Yet somehow MRA's can remain clean as a whistle even when their most prominent voices proclaim all women to be child murderers.undeadsuitor said:
so if you ever wanted to know why someone wouldn't feel comfortable calling themselves a feminist...
- Thread starter DudeistBelieve
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And there are no conservatives that make you ashamed to speak up about conservative shit?DudeistBelieve said:
Yes. Yes I do. I find most MRAs are just nutjobs who want to spite another group in ways that completely miss the point, kind of like "AllLivesMatter". Yeah, all lives matter, but that is glossing over the issue.Smithnikov said:
I just personally find myself often defending "Men's Rights" because men can be gay or black, so clearly being a man doesn't make you immune to oppression.
And I know many straight white men, many on this very forum, who are allies to oppressed groups, and Id hate for their aid and support to be disregarded because they don't suffer as others have.
I want to even the scales, not tip them in the opposite direction. Sexism is sexism, and racism is racism.
I'm not conservative and don't hold many if at all conservative values of which I'd speak up about, only against usually sooooooo.... no? I imagine if I did, I'd have a bigger bone to pick with a character like Milo and the rest of the talking heads than I usually though.Smithnikov said:
Admittedly when I was libertarian (little l) for some reason that view point got lumped in with MRA and Mysogny, but I never personally saw or witness something like the video above coming from the camp.... and most of the people complaining about that stuff were the people saying libertarians were horrible people because they didn't believe in the welfare safety net.
Which really horrible? Eh, never got it.
Anyway,
This is the reason why I mock my self saying I dirty leftist hippy views. Hell I'll go a step further, I worry about being that woman in the video bitching about the lyft driver, making other people's lives shit over stupid bullshit like a tacky hulu girl as if it was a Sambo doll or a confederate bumper sticker.
Okay, I've been watching this Defranco son of a ***** for a month and I quite like the brah, is there something about him I should know about? He appears pretty level headed.Silentpony said:
While you're right Devils, and I feel very much on the same page as you, I feel the label has a negative connotation stuck it now because of people like this. It's like how Anonymous has equally the reputation for being internet trolls as the do for being Hacktivists, anyone can slap that label on themselves and act in the name of it.Lil devils x said:
Well I don't want to be called something only have the identity of what I am being usurped by every jackass who has the Power (money) and the social media preference using it to get people fired from their jobs for having an ignorant or problematic world view. I'm not comfortable with that. At all. I don't want to be under the same umbrella term as those people.
I've been watching him for like a month straight. What are you seeing in him that I don't?Ebola_chan said:
Yup, that right there was some right harpy behaviour.
I'm so outraged right now.
Also, I'm happy to hear that I can now despise gamers as a whole on account of the many unpleasant specimens I have encountered that clearly represent the whole.
I'm so outraged right now.
Also, I'm happy to hear that I can now despise gamers as a whole on account of the many unpleasant specimens I have encountered that clearly represent the whole.
I think you might be lying to your self.Lil devils x said:
When i look for information of contemporary feminism, i go to feminist sources and websites. And the mayority of issues i see there is stuff like this. Thus my view of feminism is not a good one atm. That has nothing to do with alt-right, as i don't take my information from there. Sure, i believe that a lot of anti-feminist articles are full of misrepresentation, exxageration and lies, but when pro-feminist articles and a huge part of websites of better known feminists or feminist groups manage to paint a picture of feminism taken over by sexists, then the bad reputation of feminism is not caused by right wing propaganda.
As for your claims about what feminism really is about :
a) every feminist outlet that uses it differently has as much claim to the meaning of true feminism
b) It reeks a lot of true scotsman fallacy.
Yes, there are still a lot of feminists out there who fight for legitimate issues of gender equality. But they are not the whole movement. I seriously doubt they are a mayority nowadays and they certainly have long ceased to be the voice of the movement.
