I guess no MRA's or "egalitarians" could be troubled to throw some money in.Schadrach said:
Why?
so if you ever wanted to know why someone wouldn't feel comfortable calling themselves a feminist...
- Thread starter DudeistBelieve
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Why?
Long as you don't mind me doing the same to MRA's and the like every time Paul Elam or RooshV open their yaps.DudeistBelieve said:
I'm sorry, I've danced this dance too many times. This is probably about the 500th 'woman acts bad, connect this to feminism as a concept somehow' thread I've been in.DudeistBelieve said:
You can see things and get mad, fine. We don't generally have threads about other people acting shitty though. I mean, we all know how shitty gamers act. If we had a thread about it every time it happened, there would be no forum space left. Yet somehow we're all fine with identifying with that label.
Pardon me for saying so, but this site is always going to be a hornet's nest ripe for kicking when feminism is concerned. It's just better not to. A lot of people here have a lot of... feelings about it (and women in general).
As for your bit about labels, I'm a feminist because I believe in the equality of men and women, it's literally what it means. I don't really care about how it comes across to others, I'm always going to identify as it, because if I didn't - well, I'd be saying I don't believe in that. And as far as I'm concerned, that would make me a shitty person.
No, I'm not particularly interested in searching for things to get mad about, and I generally have more to dislike about MRA's than the way any given individual behaves in McDonalds.DudeistBelieve said:
No idea who those blokes are, so? Yeah?Smithnikov said:
Nah just lock the damn thing I suppose. Fucking more of a headache this thread than it's worth, and I regret the whole damn deal.Barbas said:
Feminism has the unique burden of being a progressive - or formerly progressive, depending on who you ask - ideology that, by its nature, purports to represent half the human population. When you have that many people under your umbrella, you're going to get some duds. Some dicks. Some toilet people who don't know shit about ass.
The important thing to remember - for everyone, whether you consider feminism the second coming of Christ or the second coming of Hitler - is that most people are not that shitty. Most people are just people. So by all means; point out and mock this ambulatory sack of garbage masquerading as a human being. But don't let it fool you into thinking that they represent a larger ideology simply because they said that they did.
In all seriousness - people, especially young people just out of high school, are more impressionable than they'd care to admit. Specifically, they're a lot more likely to buy into and repeat some bullshit nontroversy if they think doing so makes them appear like a more mature and socially aware person.
[sub](Seriously, I tried to explain the practical issues re: testicles but she would not have it)[/sub]
The important thing to remember - for everyone, whether you consider feminism the second coming of Christ or the second coming of Hitler - is that most people are not that shitty. Most people are just people. So by all means; point out and mock this ambulatory sack of garbage masquerading as a human being. But don't let it fool you into thinking that they represent a larger ideology simply because they said that they did.
This is anecdotal evidence, naturally, but I had an argument with my sister about that exact..."problem," and she pretty much made the same argument that you here consider a straw man invented by anti-feminists. I'm...pretty sure my sister doesn't consider herself an anti-feminist.Thaluikhain said:
In all seriousness - people, especially young people just out of high school, are more impressionable than they'd care to admit. Specifically, they're a lot more likely to buy into and repeat some bullshit nontroversy if they think doing so makes them appear like a more mature and socially aware person.
[sub](Seriously, I tried to explain the practical issues re: testicles but she would not have it)[/sub]
Is this really true where you live. Is there really a place in the western world where women have significantly less access to the common money than men in a marriage ?Lil devils x said:
Demestic violence is a difficult issue, often linked to a lot of he-said-she-said stuff. Science seems so say now that abusive wives are as common as abusive husbands, but that the stigma for a husband to admit to be beaten by his wife is still stronger. If police is called to defuse a situation (ad people accuse each other) the official policy here is nowadays that whoever called the police gets to stay in the common residence and the other party has to move out until it is settled. But that a women had it more difficult to find a hotel or such is a really strange idea. At least outside of immigrant minorities still following very patriarchal family traditions.
Still there are more women shelters. But i don't actually have problems with that. Women shelters exist longer already, domestic violence against women has been longer in public awareness than domestic violence against men and men leaving/getting thrown out don't look for shelters as often because of the greater social stigma. So i don't see an equality issue here. Its a logical consequence of demand and history of acceptence. When domestic violence against men is seen the same way domestic violence against women is seen, shelter parity will come anyway. Or we get mixed shelters.
The (domestic abuse) shelters here are normal houses that don't look like prisons and are not even remotely that overcrowded. Alternatives exist.
Can't really speak for the whole population as child rearing is a very private thing but all pairs with children i know try to actively suppress gender bias when interacting with their children. But as advertisement is still gendered a lot because that makes children want to have toys they think are normal for a group they belong to, i still see a lot of girls with pink stuff and ponies. But adults don't bat an eye when a girl plays with a toy excavator (which is btw. a big hit for boys and girls below the age of 3)
What is approprite to talk about under which circumstances doesn't translate well over language and culture barriers. (That is even true for to some extend for what counts as feminin/masculin) But while i don't really know what half those slurs really mean (no, i won't google them now) i have never heard people called names for that.
Especcially the sports related stuff always puzzles me. Are athletes some sort of idols in your country ? Treating someone special because of sports would not fly here at all under any circumstance. And the last controversy if women should be allowed in a certain sport was... well, actually i can't remember a single one in my lifetime.
Satinavian said:
Yes, it is actually quite common here in the US for women to have money withheld from them. Especially in the bible belt where women are still seen as sub servant to men and must obey them even if they are beaten. My sister had a pastor here actually tell her that she could not leave her husband and must obey him after he even beat her, broke her phone so she could not call for help and held her at gun point all night to prevent her from leaving when she went to church marriage counseling at the request of her mother in law. The Christian extremists in the US have MANY issues that are devastating to women, thus why they push so hard against feminism. Religion is used as means to control women, even in the US.
