So I found a video called "Why The Elder Scrolls Isnt Dumbing Down".......

[BeeGeenie]

The guy makes a few good points, while also completely missing the point.

He says the quest system in Morrowind was broken because a few NPCs gave bad directions... but at least they tried, which is more than the NPCs in Skyrim do. It was more immersive than a GPS tracker.

The NPC plot armor makes sense, but I never thought of that as dumbing down anyway.

My concerns have always been the stats/leveling system and the removal of the spell crafting system. Both systems had their flaws, but simple =/= better.
I can go either way on the combat system, it has improved throughout the series, but I never had a problem with the stat based aspect of Morrow.
Bring back underwater combat. Slaughterfish must die by my hand. Srsly.

 

[CaptainChip]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Differences_Between_Morrowind,_Oblivion,_and_Skyrim

Here's a useful link comparing all of the games, note that most of the changes are removal of features.

 

[endtherapture]

Oblivion's...Erm...Yeah, well you get the point.

Oblivion definitely had the best quest design in all of the TES games. Those Dark Brotherhood and Thief's Guild quests are amazing.

 

[Auron]

I never got the hate for streamlining a game and making it more open. I mean, lets be honest, the levelling system in Morrowind was bad, it took some people at least 3 attempts to create a character that suited them in Morrowind and Oblivion, and I distinctly remember using a bow close range (as in directly in front of me) and missing...even though the screens image showed the arrow going directly through his chest. Is Skyrim more simple? Yes, it is. Is that a bad thing? No, not really.

Simplifying it made it far easier and less interesting, creating characters within a theme was far more interesting than the "I'll just do everything" thing in Skyrim, it's a bad thing to many of us. While I'm a big defender of more freedom in games the freedom to do everything all at the same time is not exactly what I want.

The one "advantage" is making it more accessible to twitchy people who like to shoot things and not think a lot... It makes money but I'm not seeing many advantages otherwise.

 

[Festus Moonbear]

He also complains about the immersion being broken, when everyone besides the Nords (INCLUDING THE NON-HUMAN/ELF RACES) speak in US dialects.

That dog. That bloody talking dog. A good character he might have been, I suppose, but I don't think I've ever had my immersion so thoroughly smashed in my life as it was at the moment that dog started to speak. I almost quit the game right then, although I'm glad I didn't because obviously it's awesome on the whole. But the dog with the Woody Allen accent serving the Daedra with the Norman Lovett accent(I shit you not) is something I've had to drink a lot of fine mead to put behind me. Eeesh.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Mainly take morrowind add skill system from fallout 3(with a slider as so you can slow down by X10 the normal rate of growth), refine the AI so its not stupid in a fight, refine the active lockpick game, give a choice of do lock based on skill or via the mini game. Keep the enchantment system from morromwind but refine it to the point you can do 10X more stat changes. As for classes just have perks based on skills.

As far as VA goes I do not mind it but if you are going to do it use a voice filter to make your 5(who can sound like 10) voice actors sound like 50.... we have the tech USE IT.........

 

[Vern5]

Snipsis

I've seen that video before. It was made in response to another video called "Why The Elder scrolls is Dumbing Down". Both are generally bad videos with a few good points lost midst the fan-rage.


I feel like this video is a better assessment of the Elder Scrolls as a series.

OT: The Elder scrolls has not been dumbing down OR streamlining. The entire nature of the series has been Mutating. Streamlining would imply that previous systems are being reworked and improved for ease of use. Bethesda doesn't really do this; they just eliminate certain mechanics. Dumbing down would imply that content is being lost. This doesn't seem to be the case, either, as content is being replaced rather than lost. We lost Repair but gained Smithing. We lost Spellmaking but gained a perk system. I know it doesn't exactly equal out but you should get the idea of what I'm saying. Content-wise, The Elder Scrolls has stayed consistent, which is neither good nor bad.

I do have one complaint about the direction of the Elder Scrolls series. Bethesda really needs to stop wanking over Dungeons. Ever since Oblivion, Todd Howard and his team have been guiding the Elder Scrolls series towards a dungeon-exploring genre. This needs to stop. No, we don't need to lose the dungeons entirely but the entire series shouldn't just be about dungeons!

Look at your skills and skill perks. All but a few are designed to help you navigate, clear, and loot dungeons. We lost the disposition system and Speechcraft skill because "you can't argue with people in dungeons". We lost item durability because "you don't want your sword to break in the middle of a dungeon". And now all of the dungeons are built to have a quick exit once you get to the end.

