So I just figured out I'm a Zionist. (Mass Effect 2)

[Casual Shinji]

Well, I don't think devs should shy away from depicting challenging issues in their games. I do agree with you that the alienage concept in DA:O came off as under-developed - I far preferred the way medieval racism was depicted in witcher games or the classist society DA:O depicts in Orzammar. The quarians, however, I would be more inclined to classify with Orzammar than the alienages, because their situation is fully developed and makes complete sense in terms of the game world. Therefore, it comes off (to me at least) as something that belongs in the game world as opposed to something that was awkwardly inserted into it. I will agree with you that more alien aliens would be nice, though

My underlying problem with this is that it makes these fantastical beings less fantastic and unique.

There's a great manga called Berserk, which has plenty of challenging issues like nobility vs. commoners, inquisitions, the value of life, self-loathing, revenge, redemption. But the difference is that most of these contemporary issues happen within the society of man. When demons and other fantastical and magical beings or worlds enter the scene, all of that human squabble goes right out the window, and all that is left is wonderment and the unkown. That's just something I'm really missing in Bioware's universes.

I like my aliens alien and my elves mystical, I don't need them discussing politics and race equality.

 

[MoeTheMonk]

The Jewish "people" aren't a people at all and Israel is a sham. The U.S. stuck its nose in where it didn't belong, carved up the Middle East and told everyone to get along with the new arrangement, despite America have no right in the world to do so. What are they doing now? Slaughtering civilians and causing more wars on top of the crap they started when they decided to rearrange the world map to better suit themselves.

Something like that.​

[sup]I'm not anti-Jewish. I'm anti U.S. foreign policy.[/sup]

It's always America's fault somehow. Uh no, Europe was carving up the Middle-East long before America arrived on the scene, and the formation of a Jewish state was a joint worldwide effort here, not one country issuing decrees and the rest bowing in submission to the new emperor.

Also, the Jewish "people" aren't a people? Since when? Considering alot of them kept their names, religion, and traditions for thousands of years in spite of their exile, I'd say they qualify. The Jews deserved their homeland back more than any other people, considering all the crap they've had to go through. Israel has been the victim in almost all its conflicts over there, and it had my support 100%

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Then I totally realized the Quarians were in the same position as Jewish people before they got Israel back. They both were kicked out of their home generations ago, they both spent a great deal of time moving from place to place, they both face persecution from intolerant people, they both need a special environmental suit to prevent contamin-whoops, never mind, I'll stop there.

Yup. This is why I love the Quarians so much. ^^

My paragon Shep thinks that peaceful relations with the Geth are the better option, but that the Geth owe the Quarians their homeworld back.

By renegade Shep thinks that war with the Geth is the only option, and sold Legion to Cerberus.

Either way, my Sheps always support the Quarians. Because the Quarians are the most tragic people in the Galaxy.

And for those who are "but the quarians did it to themselves" - no, you are wrong. The quarians 300 years ago did it to themselves. You know what we were doing 300 years ago? Slavery. Mass genocide. That's all Americans and Europeans (most of the Escapist population) - we were doing the SAME THING OR WORSE than the Quarians 300 years ago.

Do you want to be blamed for what people 300 years ago did? No? Then shut the hell up.

 

[pspman45]

I believe that you may have mis-interpreted my opinion, which is partly my fault, and I apologize for that

I am not saying that one side has a moral high ground, I am saying that the viewpoint of the Palestinians is often overlooked. Nor am I saying that Israel has no right to exist. I am saying that both sides are in the wrong, and that the best way to deal with the problem is to try and co-exist, rather than have wars over the land. Both sides have wronged the other, and both sides feel that the only way to succeed is the total annihilation of the other, rather than putting their differences aside to make the world a better place, to accept and put aside each other's differences.

The Israelis felt that the Palestinians had taken their land, although it was promised to the both of them. Their reaction was to forcefully remove them from their own houses. The Palestinians had the right to be pissed off, but opted to attack Israel. Now the Israelis had the right to be pissed off, then attacked Egypt and destroyed their Air Force.
A stalemate has been reached, and the previous actions of both sides has sparked pure hatred among the two factions, making it unable (or at least very difficult) to forgive each other.