Yes, the instance oin the opening post is just a stupid person. It's a single individual and i don't think she counts as a prominent voice of feminism. But then the feminist complaint of modern society most written about over the last year was probably "manspreading". I am not really sure about the second one as most others were kind of local or only prominent for a time, but i had also had to read a lot about "How does voting Clinton relate to feminism (infighting included)", "intersectionality and were the prominent feminists of the past actually racist" and (not american for a change) "should feminism condemn the mass sexual assault by refugees at new year in Cologne or should it side with the refuugees for race and social class issues and because 'rape happenes everywhere all the time anyway'". Then there is always the constant noise and outrage over pink toys, how this or that media clothes a fictional woman, the bickering about sexual stuff (more infighting between sex-positive and sex-negative feminists included) and stuff about patriarchy and rape culture using fishy or downright false data (i am scientist, i react really bad to false or misleading statistics and i often try to track the original sources)
The real outragous, legitimate issues i read about last year mostly happened in India and Pakistan. And i have a lot of respect for feminists there. In the west, not so much.
I and many other people have a negative opinion on League Of Legends players do to the behavior of some.Zhukov said:
I actually would look cautious at anyone that would self-apply the gamer label as well. Could just be a person who like retrocollecting and making lets plays. Could be a KiA poster with some seriously questionable opinions. One of those two versions under that umbrella I'm going to be on egg shells around.
I never actually finished my thought with my wrestling story earlier in the thread. I stopped persuing prowrestling for numerous reasons, but one of them was the way I saw others acting and other people being treated. The title and something I tied so closely to the core of my being wasn't as valued as I thought it was or had been acting like.
I'm just throwing this thought out there, it probably isn't a very healthy thing to say "My Name Is {blank} and I'm XYZ" and tie ones... self, ones identity to a concrete thing. At least I don't think so. I heard Rhonda Rousey after her title reign, she tied so much of herself to being the person who wins fights and holds that championship that when she lost it she had a panic attack, ya know a real "What am I if not this?"
I'm probably going to abstract and off with this.... but ya know, Taoist saying that it's best to be an uncarved block of wood, because it's potential to be anything is huge. Once you carve the block, it's stuck being that thing forever.
Being a gamer isn't a movement. Its an expression of interest in a hobby. When people criticize the term "gamer" I, to be blunt, roll my eyes. Now, terms like "hardcore" gamer, or "casual" gamer, I can understand apprehension to, but gamer on its own is sooooo blanket term.DudeistBelieve said:
Plus we are not defined as one thing. Gamer is but one of many labels that apply to me. Labels can be used for good. Hell, a lot of us are here due to identifying under similar labels. I like gamers cause I can relate. Most of us here play games, and we can use that to relate to each other and share interests, and get closer to each other if we want.
Anyone who loves Morrowind can consider me a friend. Sure, some may use that to divide too, but no one has to.
As for Rhonda Rousey...shes a professional athlete. Its not just some label, its her job. Winning is akin to doing a good job. Its like some sales person trying to sell the most product cause they earn commission.
Dude... really?
We're still on this "look, a woman acted badly! EXPLAIN THAT, FEMINISM" thing?
Like, do you legitimately think that's a good argument?
Oh yeah, a woman acted badly, let's forget the whole "women and men being treated equally" thing. Let's just pack it in, The Escapist dudes think it's not a good idea!
We're still on this "look, a woman acted badly! EXPLAIN THAT, FEMINISM" thing?
Like, do you legitimately think that's a good argument?
Oh yeah, a woman acted badly, let's forget the whole "women and men being treated equally" thing. Let's just pack it in, The Escapist dudes think it's not a good idea!
We don't have to, anymore? All right!Phasmal said:Dude... really?
We're still on this "look, a woman acted badly! EXPLAIN THAT, FEMINISM" thing?
Like, do you legitimately think that's a good argument?
Oh yeah, a woman acted badly, let's forget the whole "women and men being treated equally" thing. Let's just pack it in, The Escapist dudes think it's not a good idea!
In all seriousness the woman in the video is a moron.
Yes, "manspreading" was the complaint most written about last year...by people who aren't feminists. There were some feminists using it as an example of a problem, but hordes of anti-feminists strawmanning feminism with it.Satinavian said:
It'd be hard to say for sure which was the most talked about feminist issue last year, but I'd guess it was rape, it usually seems to be. We had Ke$ha trying to get out of her contract with Sony, the usual high school and sports teams rapes, Lady Gaga bringing rape survivors on stage for "Until it happens to you" (the latter might have been this year, not sure of the dates).