BETHESDA STREAMLINED THEIR DUNGEONS. It's a little ridiculous.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Apples and oranges. Different strokes and all that.

One friend of mine fell head over heels for Morrowind. She's a hardcore role-player and consistently refers to Morrowind as being the best in the series. She loved being forced to get lost and thought there was just so much more lore and general possibilities for escapism. The combat barely seemed to be an issue for her, more than likely because The Elder Scrolls make up her one and only entry point into the hardcore gaming scene. Otherwise, she's mostly a casual and has never really experienced anything other than Morrowind's combat system.

Naturally, she has a personal bias towards it.

I couldn't get past the first five minutes of Morrowind. On the other end, I sunk in hours and hours into Oblivion and Skyrim. I suck at spatial orientation, so giving me a bunch of cryptic directions and expecting me to wing it was not fun at all. If the waypoint system broke the game's overall flow in Skyrim, I could always fall back on occasional uses of Clairvoyance.

I also came to love the option Skyrim gave me to shift through several playstyles for a single character. The natural penalties applied to having under-levelled skills made sense, while I could still imagine situations where my pure mage might want to deviate from his set path and start shooting arrows. In oblivion, the specializations felt extremely restrictive, even if they did give you a sense of focused character progression.

Considering, this discussion feels really moot. There's no "objectively better" set of game mechanics in something as wide-ranging as role-playing games. I understand why fans of the series would enjoy a consistent level of challenge from episode to episode, but this is ultimately Bethesda's baby.

Without their involvement and the decisions that led to everything from Oblivion to Fallout 3 to Skyrim to exist in the way they do, I wouldn't have played or enjoyed what I consider to be some of the finest Western RPGs out there.

Again, though - Apples and oranges. Let people like the games they like. How hard can that be?

 

[Something Amyss]

I really want to scream every time he mentions "immersion," especially since he seems to think "realism=immersion." Even if not, he mentions realism frequently enough that it strikes me as a bad thing. I don't want to have a realistic fantasy game. That's why I'm playing a fantasy game. It really seems like he's immersed in the system enough as-is. This falls into the usual crap of "things I dislike break my immersion," which is either wrong or probably means you weren't immersed in the first place.

And while we're at it, I'd like to see more quests with bad directions. It's realistic, and therefore immersive. So let's not just do away with the quest marker, but also the uncanny accuracy of most quest givers. I'm so sick of a functional system where I can find what I'm after.

(Yes, I know his point was to the contrary. This is more to the critics of a functional system)

 

[Gecko clown]

Morrowind is the best ES game from a nostalgia point of view. People remember it much better than it actually was.

After playing Oblivion and Skyrim (both of which I thoroughly enjoyed) I was told "Play Morrowind, its the best of the three."

To my dismay I found it was borderline unplayable, I got bored incredibly quickly because the combat was so lackluster. I found myself thinking, "If this played like Skyrim, or even like Oblivion, it would be the best game of the three."

Skyrim is not ES for "filthy casuals" its better. It is a straight up, better game with better dungeons, combat and a better world.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

My major criticism with Skyrim's "dumbing down" was that they took out the ability to make spells but now I realize that was stupid. By making it so you could get spells as books, they suddenly became a more valuable commodity. Not only that, but by throwing away the standard formula for spells (magnitude, area of effect, on target/on touch) it allowed for a huge variety of different spells. Now when I leveled up magic it wasn't "yay now I can make spells with 25 points more magitude" but rather "gee what spells can I get HOLY BALLS! I CAN SHOOT A TORRENT OF LIGHTNING NOW!"

People need to throw away the nostalgia goggles. I liked Morrowind and I played after I played oblivion and I played skyrim after oblivion and skyrim is clearly the best. Sure in Morrowind you could equip left and right gloves and boots but does that really add anything? I think oblivion and especially skyrim's focus on making elements like the enemies and world more realistic made the game more immersive than "hey I have the option to wear only one shoe"

if a dragon killed Ulfric while I was making my first walk to Whiterun I would be pissed!

Something along these lines happened to a friend of mine in Oblivion. He couldn't complete the Dark Brotherhood because he needed to talk to that orc butler in Skingrad. The marker was pointing him to the bridge where he normally was... Except it turned out he was face down dead in the ravine under the bridge. Probably couldn't take the insults from being an orc butler anymore and jumped to his death

Captcha: "describe this brand with any words" Ok. shit

 

[BeeGeenie]

Spoiler: Click to View

I've seen that video before. It was made in response to another video called "Why The Elder scrolls is Dumbing Down". Both are generally bad videos with a few good points lost midst the fan-rage.