When this subject is brought up, peoples sympathies side with the Israelis, even though they have no knowledge of the other side. In order to have an unbiased opinion, the speaker must understand the viewpoints of both sides, rather than falling for the "I'm the victim" ploy that the Israelis and the former Palestinians are conveying

They are both indifferent to the misfortunes and sufferings of each other, and the whole world would benefit if they were willing to put is aside and try to share the territory, rather than waste lives fighting over it

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Jewish people reach an agreement with Britain about getting a small part of Palestine, resulting in the Palestines aggressively attacking the Jewish people, which, after a painful fight, resulted in the Jewish people claiming a bigger part of Palestine, then making it Israel?
I could be wrong, maybe the Israeli school system feeds me lies to keep me own Israel's side, but that's what I learned.
The Israelis did not come with pitchforks and banish the Palestines, right?[/quote]
Actually, I am pretty sure that the British promised both sides the land, but when the war was over, they had no Idea what to do, and gave it to the Jewish, so they could have some land of their own.
And I hope that you know that a country's educational system is ALWAYS biased towards themselves.
for example, my high school history class taught us that the US started the Spanish-American war because Spain was mistreating its colonies. They left out the part where we did the same thing to the colonies once we had control over them, further making the US look like dicks

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well, I don't think devs should shy away from depicting challenging issues in their games. I do agree with you that the alienage concept in DA:O came off as under-developed - I far preferred the way medieval racism was depicted in witcher games or the classist society DA:O depicts in Orzammar. The quarians, however, I would be more inclined to classify with Orzammar than the alienages, because their situation is fully developed and makes complete sense in terms of the game world. Therefore, it comes off (to me at least) as something that belongs in the game world as opposed to something that was awkwardly inserted into it. I will agree with you that more alien aliens would be nice, though

My underlying problem with this is that it makes these fantastical beings less fantastic and unique.

There's a great manga called Berserk, which has plenty of challenging issues like nobility vs. commoners, inquisitions, the value of life, self-loathing, revenge, redemption. But the difference is that most of these contemporary issues happen within the society of man. When demons and other fantastical and magical beings or worlds enter the scene, all of that human squabble goes right out the window, and all that is left is wonderment and the unkown. That's just something I'm really missing in Bioware's universes.

I like my aliens alien and my elves mystical, I don't need them discussing politics and race equality.

Well, I think it's more or less okay both ways. You can go the Tolkien route, or you can go the China Meiville route. Both having non-human people being completely alien or having them sharing many traits in common with humans are valid artistic choices, IMO.

 

[Arif_Sohaib]

I think that the Quarians deserved to lose their home world. They attacked a group of Robots who were gaining sentience, because they were afraid. How did they know that the Geth would attack them? how did they know that the two races could not co-exist? They did not. I believe that the Quarians attacked them to secure their dominance over the Geth, not to protect themselves. They were afraid that their working class would rise up, knowing that they were being mistreated.
The Geth deserve the Perseus Veil, they earned it. If the Quarians didn't want to lose their home, then they should not have fired the first shot.

About the politics concerning the REAL world, The Israelis treated the Palestinians like shit. the make no effort to Co-exist, and made themselves out as the dominant people. Now that the odds are no longer in their favor, people feel the need to help them, even though they brought it upon themselves.

The Quarians probably thought that the Geth would kill them all, and initiated a pre-emptive strike. If they wanted to dominate the Geth, why would they try to kill them all? You can?t dominate someone who?s dead (except in certain FPS?s).

As for Israelis treating the Palestinians like ?shit,? this statement is breathtakingly devoid of context. Jewish people were given what is their homeland according to the Bible by the British. Palestinians were removed. This was not some evil plot to harm Palestinians, but a well-meaning effort to protect the Jewish people from genocide. It certainly did displace some people, and that is very unfortunate.
Obviously the Palestinian people have attempted to re-claim their homeland, and Israel has defended itself utterly. Many of the complaints against Israel?s conduct appear to be not about how it defends itself, but that it defends itself at all. If rockets were raining down where you live, what would you do? And remember, someone who hasn?t had rockets exploding around him or her cannot possibly understand what that truly means.

When Hitler rained V2 rockets upon London, the people wanted the government to do something about it. Would you say differently if rockets were being rained upon where you live? No one can answer that honestly unless they have experienced rockets exploding in their city. So, it is important consider that most people cannot understand what the people of Israel go through. Should the government of Great Britain have done nothing against the German V2 rockets which bombarded them? If that answer is no, then how is that different from Israel doing nothing to defend itself? The difference is whether or not one recognises Israel as a legitimate nation-state. If one does not recognise Israel as a legitimate nation-state, the question is, should Israel be wiped off the map? If one believes Israelis should simply leave if it should be, one is most likely intentionally ignorant of the reality that the Jewish people will not simply leave and become a Diaspora once again. In other words, if one does not recognise the legitimacy of the state of Israel, does one not believe that they are occupiers, and that violence against them is justified? And by that logic, does any retaliation by those occupiers not make those occupiers even more immoral? In order to end Israel, the genocide of the Israeli people would be required.

