So I started watching Star Trek Discovery ... Why do people not like this show?

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Addendum_Forthcoming

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So I just finished watching episode 6 and I just wanted to ask why there is so much negativity around this reimagining about the series? It has complexity, heart, interesting character dynamics, shot competently, pretty good effects, I really like Stamets. Stamets is like a real scientist. I've worked with people like this personally. A bit of ego, and inexhaustible energy for all the things that excite them. The whole reason why they spend their lives dedicated to that one thing despite a perpetually crappy pay cheque.

Now the first two episodes had some pacing and weird plot issues, but what exactly is wrong with that?

It's obviously trying to plumb some deeper character drama than most Star Trek series, thus making it seem more interpersonal focussed. But surely that's a good thing on its own, right?

Not only that but by having it focus on the character of Michael Burnham it helps sell the idea of a person caught between the class layers between a somewhat disturbed captain, a neurodivergent Tilly and Stamets, a sharp-tongued Saru, the (likeably) stoic soldier in the form of Lieutenant Tyler... which helps sell the idea of what it means to serve and be in service to something greater in terms of the moral complexities of war and belonging to an interstellar society that in its own sense of ruthless performance and 'esteem of the uniform' would create a streak of 'the weird' in people. Something that wasn't really captured in other takes of the property.

In a lot of Star Trek series it sells the meritocracy of Starfleet, but always paints an escapism of a central, commanding authority by which the viewer is meant to project a latent egotistical connection to that has a uniquely liberal bent that, in truth of belonging to such a massive interstellar institution, wouldn't actually exist. An escapism that is directly contradictory to that meritocracy to begin with. Service begets merit--not whim.

And it's kind of refreshing for Star Trek to actually examine that idea of an element of being shackled by the obvious bureaucracy that would exist ... and also quietly admonish the egotistical escapism of viewers of the past projecting onto former captains of past series, painted as if larger than life when in truth they would be no less shackled by the systems that made them in the first place. The systems that demand decorum and regimentation of service that all of us face regardless of our personal successes that is the reality of our lives.

Lorca's mental illness, for instance, even going so far as to allow the capture of the one person that by design sought to ground him and the show painting that as if a manifestation of his broken mind is a pretty searing indictment on how prior series have treated the role of once central figures.

And sure ... I can get why people might be pissed off with such commentary, but it's pretty good commentary IMO about a key weirdness of Star Trek that it has always seemed to pander to that egotistical escapism the viewer secretly desires. That captain's chair as if an infantile idea of what it actually means to be in command and the laundry list of responsibilities that come with it that are, in truth, far more restrictive than one would like to actually imagine they are.

Prior antagonists that sought to challenge such characters in the past have been painted as villainous or petty-minded. And no, this is a person that genuinely cares about him and he betrays her and it has real consequences. His paranoia for self-preservation goes so far as to hurt the people that truly want him to get better.

I don't get the hate, personally. I feel like the set up and premise are pretty damn tight.

If the key reason why people don't like it is purely because it gets progressively worse, that I can understand--But there seemed to be a kneejerk negativity about the series from day 1.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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So far it hasn't match the quality of the older series.

I have not heard whether its any better or worse then Voyager and Enterprise.

But clearly Disocvery would not match TOS (in its best episodes), TNG, and DS9.
 

Jute88

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Honestly most of the criticism was superficial:
the visual style (okay to me, too futuristic for some),
the new look of the klingons (personally didn't care, I applaud them for atleast trying something new with the makeup),
the mood of show (I agree that the show took itself a bit too seriously.
But

It just didn't like Star Trek to me. I haven't even finished the first season, so I can't tell if it even ends well or not.
There are some okay moments here and there, but it just felt boring to me. Characters didn't interest me (though some of them were promising), the story was boring, Michael was annoying, the Tardigrade was ripped from a game or something.

And that is not to say that the previous Star Treks were some masterpieces *cough* Voyager, Enterprise, The Next Generation*cough*.
 

EvilRoy

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The aesthetic bothered me a lot, but I wouldn't say its a terrible show. I preferred the star trek visuals that felt like someone took a naval vessel, eased off the sharp corners and installed some better chairs, and then called it done. Something about the appearance gave me a feel of really being out there in uncharted land, where all you have is the boat and a map and neither was designed for comfort.