I feel like this video is a better assessment of the Elder Scrolls as a series.

OT: The Elder scrolls has not been dumbing down OR streamlining. The entire nature of the series has been Mutating. Streamlining would imply that previous systems are being reworked and improved for ease of use. Bethesda doesn't really do this; they just eliminate certain mechanics. Dumbing down would imply that content is being lost. This doesn't seem to be the case, either, as content is being replaced rather than lost. We lost Repair but gained Smithing. We lost Spellmaking but gained a perk system. I know it doesn't exactly equal out but you should get the idea of what I'm saying. Content-wise, The Elder Scrolls has stayed consistent, which is neither good nor bad.

I do have one complaint about the direction of the Elder Scrolls series. Bethesda really needs to stop wanking over Dungeons. Ever since Oblivion, Todd Howard and his team have been guiding the Elder Scrolls series towards a dungeon-exploring genre. This needs to stop. No, we don't need to lose the dungeons entirely but the entire series shouldn't just be about dungeons!

Look at your skills and skill perks. All but a few are designed to help you navigate, clear, and loot dungeons. We lost the disposition system and Speechcraft skill because "you can't argue with people in dungeons". We lost item durability because "you don't want your sword to break in the middle of a dungeon". And now all of the dungeons are built to have a quick exit once you get to the end.

BETHESDA STREAMLINED THEIR DUNGEONS. It's a little ridiculous.

Wow, never thought of it that way, but you are right! They eliminated any need to backtrack, and I can understand why they would do that, but it does kind of feel like they went FPS mode and said "What can we do to make this sandbox more linear?" (wouldn't want the console tards getting bored, would we?)

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Morrowind is the best ES game from a nostalgia point of view. People remember it much better than it actually was.

After playing Oblivion and Skyrim (both of which I thoroughly enjoyed) I was told "Play Morrowind, its the best of the three."

To my dismay I found it was borderline unplayable, I got bored incredibly quickly because the combat was so lackluster. I found myself thinking, "If this played like Skyrim, or even like Oblivion, it would be the best game of the three."

Skyrim is not ES for "filthy casuals" its better. It is a straight up, better game with better dungeons, combat and a better world.

While I agree with everything else you say (I was bored breathless while being incredibly frustrated by Morrowind too), saying that Skyrim has better dungeons than Morrowind or even Oblivion is just plain wrong. In Skyrim the dungeons are effectively garden hoses with maybe one alternate path that takes about one minute to see to the end, and then it's back to the main one. In Oblivion the dungeons and caves sprawled and twisted, and that was one of the most exciting aspects of Oblivion for me: never knowing how far the caves would go and what I would find down there. Plus in Oblivion's dungeons you often had multiple choices to approach, with no Draugr popping instantly out of caskets to throw you immediately into combat. In Oblivion you could sneak, fight, pick the enemies off one by one or just often pass them by entirely.

 

[DoPo]

I really want to scream every time he mentions "immersion," especially since he seems to think "realism=immersion." Even if not

Imma stop you right there - he made a comment about how spending a couple of hours to put on a full plate armour would help immersion. It made me cringe.

And while we're at it, I'd like to see more quests with bad directions. It's realistic, and therefore immersive.

What I'd actually add to that is: have bad directions but also be able to ask for directions. That's it - it's an easy fix - be able to go up to somebody and say "Yo, where's this place" and they can be like "Du-u-ude, you had to turn left over there" or even "Erm, you gotta map? I can show you there". Daggerfall did it. I thought it was a neat feature.

Skyrim is not ES for "filthy casuals" its better. It is a straight up, better game with better dungeons, combat and a better world.

Would you mind quantifying "better"? Do you rate it with stars or do you just give them marks out of 100? How much did Oblivion score? You know what, I don't believe you. I have the suspicion you're lying. And I do so because if you actually found an objective way to measure this stuff, then the universe would have most probably been wiped out. I think what you're saying is "Skyrim is not ES for "filthy casuals" its better I like it. It is a straight up, better game I straight up like it better with better dungeons I like the dungeons more, combat I like the combat more and a better world I like the world more." Which is a tad different than the initial claim.