When several nations attempted to invade Israel, they were defeated in six days. Was Israel not justified in defending itself? In other words, would it have been best for Israel to have lost that war? That would have resulted in the genocide of the Israeli people. Whether or not the six nations ganging up on Israel would have simply politely asked every citizen of Israel to leave is debatable, but I think it would have resulted in genocide. You say that Israel treats the Palestinians, who attempt to wipe Israel off the map, like ?shit.? However, the people of Israel were treated the same before they had a powerful home of their own. The people who attack Israel are utterly determined to destroy it, and the people of Israel are utterly determined to defend their nation. It is certainly true that Israel goes quite over the top when it has retaliated randomly against Palestine. However, Israel is simply creating symmetry. To suggest one side has the moral high ground is ridiculous.

Newsflash; Hitler is dead, World War 2 is over and Germany feels very guilty about it. Ever since that happened, there was no chance what so ever of any kind of genocide against the Jewish people especially in post-war, American-controlled West-Germany. There was no reason for Israel to exist and no reason for so many Palestienians to become refugees in their own land and no reason to ghettoisation of parts of East Jerusalem. The rockets are only there due to illegal settlements. Israel is not even serious about the peace process as it refuses to make any concessions and actually tells the Palestenians that they state can't even have a proper army to defend themselves. Is Israel the only country that is allowed to defend itself in the Middle-East? What gurantee does the future-Palestienian state have that Israel won't attack or conduct Mossad operations in their land?

In Mass Effect 2, I actually saw the Quarians as the Palestenians in Mass Effect 2(Tali is the closest to a scarf-wearing woman in any game). However, I thought that Mordin was a Nazi with his predujice against the Krogans. The Krogans themselves had a touch of Afghans. This is the great thing about proper Sci-Fi and Fantasy, you can interpert it however you want.

 

[Sabazios]

Seriously, maybe we should start blaring this out to everyone. Stop caring about your petty land wars, and realise this will not matter when you've been techno-Cthulhu'd. Would like maybe a bit of perspective.

This could be expanded to the real world. Except Cyberthulhu probably doesn't exist.

 

[hermes]

I always thought they were closest to the gypsies... Not necessarily in an historical sense, but on a cultural one (post-exodus).

 

[LaughingAtlas]

On the Quarians, I'd have said forget the fucking place had Tali not informed me that it'd take generations longer for them to adapt out of suits again anywhere else. Once the reapers are gone and galactic civilization still stands, I figure I'll be past caring whether or not the Quarians and Geth (all of them) can get along, if there are enough survivors for it to be an issue.

OP: (the epiphany thing)

Spoiler: Evil for fun (kind of long)

I realized while playing one of the Dead Rising games that Evil Cole Mcgrath was absolutely right.
"In a place with no law, the strong take what they want, the weak are slaves, playthings..."
There being no consequence for killing most fat, stupid survivors once you're max level, I ran about murdering them for giggles and I had already been taking whatever I wanted (then again, it was always stealing food I couldn't legitamtely pay for, shop keepers being dead or gone and everything else was used to kill zombies, maniacs, and... well, survivors.) because no one would even try to stop me. (barring those pawn shop guys, whose men I also butchered and laughed at)

I realized I had been doing this in the newer Fallout games, Saint's Row 2, and every Fable game. (but stangely not in Infamous. No gratification to be had frying helpless citizens, only gangs you're supposed to kill anyway fight back, give or take the occasional brave officer) There was usually resistance of some sort in every game, but as Evil Cole put it
"...No one is stronger than me."
The weird thing is, I usually play as a reasonably good guy, accepting every sidequest no matter how small, refusing rewards when they're not automatically put in my inventory, standing up for the victims of thugs and corrupt rich people, and generally trying to make sure evreyone's having a nice day. Apparently this is limited to
1.Whether or not I'm actually able to go around killing everyone, (Mass effect only lets you shoot around innocent bystanders)
2. Whether or not there's a signifgant penalty for murder frenzy,
3. My boredom threshold.
Yesterday In fallout New Vegas, having done nearly everything that wasn't a main quest and been a regular Wasteland Savior about it, all the money and useful gear I could want, I decided to wipe out the residents of New Vegas to amuse myself. At this point I thought
"Dear god, what am I doing? Killing people when their deaths are more funny than they are impractical, even if they're on my side? Pointlessly evil deeds for a laugh? I've become the Joker!"
[sub](You may have noticed, I like parentheses perhaps a little too much][/sub]

