So i finally got around to Dragon Age II, not very happy with Bioware.

[Gankytim]

So last week I grabbed DAII off EA's Origin thinking I'd see if it was as bad as everyone said or if the hate is just because of the fact that you can only play Human + the dialogue wheel.

I didn't like it one bit.

Just a quick rundown of the most glaring errors.

* Can't zoom out and get a proper tactical view like in DA:O
* Enemies continue jumping down to fight, meaning no encounter is as it looks, you constantly have to recheck around yourself to make sure the encounter is FINALLY done. The constant waves are made even worse by the lack of a tactical camera.
* No coherent story, randomly connecting three events together at the end just feels unsatisfying as there was no major plot goal. I'm actually shocked at the plot here, is this actually Bioware?
* Party member interaction feels less fun, it's mostly stripped right out of the game.
* RE-USED LEVELS, holy shit. I'm actually mad, like straight up fucking mad. How can re-use of all these assets be justified in any way? The one golden rule of levels is no copy/paste. The most insipid level design to come out of Bioware and I played the fade.

That's straight up put a sour taste in my mouth for Bioware and I was planning on getting Inquisition but now I'm second guessing it. I mean, how can they justify this product going on the market? I can't.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So last week I grabbed DAII off EA's Origin thinking I'd see if it was as bad as everyone said or if the hate is just because of the fact that you can only play Human + the dialogue wheel.

I didn't like it one bit.

Just a quick rundown of the most glaring errors.

* Can't zoom out and get a proper tactical view like in DA:O
* Enemies continue jumping down to fight, meaning no encounter is as it looks, you constantly have to recheck around yourself to make sure the encounter is FINALLY done. The constant waves are made even worse by the lack of a tactical camera.
* No coherent story, randomly connecting three events together at the end just feels unsatisfying as there was no major plot goal. I'm actually shocked at the plot here, is this actually Bioware?
* Party member interaction feels less fun, it's mostly stripped right out of the game.
* RE-USED LEVELS, holy shit. I'm actually mad, like straight up fucking mad. How can re-use of all these assets be justified in any way? The one golden rule of levels is no copy/paste. The most insipid level design to come out of Bioware and I played the fade.

That's straight up put a sour taste in my mouth for Bioware and I was planning on getting Inquisition but now I'm second guessing it. I mean, how can they justify this product going on the market? I can't.

Dragon Age 2 quite famously had a ludicrously truncated development time. Estimates top off at 12-14 months and are as low as 8 months. Goes a long way towards explaining the heavy asset reuse, and the fact that there are a lot of plot elements that seem to only thinly hang together, with a lot of pacing issues. In spite of this, they managed to release a functioning and for the most part enjoyable title, that didn't completely shame the franchise. Bioware should probably be lauded for salvaging what they could from an almost no-win situation. The developers run by EA haven't always been so lucky [http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ultima/ultima10.htm].

Dragon Age: Inquisition has been in development for 3.5 years. That in no way, shape or form is a guarantee that it will represent a return to form, but it demonstrates a much better show of faith by EA and a much better opportunity for Bioware to make good on this opportunity for redemption.

 

[shrekfan246]

* RE-USED LEVELS, holy shit. I'm actually mad, like straight up fucking mad. How can re-use of all these assets be justified in any way? The one golden rule of levels is no copy/paste. The most insipid level design to come out of Bioware and I played the fade.

Funny enough, the first Mass Effect actually did exactly the same thing. With the exception of I think one or two quests which involved the Rachni, there are only roughly three or four actual area designs for side-quests. The most common is the base design used for the side-quest on Luna where you're shutting down the rogue AI; The exact same design is used in a vast majority of the other side-quests found within the game, with the only differences being the placement of boxes. The other primary base design is the one that functions more like a warehouse, for instance like the one on the planet where you can find Wrex's family armor. Then there are spaceships, which often use the exact same layout as the one used in Garrus' companion quest to kill the doctor that got away from him years earlier; Same design is used for almost every other ship you board.