In all fairness, the combat is more responsive and engaging. It took the better aspects of Oblivion and built on them, which is really nice. Though the extent to which it appeals to people is still up to the people themselves. The dungeons...eh, I don't think I can say anything bad about them, nothing good either - they were there. The world part is arguable, depending on what exactly do you mean by that. Size? Yes, Skyrim is bigger than Morrowind. Landscape? Eh, mountains and stuff. It looks really nice but that's the graphics engine at play. Navigation? That was actually horrendous - unless you have a horse, you must stay on the roads and take the long way around obstacles, even if you are pretty much next to them on the map.

My major criticism with Skyrim's "dumbing down" was that they took out the ability to make spells but now I realize that was stupid. By making it so you could get spells as books, they suddenly became a more valuable commodity. Not only that, but by throwing away the standard formula for spells (magnitude, area of effect, on target/on touch) it allowed for a huge variety of different spells. Now when I leveled up magic it wasn't "yay now I can make spells with 25 points more magitude" but rather "gee what spells can I get HOLY BALLS! I CAN SHOOT A TORRENT OF LIGHTNING NOW!"

And what is the reason you think it won't be fun to tinker with the sliders of a torrent of lightning spell as well as the other stuff?

People need to throw away the nostalgia goggles. I liked Morrowind and I played after I played oblivion and I played skyrim after oblivion and skyrim is clearly the best.

I played Morrowind first, then I played Oblivion, then Daggerfall around 2010 (a bit after it was released for free), then Skyrim. I'm also replaying Morrowind now...although at this very moment the playthrough is on hold. Daggerfall is probably my second favourite TES title just a bit before Skyrim. But, nah, that's clearly nostalgia speaking, amiright?

Sure in Morrowind you could equip left and right gloves and boots but does that really add anything? I think oblivion and especially skyrim's focus on making elements like the enemies and world more realistic made the game more immersive than "hey I have the option to wear only one shoe"

Realism. Immersion. I have words but they are not suited for here. Here is what I'll say, though - even though I rather liked Skyrim overall, probably one of the bigger...nay, it's actually the biggest problem I had with it - the thing that nagged me all throughout the game enough to rise to my personal #1 spot in annoyingness is the following - clothing glued to NPCs. That's it. You kill some people (I think guards suffered from it) and you can only take a helm or something from them, not all their clothes. Every time I saw that I was like "What? O-o-oh...why? O-o-oh...". I may not even want to take their clothes but when I loot a corpse and find nothing it just bugs me - there clearly isn't nothing on that corpse.

 

[Mr.Savage]

Oblivion's...Erm...Yeah, well you get the point.

Oblivion definitely had the best quest design in all of the TES games. Those Dark Brotherhood and Thief's Guild quests are amazing.

I agree, those quest lines were indeed quite good, however I'm not sure I'd say Oblivion had the best quest design of the series...I haven't really played all that much of Morrowind or Skyrim to be able judge though, really.

I think If I had to choose one, I'd pick Skyrim for that honor. Whilst those 2 quest lines were really fun, the overall experience with all the quests in Oblivion leave me...Wanting. Most of them are pretty underwhelming, from what I recall.

Also, I just remembered the Shivering Isles DLC for Oblivion...That was actually really good, some of the best gameplay to be had in the game, I'd argue.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

My major criticism with Skyrim's "dumbing down" was that they took out the ability to make spells but now I realize that was stupid. By making it so you could get spells as books, they suddenly became a more valuable commodity. Not only that, but by throwing away the standard formula for spells (magnitude, area of effect, on target/on touch) it allowed for a huge variety of different spells. Now when I leveled up magic it wasn't "yay now I can make spells with 25 points more magitude" but rather "gee what spells can I get HOLY BALLS! I CAN SHOOT A TORRENT OF LIGHTNING NOW!"

And what is the reason you think it won't be fun to tinker with the sliders of a torrent of lightning spell as well as the other stuff?

The spells in Oblivion were completely nerfed because of the sliders. I don't want spells that are strategically 25 or 30 points stronger and use the same animation. Maybe its me but it takes away whole "magic" thing when you just quantify everything. I want my spells to feel stronger, not just do more damage. It feels empowering when a master wizard can suddenly summon an ice storm rather than use the same spell they learned at level 1 but now does 100 points of damage instead of 25. Maybe they should have taken these spells and their affects and let you customize them and it would have been amazing. I accept that. But to say that Oblivion's and Morrowind's magic system was better just because you could play with some sliders is not something I can agree with

I played Morrowind first, then I played Oblivion, then Daggerfall around 2010 (a bit after it was released for free), then Skyrim. I'm also replaying Morrowind now...although at this very moment the playthrough is on hold. Daggerfall is probably my second favourite TES title just a bit before Skyrim. But, nah, that's clearly nostalgia speaking, amiright?