The smoother ipod/techno-ergo look of the new show/movies makes me think of my office. Hell, the lunch area in one episode looks basically like the area I choose not to eat in daily. Technically comfortable, not filled with excitement and dreadful anticipation. Probably a good idea for my office planner, but when I watch a show about exploration and shit getting real I don't want to feel vaguely jealous of the helmsman's chair.

As far as the story goes, its ok. They bring in modern social/societal commentary, just like the old ones did about the times they were made in. Commentary on the issues of today doesn't really mesh well with the concept of an ideal society that the longest running series was based on, so we have to trash that aspect, and I would guess that doesn't sit well with a lot of long standing fans. I don't put much stock in the idea that adding bureaucracy and exploration of politics is a turnoff for people, given that DS9 was mostly a story about the unpleasant reality of politics and bureaucracy during a tenuous truce and its generally considered one of the best series.
 

madwarper

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My two complaints about the show are a) advanced tech vs timeline, and b) the "twist".

If the Spore drive is a thing that exists, why is it never brought up again? Especially when, in TNG, they determine that traveling via Warp Field does damage to certain parts of the universe. This would be easily fixed if the show took place after all others in the timeline. So, the reason for developing the drive is to have a non-damaging alternative to warp.

The "twist"... Was just unnecessary. You want to do a conflict between the militaristic vs. exploration sides of the Federation, then do that. You don't need to slap a goatee on everyone.

Other than that, it was an okay show. Just not worth the price of a streaming subscription.
 

the December King

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Addendum_Forthcoming said:
And it's kind of refreshing for Star Trek to actually examine that idea of an element of being shackled by the obvious bureaucracy that would exist ... and also quietly admonish the egotistical escapism of viewers of the past projecting onto former captains of past series, painted as if larger than life when in truth they would be no less shackled by the systems that made them in the first place. The systems that demand decorum and regimentation of service that all of us face regardless of our personal successes that is the reality of our lives.
I haven't seen it myself, and I doubt that this particular issue would manifest early on in a definable pattern (I'm assuming that this aspect is impressed upon the viewer after watching for a while?), but having said that, this aspect would actually work to turn off a LOT of viewers, as often the very act of viewing is to escape from specific aspects of reality -and actual bureaucracy (military or otherwise) and it's crushing and faceless presence is a biiig one to run from... or I would have thought.

Personally, I've never been a big Star Trek fan - watched what shows I did watch mainly because nothing else was on (especially true for TNG). Naturally, I have no vitriol for it, just general disinterest.
 

Exley97_v1legacy

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I thought Discovery had arguably the best first season of any Trek series. TNG didn't really hit its stride until S3, DS9 was consistently good but not yet great in S1, and while TOS S1 had many classic episodes, the balance across 29 episodes ain't great.

That said, the biggest drawback for me was the Klingon-Federation "war" that's revealed toward the end of S1. I generally think Trek creators and fans alike are too obsessive about canon and every little detail of its collective history, but that said, this was one leap that was too big for me. There's nothing in any previous Trek series or movie that even suggests there was a full-scale Klingon Federation war at that point in Trek history, and certainly not a conflict that had the Federation on the verge of extinction. I just think they went way too far with that one. Getting creative with Trek's history is one thing, but retconning an entire war out of thin air is another.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Gene Roddenberry would definitely not approve. One of the things that he insisted on was the exact opposite - no drama on the bridge. Everyone had to act like a professional. Discovering solutions to complex problems was the focus, not interpersonal drama.

That being said, I don't mind it. I loved the first season. Especially the big twist near the end. Holy fun! It's still not as good as earlier shows, but there's potential there. Lots of it.
 

Agema

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Addendum_Forthcoming said:
So I just finished watching episode 6 and I just wanted to ask why there is so much negativity around this reimagining about the series?
I thought it was good.

Except perhaps for the "alternate dimension" thing. I generally hate alternate dimension and time travel plots (or the Holodeck from TNG) because they are all too easily vehicles for lazy scriptwriters who have run out of ideas. It's different for things like Doctor Who, where time travel is rarely anything to do with the plot, and just an excuse to let the lead character turn up an anywhere and anywhen. Nevertheless, I'd grudgingly say Discovery handled it about as little cack-handedly as it could have been done.

Exley97 said:
That said, the biggest drawback for me was the Klingon-Federation "war" that's revealed toward the end of S1. I generally think Trek creators and fans alike are too obsessive about canon and every little detail of its collective history, but that said, this was one leap that was too big for me. There's nothing in any previous Trek series or movie that even suggests there was a full-scale Klingon Federation war at that point in Trek history, and certainly not a conflict that had the Federation on the verge of extinction. I just think they went way too far with that one. Getting creative with Trek's history is one thing, but retconning an entire war out of thin air is another.
I was pretty sure from the original series that there was a major Federation-Klingon war.
 

