So I was watching Little Mermaid the other day...

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thejboy88

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Or, to be more precise, one of Disney?s new DVD?s of it (If forget which edition it is), and my brother and I are just browsing through some of the special features. Eventually, we come across an animated storyboard sequence of one of the films major songs, ?Poor Unfortunate Souls?. Now, as big fans of villains songs, and this one in particular, naturally we had to watch it then and there, so we did.

It was great as you?d expect, and even seeing that sketching type of animation you get from pre-finished animation didn?t bother me. However, as I was watching it, I couldn?t help but notice Ariel?s appearance, specifically in the still frame sequences that hadn?t been fully animated yet. It was subtle, but there was a notable difference in the way she appeared in those frames than she did in the final film.

Her face was rounder, eyes much smaller than her final appearance, her arms were a little thicker and her overall figure was far less thin than she ultimately appears. In fact, she appeared far more like an actual 16-year-old might look (which is what Ariel apparently was in the film). As I looked at her like that, I couldn?t help but think to myself:

?Huh?she actually looks good here.?

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat at that, let me clarify that I don?t think that the final look they gave her was in any way unattractive, far from it in fact. I think she?s gorgeous, as many from my generation did. But even so, every time I looked at her, something always felt off about her, but for the life of me, I could never quite put my finger on why. After having seen this though, I finally get it.

The Ariel of Disney was too unrealistic.

Now, again to clarify, I am well aware that this film is, at the end of the day, a cartoon, and in cartoons, there?s exaggerations and a general lack of realism. I get that. But even so, the Disney Princesses of this era in Disney films, with Ariel as the prime example, all seemed to have similar issues, and that being that they were designed for (as my brother once said) ?maximum prettiness?. Now, obviously there?s nothing wrong with making fictional characters pretty, it happens all the time and not just in animation. But even so, some things just had a way of making them less appealing to me.

So, where am I going with this? Nowhere in particular. I don?t really want to make a point about women being objectified or how designs for characters are affected by marketing departments or anything like that, even though those issues are definitely worth having. I just wanted to get out what was going through my head in all this. Ideas of how Disney?s female characters have always looked their best to me when they were doing something different, like with Mulan, Jane, Nani and, yes, this original Ariel design.

So yeah, welcome to my head, I guess.
 

Toejam

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Not entirely off topic (apologies anyway), but did you happen to see the Bishop get an erection?

I was absolutley amazed the first time I saw that...hang on that doesn't sound right...er, yeah anyway lol, go watch it again and at the bit where the witch is getting married, just as she's about to go down the aisle, it cuts to the Bishop at the front and he likes what he sees...
 

Thaluikhain

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Well, they are going for a stylised look, not trying to be realistic.

OTOH, maybe mermaids just look like that. I've never seen a 16 year old mermaid.
 

shootthebandit

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thejboy88 said:
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The Ariel of Disney was too unrealistic.
You are complaining about a mermaid (a woman with a tail) being unrealistic

Unrealistic body image is the least of my concerns about disney. A man with a history of racism, anti-semitism, nazi sympathising and corporate greed is suddenly the moral compass for young children.

in aladdin his skin tone gets slowly whiter as he goes from an a street rat to an arabian prince. Hes practically caucasian by the time hes wealthy and powerful. Thats not even half as bad as some of disney's earlier work where the racism is downright obvious not even thinly veiled
 

Casual Shinji

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thejboy88 said:
The Ariel of Disney was too unrealistic.

Now, again to clarify, I am well aware that this film is, at the end of the day, a cartoon, and in cartoons, there?s exaggerations and a general lack of realism. I get that. But even so, the Disney Princesses of this era in Disney films, with Ariel as the prime example, all seemed to have similar issues, and that being that they were designed for (as my brother once said) ?maximum prettiness?. Now, obviously there?s nothing wrong with making fictional characters pretty, it happens all the time and not just in animation. But even so, some things just had a way of making them less appealing to me.
Except then you run into the risk of her looking too realistic for the rest of the cast. Remember in Beauty and the Beast when Belle is with her father, and she looks all pretty and realistically proportioned and he looks like a pudgy cartoon?

There's nothing wrong with Ariel's design. The only thing wrong with her is that which plagues nearly every Disney animated princess: A lot of wooden expressions to maintain her pure, pretty appearance. Eventhough a more extreme expression would make her come to life (just as it does with every other animated character), this is forsaken so as never to make her look a silly or unattractive. And ironically this ends up making them look silly and unattractive, because these expressions look very unnatural. Belle suffered from this as well. I actually always preferred Gaston's blond bimbo groupies over Belle, because they had more life to their faces.