Now I'm regretting using "clearly". I played through all of Morrowind and its expansions but the game wasn't fun until I completely broke it with the console and using the Elder Scrolls construction kit. The game is not forgiving at first. 3 out of 4 swings swings of your sword missing is not fun especially if you wanted to use range weapons. A friend of mine told me about his playthrough of Daggerfall and I like how it had skills like climbing. I suppose I should try to play these before I judge (in my defense, most people site Morrowind as best evur). Bethesda does have them for free on their website if I'm not mistaken

Realism. Immersion. I have words but they are not suited for here. Here is what I'll say, though - even though I rather liked Skyrim overall, probably one of the bigger...nay, it's actually the biggest problem I had with it - the thing that nagged me all throughout the game enough to rise to my personal #1 spot in annoyingness is the following - clothing glued to NPCs. That's it. You kill some people (I think guards suffered from it) and you can only take a helm or something from them, not all their clothes. Every time I saw that I was like "What? O-o-oh...why? O-o-oh...". I may not even want to take their clothes but when I loot a corpse and find nothing it just bugs me - there clearly isn't nothing on that corpse.

Realistic and immersive probably weren't the best words for me to use (fucking buzz words). More animated is closer to what I mean than realism and funner is closer to what I meant than immersive.

I also hate it when Bethesda cock teases me. Don't show me things unless I can take them!

 

[endtherapture]

Oblivion's...Erm...Yeah, well you get the point.

Oblivion definitely had the best quest design in all of the TES games. Those Dark Brotherhood and Thief's Guild quests are amazing.

I agree, those quest lines were indeed quite good, however I'm not sure I'd say Oblivion had the best quest design of the series...I haven't really played all that much of Morrowind or Skyrim to be able judge though, really.

I think If I had to choose one, I'd pick Skyrim for that honor. Whilst those 2 quest lines were really fun, the overall experience with all the quests in Oblivion leave me...Wanting. Most of them are pretty underwhelming, from what I recall.

Also, I just remembered the Shivering Isles DLC for Oblivion...That was actually really good, some of the best gameplay to be had in the game, I'd argue.

Oblivion had really great quests that stuck out to me. There's the one when you're being hunted in a game in the dungeon on the Island, there's the one where you have to kill everyone in a house without the other people finding out, the giant heist of The Elder Scroll, and the murder mystery with a heavy ring at the bottom of a well.

Very inventive and unusual quests.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Oblivion had really great quests that stuck out to me. There's the one when you're being hunted in a game in the dungeon on the Island, there's the one where you have to kill everyone in a house without the other people finding out, the giant heist of The Elder Scroll, and the murder mystery with a heavy ring at the bottom of a well.

Very inventive and unusual quests.

While I personally agree Oblivion's questlines were more.... interesting, the narrative of all the guilds, especially the TG and DB, was so structurally flawed from start to finish that the Skyrim's TG plot looks good by comparison.

Oblivion had interesting, but ultimately stupid quests that largely made no sense, while Skyrim's quests were far more... believable? but less wacky because of it.

 

[endtherapture]

Oblivion had really great quests that stuck out to me. There's the one when you're being hunted in a game in the dungeon on the Island, there's the one where you have to kill everyone in a house without the other people finding out, the giant heist of The Elder Scroll, and the murder mystery with a heavy ring at the bottom of a well.

Very inventive and unusual quests.

While I personally agree Oblivion's questlines were more.... interesting, the narrative of all the guilds, especially the TG and DB, was so structurally flawed from start to finish that the Skyrim's TG plot looks good by comparison.

Oblivion had interesting, but ultimately stupid quests that largely made no sense, while Skyrim's quests were far more... believable? but less wacky because of it.

Really? I definitely preferred the sense of progression in Oblivion. In Skyrim I did the Mage's guild quest in one sitting. It was very short, and although I wanted more, it was simply unsatisfying, I didn't get any loot, and I felt the game was just teasing me.

For the corresponding questline in Oblivion I had to travel around the entire province, working for loads of different people and it took ages to do! There were more quests and the quests were a lot more interesting...and that was just a preliminary bit to the MAIN MAIN Mage's Guild quest, which began when I got to the Arcane University after a very long questline.