 

[Broken Blade]

If that's true, it's telling that every time I had the chance, I tried to make peace between the Quarians and the Geth. Both sides made mistakes, but that doesn't justify xenocide.

Of course, like all analogies, it doesn't hold up if you push it too far.

Well show me where the geth made a mistake? From what we learn of them, they show more restraint than any other race in the ME universe. They even stopped the war they were clearly winning as soon as they didn't have to defend themselves anymore besides having the numbers to wipe the quarians out or even conquer the universe.

I think the Geth should have approached Citadel space earlier, explaining their situation and their desires, and offering a peace agreement with the Quarians. The Geth basically set on the old Quarian worlds for three centuries and never said "Hey, we're here and we're actually friendly." If they'd done that, then we wouldn't have to worry about convincing the rest of the galaxy that the Geth that attacked in ME1 were a minority. So, that's their mistake.

But the Quarians were completely in the wrong. They created a sapient species, and then attempted to wipe them out. I feel the Geth were justified in retaliating, and the Geth currently have the moral high ground because they stopped when the Quarians were no longer fighting them.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I'm sure this has already been said, but it's not like people can blame me for repeating other's opinions on this site of all places?

Anyway, there's a lot of things that make it impossible for it to be a (good) metaphor for the Israel situation.

Firstly, the very same sentient beings that took over the Quarian homeworld are the same that are living there now, meaning that there is the argument of revenge to consider when thinking about taking back the Quarian homeworld, or if not that, then taking back what's yours from the people that took it from you. This is not at all the case with Israel. It doesn't matter how the Jewish people were enslaved and their land taken from them, because if there ever was a people that did so they weren't there when the Jewish got Israel "back".

The Geth would have had to have lost the planet to another alien race for it to be similar to the Israel situation.

Furthermore, the history of the loss of the planet for the Quarians is way too recent and way too specific in what happened for it to warrant as a proper metaphor. There's not even close to as much information on how the Jews first lost Israel as there is to how the Quarians lost their planet, and even then it would be a massive stretch of the imagination to find any similarity between the Jewish being thrown out of Israel and the Quarians creating sentient beings that they then provoked into throwing them out.

If it's a Israel metaphor, it's fucking shit, because the details are astronomically different.

 

[UberNoodle]

But didn't the quarians start the war?

Yes they did.

And it was all because they didn't want to have to deal with their slaves becoming sentient. Honestly, they could have welcomed this new species with open arms, avoided any conflict, and gained one of the most powerful allies in the galaxy. But no, they were lazy and fearful and ignorant, so they decided to wipe the Geth out.

And they got their asses handed to them on a space age platter.

So now they act like the wounded party, pissing and moaning about losing their home-world to "evil" synthetic life, utterly ignoring the fact that they tried to commit genocide on a species that had never committed a single crime against them.

Honestly, if Mass Effect 3 makes me choose between the Quarians and the Geth, I will not be able to choose the Geth fast enough.

However, how much should the living today be held accountable for the sins of their forefathers, or even the sins of the few? Can an entire nation or race carry the blame for the decisions of its controllers? What guilt should Joe Blo in Kansas bear for the wars of America, or of his genetic ancestors?

"Evil" is a word designed by propaganderists which is quite eagerly swallowed by the masses typically kept fearful in the dark until they'll swallow anything. There are so many parallels in the Quarian/Geth story which show the faults in our own cultures and societies. To choose the Geth and condemn the Quarians is to continue down that slippery slope.

The thing is though, that the Quarians treat the Geth just like their forebears did, either as something to be controlled or as something to be destroyed. They haven't learned from past mistakes, they've simply continued the same flawed reasoning as before.