Possibly it was abortion rights, pay inequality or prominent women being slut-shamed or otherwise unfairly maligned by the media, but it was probably rape.
Oh boy, this topic again.
Alright, before we move on, let's quickly talk about semantics.
Feminism is not only a belief in the equality of the sexes, but also a movement that tries to act on those ideas. When most people refuse to call themselves a feminist, it's not because they don't believe in the idea of equality, but rather because they are worried where the movement is going and what schools of thought came to dominate it.
I didn't quite understand it until my german tutor said that she hated feminists after the men in her class refused to carry her bags after being yelled at by a local gender activist. I still think she overeacted, but if that was your first impression of the movement, you would't think too kindly of it yourself.
You have to admit, even if the extremists don't represent the majority, they nevertheless impact its overall reputation. I used to be quite close to the enviormentalist movement, before being fed up with tree spikers and Kantian ideologues that threw facts and actual research out the window and turned anybody that disagreed into a pariah.
The truth is that when young people consume media they see feminism not as a movement that tries to adress actual social issues, but as a collection of lunatics that justify verbal and physical violence against all of their detractors.
I'm a Feminist, but I prefer if people would call me an Egalitarian.
Alright, before we move on, let's quickly talk about semantics.
Feminism is not only a belief in the equality of the sexes, but also a movement that tries to act on those ideas. When most people refuse to call themselves a feminist, it's not because they don't believe in the idea of equality, but rather because they are worried where the movement is going and what schools of thought came to dominate it.
I didn't quite understand it until my german tutor said that she hated feminists after the men in her class refused to carry her bags after being yelled at by a local gender activist. I still think she overeacted, but if that was your first impression of the movement, you would't think too kindly of it yourself.
You have to admit, even if the extremists don't represent the majority, they nevertheless impact its overall reputation. I used to be quite close to the enviormentalist movement, before being fed up with tree spikers and Kantian ideologues that threw facts and actual research out the window and turned anybody that disagreed into a pariah.
The truth is that when young people consume media they see feminism not as a movement that tries to adress actual social issues, but as a collection of lunatics that justify verbal and physical violence against all of their detractors.
I'm a Feminist, but I prefer if people would call me an Egalitarian.
Certainly, but then that's more or less always been true for all rights movements. They go from reviled while they are active, to "obviously right" once they've won what they were fighting over, and the new one's are now going too far.Level 7 Dragon said:
Yes, that's why so many people avoid them. People arrive to make the world a better place, leave after seeing something like this.Thaluikhain said:
It is representative as the majority of feminists, as everyday feminism is the most popular and most common views in feminism. When you search " feminists site" it comes up at the top of the list. That is what Modern feminism actually is about, Modern feminism is about being MORE inclusive, including men, LGBT, minorities issues and how feminism can help. Sex negative and sex positive people are always going to be fighting regardless of feminists exist or not. There are prudes and non prudes and honestly that hasn't changed much in the last 100 years so I am not seeing change much in the next 100 years. That is a fight that has been going on long before people concerned themselves with feminism.Satinavian said:
An 11 year old girl being blamed for being gang raped by 20 males in a court room by a lawyer in the US.