There are maybe two or three other layouts which aren't excessively reused because they're designed for specific quests, but the vast majority are literally just copy-pasted. The only difference is that you're driving around on all of the rocky terrain planets (and I'm sure a more enterprising individual than myself could point out similarities between many of them as well), but I don't think that would really excuse reused level design.

 

[EternallyBored]

* RE-USED LEVELS, holy shit. I'm actually mad, like straight up fucking mad. How can re-use of all these assets be justified in any way? The one golden rule of levels is no copy/paste. The most insipid level design to come out of Bioware and I played the fade.

Funny enough, the first Mass Effect actually did exactly the same thing. With the exception of I think one or two quests which involved the Rachni, there are only roughly three or four actual area designs for side-quests. The most common is the base design used for the side-quest on Luna where you're shutting down the rogue AI; The exact same design is used in a vast majority of the other side-quests found within the game, with the only differences being the placement of boxes. The other primary base design is the one that functions more like a warehouse, for instance like the one on the planet where you can find Wrex's family armor. Then there are spaceships, which often use the exact same layout as the one used in Garrus' companion quest to kill the doctor that got away from him years earlier; Same design is used for almost every other ship you board.

There are maybe two or three other layouts which aren't excessively reused because they're designed for specific quests, but the vast majority are literally just copy-pasted. The only difference is that you're driving around on all of the rocky terrain planets (and I'm sure a more enterprising individual than myself could point out similarities between many of them as well), but I don't think that would really excuse reused level design.

I think the difference is that with the planets the sameness was mitigated by the rather odd Mako mechanic, which some people loved screwing around with and others hated. Either way, the planet exploration is still generally cited as one of the most hated aspects of ME1 so even there people were talking about lazy asset reuse. People don't pin the criticism on the game as a whole because the actual main story was mostly unique assets and maps, whereas with DA2 even the main story missions would reuse maps and just block or unblock certain passages as needed when used for side quests.

It became infinitely more noticeable when you were going into different caves and realized that it was literally just the same cave system with a boulder blocking a path or a door being open that was locked before, especially when that reuse started intruding into the main quest lines.

 

[shrekfan246]

Snip

Well, yes. My point is that if the "golden rule" of level design is to never copy-paste, then Mass Effect is every bit as guilty as Dragon Age II, and yet never gets knocked for it. Oh yeah, people complain about the Mako in general all the time, but I think I've only ever seen two other people aside from myself on these forums ever even mention the fact that most of the bases in the game are copy-pasted from other places in the game.

 

[EternallyBored]

Snip

Well, yes. My point is that if the "golden rule" of level design is to never copy-paste, then Mass Effect is every bit as guilty as Dragon Age II, and yet never gets knocked for it. Oh yeah, people complain about the Mako in general all the time, but I think I've only ever seen two other people aside from myself on these forums ever even mention the fact that most of the bases in the game are copy-pasted from other places in the game.

Most people don't mention it because most people gave up on the Mako exploration before they could notice the copy/paste base design, most people complain about the side missions in general, and the lazy base design is usually lumped in with those, and a lot of people never even saw much of the cut and paste bases because they avoided the mako exploration entirely.

Mass Effect is indeed guilty of this, but DAII took it a step further and allowed it to intrude on the main story missions, and didn't hide it behind another mechanic like the mako which probably drew criticism away from people noticing the samey base design.

 

[tippy2k2]

I thought they hid the re-used locations quite well

Spoiler

See! It's not the same thing!

I've stood by this statement and I'll state it again because I like to hear myself speak; if Dragon Age II was released under a different name, it would have been considered good to pretty good; not great but not the worst thing to have ever happened to gaming ever that some people seem to treat it as.

Now granted, it IS a Dragon Age game so that has to be in play but I thought the game was fine. It was rough and Dragon Age I was better but II made some pretty drastic changes; some struck home and others failed badly. Overall, I thought it was a good game that could have used a lot more time to work out the kinks.

 

[Tayh]

That's... Facinating.
Only, you're 3 years late in complaining about the exact same things that people complained about when the game was actually new and relevant.
It's not that I disagree with your criticism, I just think it's a bit late to get outraged about.