Jane from Tarzan was a silly character from the start and ends up having a large array of facial expressions.
 

Eamar

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Toejam said:
Not entirely off topic (apologies anyway), but did you happen to see the Bishop get an erection?

I was absolutley amazed the first time I saw that...hang on that doesn't sound right...er, yeah anyway lol, go watch it again and at the bit where the witch is getting married, just as she's about to go down the aisle, it cuts to the Bishop at the front and he likes what he sees...
Actually,that's been debunked - it's just his knee sticking out from his robe and viewed from a slightly... unfortunate angle.

OT: I have no problem with Ariel's design, but it's true she represents the most extreme end of Disney's princess stylisation. Disney princesses basically look like babies - huge heads, big eyes, big foreheads and small, dainty noses and mouths - because baby features translate in our brains as cute, vulnerable and youthful, therefore attractive. I can't for the life of me remember where I learned that, but it made so much sense to me once it was pointed out.

But yeah, Ariel is that taken to the extreme. I think they actually tried to tone it down a bit for a while after The Little Mermaid precisely because of the reaction mentioned in the OP.
 

Lilani

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I think Arial's stylization was very exaggerated, but not too out of the norm for even the Disney princesses. Yes their next princess Belle has some slightly different proportions, but their reason for that wouldn't have been because Arial was "too" anything. It would have been because Belle is a different character of a different age, modeled after a different actress. Arial has become one of the most profitable characters for Disney even among the princesses, if there's any lesson to be learned from her it's that girls want more of that, not less.
 

Soviet Heavy

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Casual Shinji said:
thejboy88 said:
The Ariel of Disney was too unrealistic.

Now, again to clarify, I am well aware that this film is, at the end of the day, a cartoon, and in cartoons, there?s exaggerations and a general lack of realism. I get that. But even so, the Disney Princesses of this era in Disney films, with Ariel as the prime example, all seemed to have similar issues, and that being that they were designed for (as my brother once said) ?maximum prettiness?. Now, obviously there?s nothing wrong with making fictional characters pretty, it happens all the time and not just in animation. But even so, some things just had a way of making them less appealing to me.
Except then you run into the risk of her looking too realistic for the rest of the cast. Remember in Beauty and the Beast when Belle is with her father, and she looks all pretty and realistically proportioned and he looks like a pudgy cartoon?

There's nothing wrong with Ariel's design. The only thing wrong with her is that which plagues nearly every Disney animated princess: A lot of wooden expressions to maintain her pure, pretty appearance. Eventhough a more extreme expression would make her come to life (just as it does with every other animated character), this is forsaken so as never to make her look a silly or unattractive. And ironically this ends up making them look silly and unattractive, because these expressions look very unnatural. Belle suffered from this as well. I actually always preferred Gaston's blond bimbo groupies over Belle, because they had more life to their faces.

Jane from Tarzan was a silly character from the start and ends up having a large array of facial expressions.
With regards to animation, I think that Disney's best human female characters are Megara from Hercules and Helga Sinclair from Atlantis. Both are very different from your usual designs, and that's why I like them so much.
 

Casual Shinji

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Soviet Heavy said:
With regards to animation, I think that Disney's best human female characters are Megara from Hercules and Helga Sinclair from Atlantis. Both are very different from your usual designs, and that's why I like them so much.
Helga is really great! She was obviously the sultry femme fatale, but she also had the physical build of someone who could seriously throw down. All while watching Atlantis I was thinking of how great it would be to have a movie where she played a central part.

But both characters are designed to be tough chicks, or at least Megara is supposed to be a snark, so there's no need for them to maintain their composure and be good role models for little girls. Atlantis and Hercules both have great expressive animation probably due to the unconventional designs not locking the animators in.
 

GonzoGamer

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Yea, I got a thing for redheads.

Wasn't Ariel's face based on Alyssa Milano's? I was always had a thing for her too so I might be wrong but I remember hearing (back in the day like around when the movie originally came out on tape) that she had modeled for them when they were doing the original character sketches.
 

Someone Depressing

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I do like it when Disney tries to do non-generic, non-rail thins designs like that. I liked Jane because she was more reminiscent of a bishoujo/puni girl that you tend to see in romantic comedy anime, and I liked Nani because she was designed by the movie's director and storyboarder, whose illustrations I will put in the bottom of the post because he is da boss.