Exley97_v1legacy

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Agema said:
Exley97 said:
That said, the biggest drawback for me was the Klingon-Federation "war" that's revealed toward the end of S1. I generally think Trek creators and fans alike are too obsessive about canon and every little detail of its collective history, but that said, this was one leap that was too big for me. There's nothing in any previous Trek series or movie that even suggests there was a full-scale Klingon Federation war at that point in Trek history, and certainly not a conflict that had the Federation on the verge of extinction. I just think they went way too far with that one. Getting creative with Trek's history is one thing, but retconning an entire war out of thin air is another.
I was pretty sure from the original series that there was a major Federation-Klingon war.
There were certainly skirmishes in TOS, such as "Errand of Mercy" or "The Trouble with Tribbles." But there's nothing in the original series or the movies that suggests the Federation-Klingon conflict erupted in a full-scale war that nearly wiped out the Federation *before* Discovery aired. At least, nothing that I recall. I could be wrong.
 

Agema

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Exley97 said:
There were certainly skirmishes in TOS, such as "Errand of Mercy" or "The Trouble with Tribbles." But there's nothing in the original series or the movies that suggests the Federation-Klingon conflict erupted in a full-scale war that nearly wiped out the Federation *before* Discovery aired. At least, nothing that I recall. I could be wrong.
I might be wrong about it being Original Series - perhaps it's Next Gen, but I'm sure it's mentioned that the Federation and the Klingons were historically involved a very long-lasting war. Conflict in the ToS is more a persistent state of minor conflict and raiding (such as the medieval English-Scottish border) than a full-scale military dust-up, and I'd agree that's the natural assumption. Nevertheless, nor is the existence of a massive conflict precluded, thus I'm not sure I'd call it a retcon.

Of course, it might also be explainable with hindsight. Perhaps the Federation thought it faced annihilation at the time of the war itself, perhaps in part because of shock value due to the string of defeats, that it was militarily inexperienced or underprepared. With toughening up and historical perspective, however, even by Kirk's time the perception was more that it wasn't as bad as it had seemed at the time - it was always going to hold the Klingons when the space factories cranked out enough new ships.
 

Sonmi

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It felt it wasn't really "Star Trek-y".

That being said, it's an excellent series on its own.
 

Satinavian

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Exley97 said:
There were certainly skirmishes in TOS, such as "Errand of Mercy" or "The Trouble with Tribbles." But there's nothing in the original series or the movies that suggests the Federation-Klingon conflict erupted in a full-scale war that nearly wiped out the Federation *before* Discovery aired. At least, nothing that I recall. I could be wrong.
There are a couple of referrences to hostilities and even battles before the TOS timescale, but is all is pretty vague concerning extent.

Making it a full blown war with Discovery is just a way of filling in blanks.
 

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Samtemdo8 said:
So far it hasn't match the quality of the older series.

I have not heard whether its any better or worse then Voyager and Enterprise.

But clearly Disocvery would not match TOS (in its best episodes), TNG, and DS9.
Never watched Enterprise. But my order is DS9>>>>>>>>>>>>Voyager>>TOS>TNG. But then I'm a B5 heathen. See below.

Sonmi said:
It felt it wasn't really "Star Trek-y".

That being said, it's an excellent series on its own.
Star Trek was an anthology series, that just happened to have the same characters. If you have a Chief O'Brien would has PTSD from a forced jail sentence he had to endure (one of DS9's best episode), you had to make sure that he didn't have it next episode. AND THAT"S NOT HOW THAT EPISODE ENDED. It stipulated that this PTSD would carry on for the rest of his life, but it never came up again in the series. Pale Moonlight is another example. The guilt and internal conflict was just dropped because... we have different stories to tell. Not what would make sense to a character.

Star Trek was a bunch of action figures running around the set. They rarely changed and the only situation that was important was the one in front of them. Doctor Who is very similar that way. They started exploring consequences in DS9 and Voyager but it was intermittent. DS9 had a seven episode arc, Voyager Doc had growth and then developed a protocol to teach Seven of Nine. But many other characters did not.

