes are around, especially helped by many remakes. However, I think it comes off a bit counter-intuitive to her point about still being able to enjoy games with sexism in them. Overall I don't disagree, I love HD remakes, even if classic games had some sexist issues. And I'm a retro gamer in general. That being said, it does make me realize how new generation are going to continue to be exposed to the same old tropes. In this case, though, I would have broke away from the traditional example, and shown more modern games with the damsel in distress trope.

That is about the only decision in her video that I disagree with. Really.

And as for the other things she leaves out. She decides that the other Mario games besides the "Main line" don't count because... erm, erm, because, erm... Reasons. She says so. Why? Why would you want to leave out the games where Peach shows ability to drive, fight, play party games, and do just about everything Mario does, up to and including saving frickin' Mario herself? Oh, yeah, because that might, you know, destroy her point. And that's the final thing:

The way she (doesn't) handle criticism.

Anita does not handle criticism. She doesn't even address it. She keeps herself to her little bubble on the internet, that only expanded when she decided to go on the attack with video games, the community of which unfortunately contains a fair few people that decided that, no really, if we act misogynist, she'll go away!
Now, if it were any other video, she would have just blocked the comments immediately - because that's what she's done with just about every other video on her channel. But then, she leaves it open for a bit, to "prove that this is an issue." Wasn't the proof already available, given the other comment sections that - oh wait, never mind. She could have proved it beforehand, but... Hmm.
Let me come right out and say it, and stop dancing around on implications - Anita is quite likely a fraud. Her actions CAN be explained by things besides "I wanted money," but in all honesty, they're flimsy justifications at best. And never mind how she decided that, instead of making the videos, she'd run about for about 6 months talking about how she just got sooooo hated for this.
And that's another thing - as far as I know, her presentations were basically how she won victory over all the video game trolls, and also as far as I know, no mention was made of the various video game news articles that basically said "This is really important and you guys suck for hating her" - despite the fact she knew about them. This is clear because she advertised them on her blog.

And all of this is explainable, maybe. There are various explanations that COULD be right, but you know what would be nice? If Anita gave us her side of the story. You know, addressed criticism? Besides the criticism of "Get back in kitchen lolz", I mean. It's that that's letting people like me down more then anything - not that she could well be a fraud, per say, but that she never addresses any criticism that isn't outright wrong or misogamist. It's that action that starts to give hints towards "she's doing this for money" - not what she's doing as much as what she's not doing - explaining herself to the people that question her. If it had an easy explanation, she would just give it and clear the airspace, right? But she hasn't. Why? She's either not paying attention to any criticism - which is a bad thing in and of itself - or she DOESN'T have an easy explanation.

And please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there aren't some issues with the way women are treated in video games. They do get the short end of the stick most of the time, and that's something that would be nice to change, yes. But to trumpet Anita as the leader of this movement is like putting an elephant rider at the head of an army - it just takes the right amount of scaring and the sharp points of "She doesn't listen to any criticism" and "She's missed points out for no reason" and the elephant could easily end up trampling its own army while running away from the points.