White families, not just minorities in the US follow very patriarchal models of family, especially in states like Texas where it is still common for men to not allow their wives to work, or women have been raised to believe that a woman's place is in the home.
It would not be possible for there to be mixed shelters here as it would put the high risk women in too much danger. Many of these women here have active hits out on their lives. You may not be thinking of the same type of shelter or of the same risk level as the ones I am discussing. The shelter here has to have armed police at all times or these women and children could all be killed. There are lower level shelters in other areas, however they are all massively overcrowded with women sleeping in the hall as well here. This is in the DFW metroplex and you may be lucky to have " room at the inn" but here, there is no such thing, and everyone is on waiting lists. It is not that violence against women " has been accepted longer" that is the issue, it is the actual severity of it and the numbers. If you are not beaten enough to be in the hospital, you often do not have access to a shelter that offers actual protection here. The reality is the level of injury to the men and the number of them looking for actual shelters are no where near comparable. Due to how few men are actually trying to get help due to serious abuse, it is more affordable to put them up individually in motels than to build a shelter just for them. Many areas do not have any men at all call in looking for shelter, that cannot be said for women. Where is it that the shelters are not overcrowded? I want to know exactly what shelters are not over crowded and I would like to give them a call, because I was not aware there were any that were not at the moment in most of the United States, Shelters here turn many away daily.
I am sure you read the article I linked about for the boy who was killed for playing with dolls, and YES, girls are still ridiculed by both boys and girls for doing " boy things" and openly called a " dike" and "tomboy" for doing so. Yes, there are efforts to change this, but it hasn't changed yet here. Some Christian girls here are still forbidden from wearing shorts or pants and have to wear dresses or skirts due to how religious their parents are. Not only are people called names for that here, they are attacked and even killed as I showed you in the links above. The "names" are derogatory slurrs to call them homosexual if they like things of the opposite gender.
Yes, Athletes are idols in the US, they are paid millions of dollars and looked up to by everyone in the community. They can get away with whatever they want and the community will defend them in force because they can do no wrong. "Jock culture" here is toxic and allows for them to be placed above the law and protected by the community. Sadly, The belief that girls should not be playing many sports here is still very strong. The few that do play " male sports" such as American football Still are often ridiculed as well and have petitions to prevent them from playing as they get older. It is sad, that is why we need these things changed. Much of the US is still very much "backwards."
Justice is fairness.Zenja said:
https://www.scu.edu/ethics/ethics-resources/ethical-decision-making/justice-and-fairness/
I see it as being quite unethical to not have both fairness and equality both considered when trying to make an equal society, or it is not actually equal, ethical or just. We must consider both if we want to actually improve it. It is not about about settling for what it is easy, it is about solving the problem long term and doing it right.
Pretty sure that would be outright illegal here, even with pairs following the classical earner-housewife role distribution.Lil devils x said:
Yes. I can not see a single Christian denomination active in Germany doing such a thing. All the big ones shed those ideas many decades/a century ago and even the small ones could not do that anymore. But yes, US-American non catholic, evangelical Christians have some really bad reputation in most of Europe.
Yes, our shelters are very different. They don't have police present at all but usually are not far away from a police station and tend to have one person present always who could call police. If anyones life is threatened as much that he/she needs that kind of protection you are describing, we use regular police protection, not shelters. But violence is far rarer in our society anyway and regular domestic violence shelters are enough in by far most cases.
The only athletes here that get paid a lot of money are soccer stars. But even those are not really looked up to and the community won't defend them when they get cought doing something wrong. As for sports and women, that is a complex topic with goes into politics (because nazi fitness cult and later the obsession with sport medals in the communist part of the country) but that women do as much sport as men and that nearly all sports are done by both is what the society expects. As a result, most sports are not even associated with a gender anymore. There are still often different leagues and some of them of very different size (especcially soccer, again), but argueing that women should not do a particular sport would be seen as very strange.
The only groups that occasionally say something like that are extremist muslims (salasists and wahabists) in minority communities. Which then leads to right-wingers of all people to perceive and defend "every sport for everyone" as important part of our culture that has to be adopted by all newcomers. But even this stuff happens really rarely as most muslims don't like to be perceived as utterly backward.
Explain to me how on earth being called "different" is now putting down an entire gender? Different does not imply worth or merit in any direction. It merely implies being different, standing out, catching your attention for one reason or another. What is different for one person is plain and uninteresting to another and so on. Hitler and Anders Breivik can be called "different than most men", is that putting down the entire male population of the earth? Or have I completely lost the plot on what words in the english language mean anymore?erttheking said:
As for pride, I'm in the George Carlin camp:
TL;DW: pride should be reserved for things you have accomplished yourself, made an effort for, and had a choice over. Not something that happens by accident of birth or other random circumistances. I'm proud that I can play the piano a bit, that I can paint Warhammer figures adequately, and that I got promoted to lance-corporal in the military. I don't take pride in being a man, being 6 ft tall or having three nipples, because I had no choice over those things and had to put no effort whatsoever to accomplish them. Ergo, taking pride in one's gender, race, nationality etc. first and foremost implies a lack of personal accomplishments or merit in which to take pride to me.
Excepting, of course, in the context of being different from the rest being a compliment. Such as the context being discussed.bartholen said:
Oh certainly, but it's not as though manspreading was an important or prevalent issue amongst feminists. I'm certain that many feminists argued against it, in simplistic ways, but then there's probably some convinced that the space lizards are behind it.bastardofmelbourne said:
(I don't buy the testicles thing either, as an aside).