Discovery is a different beast, they spent a large swathe of episodes exploring different dimensions. And it had consequences, that's hopefully going to show up in season 2. Although I don't hold out hope because the Enterprise is coming. Because we cant have Star Trek without the Enterprise showing up. It's like having a Star Wars movie without a Death Star, or Star Destroyers. They're there not because of plot, but because that's what fans expect.

My suggestion, don't ever compare this new Star Trek to the old. They are just not the same. If you do, you get into Kirk/ Picard fights that are useless because they AREN'T the same character for a reason.
 

Exley97_v1legacy

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Satinavian said:
Exley97 said:
There were certainly skirmishes in TOS, such as "Errand of Mercy" or "The Trouble with Tribbles." But there's nothing in the original series or the movies that suggests the Federation-Klingon conflict erupted in a full-scale war that nearly wiped out the Federation *before* Discovery aired. At least, nothing that I recall. I could be wrong.
There are a couple of referrences to hostilities and even battles before the TOS timescale, but is all is pretty vague concerning extent.

Making it a full blown war with Discovery is just a way of filling in blanks.
That's a pretty big leap. I feel like if there had been a full-scale war that had the Federation and the human race on the edge of extinction, it would have constituted more than a few vague references of hostilities with the Klingons prior to Discovery.
 

Trunkage

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Exley97 said:
Satinavian said:
Exley97 said:
There were certainly skirmishes in TOS, such as "Errand of Mercy" or "The Trouble with Tribbles." But there's nothing in the original series or the movies that suggests the Federation-Klingon conflict erupted in a full-scale war that nearly wiped out the Federation *before* Discovery aired. At least, nothing that I recall. I could be wrong.
There are a couple of referrences to hostilities and even battles before the TOS timescale, but is all is pretty vague concerning extent.

Making it a full blown war with Discovery is just a way of filling in blanks.
That's a pretty big leap. I feel like if there had been a full-scale war that had the Federation and the human race on the edge of extinction, it would have constituted more than a few vague references of hostilities with the Klingons prior to Discovery.
The Klingons also looked very different. Three different iterations. It's a weak link, but Star Trek hasn't care too much continiruity anyway.

I do remember playing Commodore 64 game (I think. Maybe some Amiga computer.) where you were a lone starship (pretty sure the Enterpirse) fighting against hordes of Klingon ships. The galaxy was set up into quadrants and you had to track them down. There were Romulans as well that kicked my ass. A big war between the Federation and the Klingons was cannon for me before Discovery.

Edit: http://www.gamebase64.com/game.php?h=0&id=7341

Note that you still had 33! Klingon ships to kill. I don't think kill that many in the entire TOS run
 

Hawki

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Shame Zontar isn't still around, he'd have been able to explain it easily.

But that aside:

Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Now the first two episodes had some pacing and weird plot issues, but what exactly is wrong with that?
...you kinda just described it?

Anyway, I'd say Discovery is...okay. When I reviewed it, I pointed out that its quality is like a bell curve. You start off pretty bad, but it gets better over time, peaking in the Mirror Universe. After that, the quality declines a bit, though still ends better than it started.

It's obviously trying to plumb some deeper character drama than most Star Trek series, thus making it seem more interpersonal focussed. But surely that's a good thing on its own, right?
Depends on who you ask. A lot of the backlash is that it's different, and, well, more on that later.

Samtemdo8 said:
So far it hasn't match the quality of the older series.

I have not heard whether its any better or worse then Voyager and Enterprise.

But clearly Disocvery would not match TOS (in its best episodes), TNG, and DS9.
If I had to rank what I've seen of Star Trek, it would go TNG>TOS>Discovery>Enterprise.

That said, not the biggest Star Trek fan either way.

Jute88 said:
the visual style (okay to me, too futuristic for some),
Yeah...I'm okay with it, but I can get why people would be put off.

But seriously, why is it so dark? Even the bridge of the NX-01 was better lit than this.

the new look of the klingons (personally didn't care, I applaud them for atleast trying something new with the makeup),[/quote]

I'm mixed on the klingons.

On one hand, Star Trek alien makeup has been...well, pretty crap prior to this (far as I've seen, there's been exceptions). So on the one hand, I like that these klingons look and sound alien. On the other, they really don't match the 'standard' klingons we've previously seen.

the mood of show (I agree that the show took itself a bit too seriously.
But

It just didn't like Star Trek to me. I haven't even finished the first season, so I can't tell if it even ends well or not.
I won't spoil the ending, but I do sympathise with this. Again, not a big Star Trek fan, but I've said it before and I'll say it again - this is the most "un-Star Trek" Star Trek show I've seen. That comes down to its characters, to its plot, to its aesthetic, to its tone, to, well, everything. Whether that's good or bad is down to the individual, but if someone says that Discovery puts them off for this, then I do get that.