And here's the kicker. The Geth have for the most part, been a peaceful people, keeping to themselves to avoid conflict and defending themselves only when necessary, the only exception to this being the heretics (who were crazy fanatics that thought a Reaper was their God, and as such not a proper representation of the populace). In addition, Legion has hinted on several occasions that the Geth bears no real resentment towards their creators, and have maintained the Quarian worlds. It would only take some moderate negotiations, and the Quarians could possibly get their home back without a single life lost.

But do you know what the Quarians have been doing for the last 300 years? Building weapons. Testing them on geth platforms. Hacking Geth software and technology (the synthetic equivalent to brainwashing and torture). In short they've been committing some of the most heinous crimes (by any civilization's standards) to ensure that the next time they fight the Geth, they'll win.

Is it any wonder why I prefer the Geth?

They are some very good points. The Quarians appear hell bent on eliminating the Geth, but the Geth are not feeling the same about the Quarians. The Heretics were indeed extremists and under the influence of a Reaper. I hope that the story team for ME3 don't go for any easy resolutions for these topics because as they stand, they deserve proper intellectual treatment. They certainly give food for thought about our world here today.

 

[Nokterne]

Why do the Geth need to occupy the Quarian homeworld? They are robots, just find a planet with some low rust atmosphere and the proper amount of gravity and they should be fine.

 

[Ghengis John]

Did any of you read what was written in the brackets at the end of that? Or did you all just willfully ignore it.

Well yes, but asking us what we thought of the situation without mentioning the middle east was like asking us to discuss "fire" without bringing up the subject of heat. The opening poster himself brought up zionism. "Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't tend to hold up long on the internet.

Yeah I thought that about Tali, I was kind of like *eyebrow raise* at her when she seemed so callous. It makes sense if the Geth were just mindless killing machines ala Terminator but the Quarians basically created a race of slaves. Then they tried to eradicate them when they became sentient. To me that's like...kind of evil. Robots or no.

Exactly. I always found it a little unnerving how many people will proclaim their love for the "cute and innocent" Tali while somehow over looking her advocation of genocide. You have to consider the whole person, right? ...
D'awwwwww....

Off topic, Joker is my favourite ME character it's gutting to me that he's not an LI.

You must be a very nice person to want to pick Joker, I don't think I've ever heard anyone else bring him up. Which is kind of surprising actually because all I ever heard from girls was how much they liked a sense of humor.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

You must be a very nice person to want to pick Joker, I don't think I've ever heard anyone else bring him up. Which is kind of surprising actually because all I ever heard from girls was how much they liked a sense of humor.

Lol why? He's funny, cute and he flies the Normandy like a boss.(/swoon) You would have to be more considerate of him and maybe give up some stuff becuase of his illness but to me personally I have absolutely no idea why you would even look at any other guy there.

madness. *Adjusts SR2 hat*

I like Tali but I have my femshep call her out at every opportunity, just becuase someone is pleasant doesn't mean you should change your principles to accomodate them.

 

[gamerguyal]

Palestine (and Jerusalem in particular) is important to 3 major religions, so it seems like there's always someone fighting over that otherwise pretty uninteresting section of land. Jews because they were supposedly "the chosen people", Christians because the entire life and death of their prophet occurred in about a 50-mile radius in Palestine (including being supposedly put to death in Jerusalem), and Islam because their prophet supposedly ascended to heaven in Jerusalem. Everyone thinks it's "theirs", and they use that claim and their religions to justify killing each other over that piece of land.

 

[Drago-Morph]

. . . but then again, Muslims =/= robots so the analogy never really worked.

You're right, that would be the Japanese.

On topic, it's cool how, when a game developer tries, they can actually add some depth and symbolism to their games. Activision take note.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Although silly and impractical I've always thought the wisdom of solomon would be the best way to go. Threaten to irradiate the place so NO ONE can live there and then whoever backs down first should be the one who gets it because they obviously care about the area the most. That wouldnt work with Geth though because they are robots. :|

As for Tali I kind of sighed at the point when she was on about not being able to settle on another world. If at least some of them do it now maybe their future generations can have a planet and build up a half decent immune system. Way to be selfish and short sighted.

 

[Shock and Awe]

Actually, you can kind of apply that to both the Palestinians and the Jews. Think about it, the Jews(Geth) in the 40s were a group that lived under the more dominant group's(Quarians) heel. They started getting bigger and more advanced. This made the dominant group nervous. In Israel it was when they got their own little state, with the geth it was when they gained sentience. The dominant group tried to strike first, than got curb stomped.

If you put the time scale back 2000 years it also fits, but I think the modern one fits a little better myself.