Huh. 3 years, already? And I still haven't finished the game. Left somewhere in chapter 3. Just can't find any enthusiasm to finish it, what with it being such a disappointing sequel.

 

[ThriKreen]

Funny enough, the first Mass Effect actually did exactly the same thing. With the exception of I think one or two quests which involved the Rachni, there are only roughly three or four actual area designs for side-quests.

Well, people explained it away as prefab colony buildings or common ship/freighter designs, which works a lot better than reused caves.

The sad reality was that there was plans for more variety for the UNCs (uncharted worlds), just not enough time could be spent. I think about half of the planned sidequests were cut, to give you an idea.

Dragon Age 2 quite famously had a ludicrously truncated development time. Estimates top off at 12-14 months and are as low as 8 months.

Sadly, it's not true at all - maybe 1 year for production, but planning and prototyping was happening at least a year before, started just as DAO was in lockdown.

People keep thinking development happens sequentially but it's often a lot of departments working in parallel.

 

[Longing]

i have faith in bioware. i think they know what people didn't like and will not make the same mistakes again... now we just have to see what new mess they'll make instead.

honestly though, as someone who liked da2, i think the new da will be a lot better.

 

[michael87cn]

Yeah that was a very bad game. I paid 59.99 for it because the demo made it seem awesome. Of course, it wasn't awesome at all....

 

[Wulfram77]

Mass Effect kept the re-use to sidequests, IIRC. DA2, not so much.

It also made pretty good use of those ubiquitous crates to create different tactical environments.

And, yeah, DA2 has problems, though I still had fun because I'm a sucker for Bioware's games.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Re: Mass Effect, it used a pseudo-randomised, generic base with moveable crates to reconfigure the layout, and only for brief encounters during side quests. One could, in-universe, put it down to a single manufacturer of DIY planetary outpost construction sets that are modular, have lots of storage options, come with protective turrets (optional extra) and are highly resistant to infiltration by SPECTREs, or your money back.

Re: DA2, I paid for the Signature Edition and DLC extras and was disappointed. The airdropped waves of enemies, the reuse of "the cave" and "the mansion" were awful and thoroughly broke immersion. The story was a disjointed and non-cohesive mess, the characters (ordinarily BioWare's greatest strength) varied from good (Varric, Aveline, Bethany) to horrid (Anders, Carver) and the plain unbelievably stupid (Isabella, Merryl, Slave-Elf-Dude). The ending was an awful payoff which resolved little to nothing and considering the nature of Kirkwall, the fact that Magi-Hawke can run around without comment is story-breaking.

The more WoW like action oriented combat was a turn off too, as was the removal of companion gear (what's the point in all the weapons and armour, seriously?) and after the fantastic "Origin" stories element, it was removed entirely in favour of giving us a human, voiced character. Why did they do that when all the fans would've preferred a choice of race? In short, for a sequel to have so many fewer features than it's predecessor, the supreme dumbing down across the board, the "cinematic story" aspect no one really wanted all for the thing we were promised which was a "living, breathing city" that "changed according to our actions" and so on but wasn't delivered on.

They could've made another, phenomenal expansion to Origins with a year of development, instead we got a whole new half-baked sequel. Why not another class, origin story and 15-25 hour campaign? DA:O wasn't even cold and BW dropped it like a hot potatoe when it had so much potential for ongoing content and support.

 

[crazygameguy4ever]

I might be among the few people who thought that Dragon Age 2 was superior and more fun then Dragon Age Origins and Awakening.. i've never seen a problem with DA 2.. i just started a new game of it yesterday and it's just as much as the first time i played it. don't know why people hate Dragon Age 2

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

don't know why people hate Dragon Age 2

I explained the majority of the reasons in the post above yours In short, a combination of terrible level design, less options than the first game, a switch from tactical combat to more action-rpg style, disjointed story and more. Read above to learn more.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

What I find the most lazy about the recycled level design is that they don't even try to hide it on the minimap. The minimap literally showed the entire cave diagram every time, even though half the regions were blocked by rocks.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

What I find the most lazy about the recycled level design is that they don't even try to hide it on the minimap. The minimap literally showed the entire cave diagram every time, even though half the regions were blocked by rocks.

yupp, as someone who actively uses their minimap in every game (any halo player worth their salt constantly has their peripheral vision locked on that minimap) to make sure I didn't miss any small caves/hidden loot areas I was really frustrated that they didn't fix the minimaps

Also, I like how all the caves had door frames...and they couldn't even put the rock like wall to cover it so there was quite obviously a door there.