I noticed that in Beauty and The Beast, my, like, second favourite movie ever, that the Bimbettes looked the same. And the woman buying stuff from the baker. Busty, leggy and hourglass-shaped, all with the same slightly pudgy but still cute face.
This really irritated me: All the men look different, and so do all the "unnatractive women", and Belle is different because she's the main character. So, it's just Disney being lazy and slightly mysoginist.
Like... really mysoginistic.



As a stylystic decision, or just because animatin' needs done and the animators can only afford a few faces, same face syndrome is not bad. However, Disney just made the seventh highest grossing film of all time, and its protagonist and arguable villian but kind of not both have the exact same face. Ok, excusable, wait for it...

As their last movie's protagonist.

Mysoginy, laziness, artistic starvation, whatever you call it, it's one of Disney's faults that eventually started getting matted down, but now it's springing up worse than usual. By making them "uber-pretty", they make them absoloutely identical. Same face, same tiny-waisted petit-titted Barbie Winterland body, and just to top it all off, making them about as interesting as processed cardboard. Anne is boring, Elsa is boring, and they're supposed to be sisters or something.





His name is Chris Sanders, by the way. Obviously, his style isn't something you'd expect from someone who made movies with Disney, but it is. It's why Lilo and Stitch looks so out of place when compared to other Disney movies. Special mention goes to the vaguely asian features that all of his characters have and the thick legs, which are usually give aways that he designed that specific character.
 

Jacco

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Someone Depressing said:
Mysoginy, laziness, artistic starvation, whatever you call it, it's one of Disney's faults that eventually started getting matted down, but now it's springing up worse than usual. By making them "uber-pretty", they make them absoloutely identical. Same face, same tiny-waisted petit-titted Barbie Winterland body, and just to top it all off, making them about as interesting as processed cardboard. Anne is boring, Elsa is boring, and they're supposed to be sisters or something.
I don't know that it's misogyny. People like to throw words like that around a lot now days and it loses its meaning.

That being said, don't you see that exact same thing in real life? How many girls do you see a day that are conventionally "attractive" but that are unique? None. They all wear the same outfits, have the same hair, put on the same make-up. Hell, they all even wear the same sunglasses. And guys too. How many conventional "dudebros" do you see every day wearng polo shirts? Spiked hair? A baseball hat?

There are things that are safely attractive and there are things that are not. In order to make their characters the most appealing to the most amount of people, Disney is simply using these conventions because they are safe.
 

Aramis Night

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Jacco said:
Someone Depressing said:
Mysoginy, laziness, artistic starvation, whatever you call it, it's one of Disney's faults that eventually started getting matted down, but now it's springing up worse than usual. By making them "uber-pretty", they make them absoloutely identical. Same face, same tiny-waisted petit-titted Barbie Winterland body, and just to top it all off, making them about as interesting as processed cardboard. Anne is boring, Elsa is boring, and they're supposed to be sisters or something.
I don't know that it's misogyny. People like to throw words like that around a lot now days and it loses its meaning.

That being said, don't you see that exact same thing in real life? How many girls do you see a day that are conventionally "attractive" but that are unique? None. They all wear the same outfits, have the same hair, put on the same make-up. Hell, they all even wear the same sunglasses. And guys too. How many conventional "dudebros" do you see every day wearng polo shirts? Spiked hair? A baseball hat?

There are things that are safely attractive and there are things that are not. In order to make their characters the most appealing to the most amount of people, Disney is simply using these conventions because they are safe.
I've been noticing this a lot more lately. Say what you will about the 90's/early 2000's. At least back then people actually put some thought into having a unique appearance and identity. I don't see a lot of that when I leave the house anymore. Almost everyone is wearing the same stuff and look alike. Expressing anything unique about one's character seems to be online only now.
 

Casual Shinji

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Someone Depressing said:
I noticed that in Beauty and The Beast, my, like, second favourite movie ever, that the Bimbettes looked the same. And the woman buying stuff from the baker. Busty, leggy and hourglass-shaped, all with the same slightly pudgy but still cute face.
This really irritated me: All the men look different, and so do all the "unnatractive women", and Belle is different because she's the main character. So, it's just Disney being lazy and slightly mysoginist.
Like... really mysoginistic.

As a stylystic decision, or just because animatin' needs done and the animators can only afford a few faces, same face syndrome is not bad. However, Disney just made the seventh highest grossing film of all time, and its protagonist and arguable villian but kind of not both have the exact same face. Ok, excusable, wait for it...

As their last movie's protagonist.