[link]http://feministing.com/2012/11/29/this-week-in-victim-blaming-11-year-old-gang-rape-survivor-as-seductive-spider/[/link]
Judges, police and community victim blaming/ ignoring evidence:
[link]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/18/montana-judge-rape-victim_n_4811890.html[/link]
[link]https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/the-police-told-her-to-report-her-rape-then-arrested-her-for?utm_term=.gx56zPXLw#.xybQZAEjR[/link]
[link]https://www.theodysseyonline.com/high-school-teacher-sexually-assaults-students-community-blames-victims[/link]
[link]http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/04/after-church-leader-is-convicted-for-decade-of-rape-his-community-blames-the-victim/[/link]
[link]https://thinkprogress.org/friend-of-stanford-rapist-blamed-victim-urged-judge-not-to-be-politically-correct-a2b114fafc07#.wivthxy5q[/link]
The reality is still sadly in the west that it is better for the victim to not report rape than it is for them to do so. If you report a rape, your life as you knew it is essentially over. People do not want to be a hero, they just want to be normal. They just want everything to be the same as it was before this happened to them. They did not ask for this to happen to them and honestly it is easier to forget about it happening than to tell someone because the moment people find out you will be " rape girl" for then on and everything you have ever done, accomplished, and plan to is no longer what it was. The second people find out you were raped, you are no longer you just " rape girl". Guys don't want to date " rape girl" because " rape girl will tell people you raped her. " rape girl" is not allowed to enjoy sex because you know you can't enjoy sex and be raped, if she enjoyed it obviously she wasn't raped right? Anything else that you have ever done or will do really doesn't matter because you will just be known as that girl who was raped from then on, and the people who raped you, their friends and family will never ever let you forget so it is better off you just move and hope no one saw your name or photo in the news or social media to find out what happened. When guys are still getting together in groups to gang rape girls in the US, it is still very much a problem. There are issues within the culture itself that must be addressed to change this long term. In both very wealthy and poor communities, there are multiple social issues that must change to make a difference with this. The ideas that wealthy men are above the law and can do as they please or that women are beneath them and "deserve" to be treated poorly must change. Yes, this IS an issue in the west, and even a worse issue for Native Americans, who are raped at a much higher rate, and usually by non Native American white males who think they are entitled to do so.
[link]http://www.vice.com/read/native-american-women-are-rape-targets-because-of-a-legislative-loophole-511[/link]
Sadly rape culture is still very much a problem in the west, and yes it still needs to be addressed. It is sad when people in the west shout how appalled they are at when a woman or child is gang raped in India, but ignore it when a woman or child is gang raped in the US and instead turn a blind eye and act like it isn't still a problem here. Honestly when I hear people say something as ignorant as " rape culture isn't an issue in the west" it is like nails on a chalkboard. If it were not an issue, I would not have been raped as a child. My sister would not have been raped, my cousin would not have been raped my grandmother would not have been raped. Women and girls should not be growing up learning this is just part of being a woman in the US. They should not be having to learn that this is just something that happens to us all, or that it just comes with the territory as we currently ARE learning. The goal here should be that most women do not even know anyone that this happened to and this is just something we learn about how it used to happen in history. When we get to that point, Rape culture will no longer be an issue plaguing our society, instead it will finally be over. That has not happened yet. I really really really wish it would become true at some point.
[link]http://feministing.com/2012/11/29/this-week-in-victim-blaming-11-year-old-gang-rape-survivor-as-seductive-spider/[/link]
Judges, police and community victim blaming/ ignoring evidence:
[link]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/18/montana-judge-rape-victim_n_4811890.html[/link]
[link]https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/the-police-told-her-to-report-her-rape-then-arrested-her-for?utm_term=.gx56zPXLw#.xybQZAEjR[/link]
[link]https://www.theodysseyonline.com/high-school-teacher-sexually-assaults-students-community-blames-victims[/link]
[link]http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/04/after-church-leader-is-convicted-for-decade-of-rape-his-community-blames-the-victim/[/link]
[link]https://thinkprogress.org/friend-of-stanford-rapist-blamed-victim-urged-judge-not-to-be-politically-correct-a2b114fafc07#.wivthxy5q[/link]
The reality is still sadly in the west that it is better for the victim to not report rape than it is for them to do so. If you report a rape, your life as you knew it is essentially over. People do not want to be a hero, they just want to be normal. They just want everything to be the same as it was before this happened to them. They did not ask for this to happen to them and honestly it is easier to forget about it happening than to tell someone because the moment people find out you will be " rape girl" for then on and everything you have ever done, accomplished, and plan to is no longer what it was. The second people find out you were raped, you are no longer you just " rape girl". Guys don't want to date " rape girl" because " rape girl will tell people you raped her. " rape girl" is not allowed to enjoy sex because you know you can't enjoy sex and be raped, if she enjoyed it obviously she wasn't raped right? Anything else that you have ever done or will do really doesn't matter because you will just be known as that girl who was raped from then on, and the people who raped you, their friends and family will never ever let you forget so it is better off you just move and hope no one saw your name or photo in the news or social media to find out what happened. When guys are still getting together in groups to gang rape girls in the US, it is still very much a problem. There are issues within the culture itself that must be addressed to change this long term. In both very wealthy and poor communities, there are multiple social issues that must change to make a difference with this. The ideas that wealthy men are above the law and can do as they please or that women are beneath them and "deserve" to be treated poorly must change. Yes, this IS an issue in the west, and even a worse issue for Native Americans, who are raped at a much higher rate, and usually by non Native American white males who think they are entitled to do so.