There are some okay moments here and there, but it just felt boring to me. Characters didn't interest me (though some of them were promising), the story was boring, Michael was annoying, the Tardigrade was ripped from a game or something.
Yeah.

I know Michael is the protagonist, but to me, she's easily the least engaging member of the main cast.

Lorca FTW!

madwarper said:
If the Spore drive is a thing that exists, why is it never brought up again? Especially when, in TNG, they determine that traveling via Warp Field does damage to certain parts of the universe. This would be easily fixed if the show took place after all others in the timeline. So, the reason for developing the drive is to have a non-damaging alternative to warp.
The spore drive is established to do damage as well. Like, universe-threatening damage.

Other than that, it was an okay show. Just not worth the price of a streaming subscription.
Suck it, I got it on Netflix. :p

Exley97 said:
I thought Discovery had arguably the best first season of any Trek series.
From what I've seen...yeah, that's probably true.

Granted, part of the bar is season 1 of TNG (bleh) and season 1 of Enterprise (bleh!) and season 1 of TOS (can't remember), so, go figure.

trunkage said:
But then I'm a B5 heathen.
Another B5 fan?

Squee!
 

Agema

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trunkage said:
Star Trek was an anthology series, that just happened to have the same characters. If you have a Chief O'Brien would has PTSD from a forced jail sentence he had to endure (one of DS9's best episode), you had to make sure that he didn't have it next episode. AND THAT"S NOT HOW THAT EPISODE ENDED. It stipulated that this PTSD would carry on for the rest of his life, but it never came up again in the series. Pale Moonlight is another example. The guilt and internal conflict was just dropped because... we have different stories to tell. Not what would make sense to a character.

Star Trek was a bunch of action figures running around the set. They rarely changed and the only situation that was important was the one in front of them. Doctor Who is very similar that way. They started exploring consequences in DS9 and Voyager but it was intermittent. DS9 had a seven episode arc, Voyager Doc had growth and then developed a protocol to teach Seven of Nine. But many other characters did not.
I'd agree with this.

Early series (and not just Star Trek) were very much a collection of standalone episodes with minimal continuity. TSG and DS9 had, for me, a very uneasy sense of continuity where things with long-term implications were brought in, and then just dropped or picked up as convenient. Babylon 5 handled it a lot better - although a sort of mix of standalone episodes and overarching narrative advancement episodes, there was a much stronger grasp that once something major had happened to a character, they couldn't just move on next week as if nothing had happened.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

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madwarper said:
My two complaints about the show are a) advanced tech vs timeline, and b) the "twist".

If the Spore drive is a thing that exists, why is it never brought up again? Especially when, in TNG, they determine that traveling via Warp Field does damage to certain parts of the universe. This would be easily fixed if the show took place after all others in the timeline. So, the reason for developing the drive is to have a non-damaging alternative to warp.

The "twist"... Was just unnecessary. You want to do a conflict between the militaristic vs. exploration sides of the Federation, then do that. You don't need to slap a goatee on everyone.

Other than that, it was an okay show. Just not worth the price of a streaming subscription.
The Spore Drive was never used again due to it being considered a direct violation of the prime directive, as well as being considered extremely cruel, and yes, damaging to the universe as well. In order for them to navigate the spore drive, they were causing extreme harm to another life form that would result in death. When they had a member of star fleet sacrifice themselves with an unauthorized experimental injection in order to spare the other lifeforms life so they could use the spore drive again, it almost killed them as well. In addition to the mycelium network becoming infected and having to be "regrown" due to their experiments and use contaminating it, they were just doing too much damage to have it as a viable alternative to anything at that point.

Exley97 said:
I thought Discovery had arguably the best first season of any Trek series. TNG didn't really hit its stride until S3, DS9 was consistently good but not yet great in S1, and while TOS S1 had many classic episodes, the balance across 29 episodes ain't great.