Mysoginy, laziness, artistic starvation, whatever you call it, it's one of Disney's faults that eventually started getting matted down, but now it's springing up worse than usual. By making them "uber-pretty", they make them absoloutely identical. Same face, same tiny-waisted petit-titted Barbie Winterland body, and just to top it all off, making them about as interesting as processed cardboard. Anne is boring, Elsa is boring, and they're supposed to be sisters or something.
Honestly though this isn't something inherent to Disney alone. "Same face prettiness" is something nearly all cartoonists suffer from. You look at the work of Chris Sanders and you'll notice all his pretty girls also look exactly alike. Same with Bruce Timm or Dean Yeagle.

This probably has to do with what a cartoonist finds to be beautiful and sticking with that whenever they draw a pin-up. I have my own image of beauty, and if I were to draw pretty girls they'd likely end up looking very similar too.

In Disney's case though with the designs of the last three princesses it has more to do with appealing to as much of an audience as possible. Which means little to no unique facial characteristics.
 

verdant monkai

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thejboy88 said:
Or, to be more precise, one of Disney?s new DVD?s of it (If forget which edition it is), and my brother and I are just browsing through some of the special features. Eventually, we come across an animated storyboard sequence of one of the films major songs, ?Poor Unfortunate Souls?. Now, as big fans of villains songs, and this one in particular, naturally we had to watch it then and there, so we did.

It was great as you?d expect, and even seeing that sketching type of animation you get from pre-finished animation didn?t bother me. However, as I was watching it, I couldn?t help but notice Ariel?s appearance, specifically in the still frame sequences that hadn?t been fully animated yet. It was subtle, but there was a notable difference in the way she appeared in those frames than she did in the final film.

Her face was rounder, eyes much smaller than her final appearance, her arms were a little thicker and her overall figure was far less thin than she ultimately appears. In fact, she appeared far more like an actual 16-year-old might look (which is what Ariel apparently was in the film). As I looked at her like that, I couldn?t help but think to myself:

?Huh?she actually looks good here.?

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat at that, let me clarify that I don?t think that the final look they gave her was in any way unattractive, far from it in fact. I think she?s gorgeous, as many from my generation did. But even so, every time I looked at her, something always felt off about her, but for the life of me, I could never quite put my finger on why. After having seen this though, I finally get it.

The Ariel of Disney was too unrealistic.

Now, again to clarify, I am well aware that this film is, at the end of the day, a cartoon, and in cartoons, there?s exaggerations and a general lack of realism. I get that. But even so, the Disney Princesses of this era in Disney films, with Ariel as the prime example, all seemed to have similar issues, and that being that they were designed for (as my brother once said) ?maximum prettiness?. Now, obviously there?s nothing wrong with making fictional characters pretty, it happens all the time and not just in animation. But even so, some things just had a way of making them less appealing to me.

So, where am I going with this? Nowhere in particular. I don?t really want to make a point about women being objectified or how designs for characters are affected by marketing departments or anything like that, even though those issues are definitely worth having. I just wanted to get out what was going through my head in all this. Ideas of how Disney?s female characters have always looked their best to me when they were doing something different, like with Mulan, Jane, Nani and, yes, this original Ariel design.

So yeah, welcome to my head, I guess.
Changed your life didnt it??

I remember watching it as a young girl. I wanted to change my name to what the Princes name was Eric or something. I never did probably for the best.

The only thing unrealistic about Ariel is her waist. Organs will not fit in that its like having a drain pipe for a stomach.

My favourite Disney Princess' were

Mulan (love Asian girls)
Ariel (shes kind of a mythical creature)
Cinderella (it would be like sex with someone's gran before she get too old)
 

TheIceQueen

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I watched the video and I'm not seeing what you're talking about. She still looks the same unnaturally thin as in the full movie. In fact, at several points, she looks even worse, way more freakishly so. Which makes sense since it's a sketch.
 

holy_secret

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This reminds me of when I watched the little mermaid a few days ago in Swedish and realized that Ursula calls Ariel "that little c*nt" in Swedish. I was baffled. How the hell did they get away with that?
 

Ickorus

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shootthebandit said:
thejboy88 said:
.
The Ariel of Disney was too unrealistic.
in aladdin his skin tone gets slowly whiter as he goes from an a street rat to an arabian prince. Hes practically caucasian by the time hes wealthy and powerful. Thats not even half as bad as some of disney's earlier work where the racism is downright obvious not even thinly veiled
I'm assuming you're referring to this picture:


Because I hate to break it to you, but that 'proof' is from a pornographic yaoi image of Hercules sucking off Aladdin.