ALOT of DA2's flaws could be overlooked in a great game...but when you (whoops stupid page posted for me before i finished) add them all up into one game, it really brings the game down as you run into the flaws every other second.

 

[Godhead]

* RE-USED LEVELS, holy shit. I'm actually mad, like straight up fucking mad. How can re-use of all these assets be justified in any way? The one golden rule of levels is no copy/paste. The most insipid level design to come out of Bioware and I played the fade.

Funny enough, the first Mass Effect actually did exactly the same thing. With the exception of I think one or two quests which involved the Rachni, there are only roughly three or four actual area designs for side-quests. The most common is the base design used for the side-quest on Luna where you're shutting down the rogue AI; The exact same design is used in a vast majority of the other side-quests found within the game, with the only differences being the placement of boxes. The other primary base design is the one that functions more like a warehouse, for instance like the one on the planet where you can find Wrex's family armor. Then there are spaceships, which often use the exact same layout as the one used in Garrus' companion quest to kill the doctor that got away from him years earlier; Same design is used for almost every other ship you board.

There are maybe two or three other layouts which aren't excessively reused because they're designed for specific quests, but the vast majority are literally just copy-pasted. The only difference is that you're driving around on all of the rocky terrain planets (and I'm sure a more enterprising individual than myself could point out similarities between many of them as well), but I don't think that would really excuse reused level design.

I think the difference is that with the planets the sameness was mitigated by the rather odd Mako mechanic, which some people loved screwing around with and others hated. Either way, the planet exploration is still generally cited as one of the most hated aspects of ME1 so even there people were talking about lazy asset reuse. People don't pin the criticism on the game as a whole because the actual main story was mostly unique assets and maps, whereas with DA2 even the main story missions would reuse maps and just block or unblock certain passages as needed when used for side quests.

It became infinitely more noticeable when you were going into different caves and realized that it was literally just the same cave system with a boulder blocking a path or a door being open that was locked before, especially when that reuse started intruding into the main quest lines.

One of my favorite parts of ME1 was the planet exploration with the mako.

Sure the mako was a horrible pile of shit, but driving along in it while hearing the wind as your only background noise outside of the wheels turning and the hum of the engine really gave a game with a scale of the galaxy and how insignificant it can make you feel. It was wonderful.

I was really sad when ME2 replaced the planet exploration with the planet probing, and I felt that there was a small return to the sense of scale in ME3 with all of those e-mails you would get on the Normandy, saying about how so-and-so died in a far off system.

 

[EternallyBored]

Snip

Personally, while the Mako was flawed, it had potential, and the jumpjets could be some good old fashioned stupid fun, if only they gave you some more varied planets to play around on.

The problem was, the mako and the somewhat tedious process of just finding a planet you could land the mako on were at the forefront of complaints, I think that's why not many people complained too much about the copy/paste bases, because most people abandoned doing side missions before they noticed that there was only 4 base layouts used in the whole game.

If DAII had required you to walk over a bunch of low detail kind of boring landscapes on your way to every side quest, and made you wade through 10 locations you couldn't actually travel to before taking you off the world map, people likely would have been complaining about that because most people would have gotten bored and quite before noticing the cut/past dungeons.

 

[tangoprime]

Am I the only one who actually liked DA2? Even the reused caves, it almost gave an artificial sense of getting to know the area in and around Kirkwall better over the years, since there are several years of adventuring in between the chapters. Really, am I the only one who thought about it this way?