[link]http://www.vice.com/read/native-american-women-are-rape-targets-because-of-a-legislative-loophole-511[/link]
[link]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_victimization_of_native_American_women[/link]
Sadly rape culture is still very much a problem in the west, and yes it still needs to be addressed. It is sad when people in the west shout how appalled they are at when a woman or child is gang raped in India, but ignore it when a woman or child is gang raped in the US and instead turn a blind eye and act like it isn't still a problem here. Honestly when I hear people say something as ignorant as " rape culture isn't an issue in the west" it is like nails on a chalkboard. If it were not an issue, I would not have been raped as a child. My sister would not have been raped, my cousin would not have been raped my grandmother would not have been raped. Women and girls should not be growing up learning this is just part of being a woman in the US. They should not be having to learn that this is just something that happens to us all, or that it just comes with the territory as we currently ARE learning. The goal here should be that most women do not even know anyone that this happened to and this is just something we learn about how it used to happen in history. When we get to that point, Rape culture will no longer be an issue plaguing our society, instead it will finally be over. That has not happened yet. I really really really wish it would become true at some point.
Of course I also think it is beneficial for people to take note of the differences between paternal and maternal cultures as there are quite a few things that have to be overcome to be able to make that culture actually " equal" and it goes back to the design of the system itself and where value and importance are placed in the society. Yes, western culture is a patriarchal system, and when comparing it to a matriarchal society ( like the one I come from, where the man takes the woman's name upon marriage, women are traditionally the ones who conduct business and control the economy and own property), there are numerous differences in how that society functions and where resources are spent. For it to become a truly equal society, you have to design a system using both elements of the paternal and maternal to have a balance that represents both. For example, in the maternal society I come from, the people who teach and raise the children are the highest social class and the warrior is the lowest and not elevated. In maternal culture, the warrior is less than a sewage worker and the teacher and doctors are the most valuable. To equalize this in western society, you would have to elevate the importance of teachers, doctors and caretakers and lessen the status of sports heroes and generals thus equalizing them. Teachers and sports stars would have the same social status in an equal system. Though there is much more involved that just simply doing that. In Hopi culture, for example, LGBT were also of the highest social class, and also preferred for teachers where in western culture, they are often barred from doing so and seen as controversial. ALSO one of the largest differences is how different business and the economy works. Since children take priority in a maternal culture, the system, including the economy and " the work week" was designed around them and they were not considered a " burden" on the system as they are in western society. Businesses expected to deal with children, not have this absurd idea that children have no place at work. These are just a couple of the systems that MUST change if we truly want to have an equal society, there are actually much more that would have to be addressed to finally get there. Just trying to squeeze some " girl stuff" into an already male designed system doesn't make it equal, you have to design a system that is both instead.
My girlfriend (who has a women and gender studies degree and currently works as a sexual health educator) talk about this pretty frequently. Having increased attention on real issues like sexual violence, intolerance, and double standards is great, it's just a shame that feminism had to become a fad adopted by what she likes to call "Taylor Swift feminists". Many (and this is based on purely my own observation and life experiences) care little for actual issues like the above and really just don't want to be bothered having an actual discussion about anything important. It's hard for me to get worked up about so called "injustices" like a dude with a sexy photo on his dashboard when there are women around the world who are raped, killed, and mutilated for seeking an education or wanting to dictate the direction of their own lives. Let alone the fact that you can rape someone here in the US and get away with it because you're a good swimmer.Dizchu said:
Having a tumblr and making hashtags about gender equality doesn't do shit. There are very few people willing to put their money where their mouth is. They'd rather put it in to whatever handbag the current pop-culture feminist icon is currently hawking.