That said, the biggest drawback for me was the Klingon-Federation "war" that's revealed toward the end of S1. I generally think Trek creators and fans alike are too obsessive about canon and every little detail of its collective history, but that said, this was one leap that was too big for me. There's nothing in any previous Trek series or movie that even suggests there was a full-scale Klingon Federation war at that point in Trek history, and certainly not a conflict that had the Federation on the verge of extinction. I just think they went way too far with that one. Getting creative with Trek's history is one thing, but retconning an entire war out of thin air is another.
I also think it was the best first season out of any Star Trek series, my only real irritation was " too many twists" like they went overboard with it really, that and WTH would they ever release ANYONE from the mirror universe into their universe instead of finding a way to force them back? What is stopping them from finding a way to bring more people from the mirror universe back or causing great harm in that universe. Seems like a ridiculously bad idea.


AS for the Klingon War, while the dates may be a bit off, both TOS and TNG refer to the Klingon War, this is only slightly before one of the dates mentioned, but according to Discovery creators, the discrepancies between Discovery and the original show will be explained later. Maybe there is a difference in time due to them actually changing the past/ future time line via time travel later? Anything is possible from what they have shown thus far.

OP: I think Discovery is actually a good deal better than most previous Star Trek episodes thus far, and am hoping they expand on that. I guess time will tell. Some of the time though it felt like they were " trying too hard" but that doesn't necessarily mean that is a bad thing. It is good they were filled with surprises overall.
 

Jute88

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Lil devils x said:
]
The Spore Drive was never used again due to it being considered a direct violation of the prime directive, as well as being considered extremely cruel, and yes, damaging to the universe as well. In order for them to navigate the spore drive, they were causing extreme harm to another life form that would result in death. When they had a member of star fleet sacrifice themselves with an unauthorized experimental injection in order to spare the other lifeforms life so they could use the spore drive again, it almost killed them as well. In addition to the mycelium network becoming infected and having to be "regrown" due to their experiments and use contaminating it, they were just doing too much damage to have it as a viable alternative to anything at that point.
Actually, no, they ripped the tardigrade from an indie-game Tardigrades. And fearing copyright infringement they offered to get rid off the tardigrade from the show. And the tardigrade wasn't the only thing they (possibly) ripped off from the game.

Hawki said:
Samtemdo8 said:
So far it hasn't match the quality of the older series.

I have not heard whether its any better or worse then Voyager and Enterprise.

But clearly Disocvery would not match TOS (in its best episodes), TNG, and DS9.
If I had to rank what I've seen of Star Trek, it would go TNG>TOS>Discovery>Enterprise.

That said, not the biggest Star Trek fan either way.

Jute88 said:
the visual style (okay to me, too futuristic for some),
Yeah...I'm okay with it, but I can get why people would be put off.

But seriously, why is it so dark? Even the bridge of the NX-01 was better lit than this.

the new look of the klingons (personally didn't care, I applaud them for atleast trying something new with the makeup),
I'm mixed on the klingons.

On one hand, Star Trek alien makeup has been...well, pretty crap prior to this (far as I've seen, there's been exceptions). So on the one hand, I like that these klingons look and sound alien. On the other, they really don't match the 'standard' klingons we've previously seen.
I feel that the klingons were in their prime during Star Trek VI. They were pretty militaristic, smart and aggressive, but they hadn't devolved yet into these honor-obsessed space-vikings/cavemen we had in TNG, DS9 and ENT.

The "standard" klingon is kinda difficult to describe. They've been revamped so many times. Though the part about klingons being cannibals doesn't honestly sound that difficult to believe.

the mood of show (I agree that the show took itself a bit too seriously.
But

It just didn't like Star Trek to me. I haven't even finished the first season, so I can't tell if it even ends well or not.
I won't spoil the ending, but I do sympathise with this. Again, not a big Star Trek fan, but I've said it before and I'll say it again - this is the most "un-Star Trek" Star Trek show I've seen. That comes down to its characters, to its plot, to its aesthetic, to its tone, to, well, everything. Whether that's good or bad is down to the individual, but if someone says that Discovery puts them off for this, then I do get that.
I was mostly very forgiving to the new things the show did. The most off-putting thing in the show was how violent and out of character Mudd felt to me. Harcourt Fenton Mudd, a minor character from TOS that I shouldn't even care about that much, and yet I can't stand him in the new series.

There are some okay moments here and there, but it just felt boring to me. Characters didn't interest me (though some of them were promising), the story was boring, Michael was annoying, the Tardigrade was ripped from a game or something.
Yeah.

I know Michael is the protagonist, but to me, she's easily the least engaging member of the main cast.

Lorca FTW!
I was starting to warm up to Saru myself.


trunkage said:
But then I'm a B5 heathen.
Another B5 fan?

Squee!
Entil'Zha!