So, I'm making a game.

[TheRookie8]

Is it a good idea?

Depends on how well it gels with the themes and tone of the game. In Game of Thrones, killing off main characters left right and centre works extremely well, because the whole point of the books/shows is to brutally deconstruct the fantasy genre. Notice that Sansa really believes in all the handsome prince and honourable knight stuff, and she's presented as extremely naive... and the whole shock ending of the first book? Yeah, that's to hammer home the idea that nobility and honour are absolutely no shield against crafty buggers with no morals.

Which is where the morally grey characters usually step in to redeem the story from becoming this bleak tale of how the world is, at its core, totally rotten. These character possess shreds of decency, but also carry their own darkness...usually a remnant of past atrocities.

This is duality, I feel: Evil will feed upon the good to sustain itself, and good inevitably draws strength from past evils to bolster its own morale. The characters that strike the balance can then cut both ways.

 

[Twilight_guy]

You can do that, though its jarring. You would have to have a good story to support it and plan it out, you can't just gank your hero for no good reason and then skip merrily along as if nothing happened.

I also am not really comfortable with making a story from a story stand point, so I'd advise considering issues like genera and mechanics before you go into grand story work.

 

[ScrabbitRabbit]

Spoilers for a Wadjet Eye game here. I can't mention which because the nature of this topic makes it a spoiler, but if you're intending to play one of their games, I wouldn't read this post. I will say that it isn't Blackwell or Gemini Rue, though.

Spoiler

In Resonance, the vast majority of the plot is centred on a woman named Anna. She's the only one that can access her Uncle's secret research (the plot's main Macguffin). Throughout the story, you've gotten these weird, symbolism filled flashbacks/hallucinations dealing with Anna's childhood issues relating to her abusive father and her mysterious, but much more fatherly, uncle. To cut a long story short, when you get to the research, a video message from her uncle plays. This triggers a repressed memory of her "uncle" killing her "father" saying "get your hands off of my daughter." Big plot twist at this point in the game.

The game constantly raises the question as to whether or not the research should be destroyed, as it could be used to create an incredibly dangerous weapon. One of the other characters, a geeky scientist named Ed whom Anna has a *lot* of romantic tension with, spends a lot of the game talking about how this technology could benefit mankind and that it would be irrational to destroy it "just in case."

Now, when you reach the lab, only Anna can get into the room where the computer that houses the research is (I think there was a DNA test, I can't remember right now). The other characters are locked behind a barred door and can only look on as Anna tries to decide whether or not to destroy the research. At this point you are presented with a choice, destroy the research or extract it? Except it doesn't matter because Ed, who can't see what you decide to do, will shoot Anna in the back of the head regardless of what you choose. It was pretty surprising. The main character dies and her love interest turns out to be the bad guy at the start of the final act. The only issue is, she died the moment her character arc finished making all that development pretty pointless in the long run. Still an extremely surprising twist.

 

[saintdane05]

I know that Extra Creditz isn't well liked, but here is a tip from them.
Do not ever, EVER work out the full story first. Otherwise, you will either be forced to make a very boring game or a very choppy story.
My tip: Start with the world first. That way, you can work out a setting and work on sensible combat without having to worry about the mood of the characters not matching the game. Example: Metal Gear Solid 4. Remember all the cutscenes? That's cause the director did not wnat any of the story cut out. Maybe you can work on story first, when you already have a complete game and want to make a sequel.

Link to episode:
<youtube=-q5-iAnsxxw>

 

[LiquidGrape]

This is sounding dangerously much like "edgy".

 

[chikusho]

If all you are going for is offing cliched characters, why should we care that they die?
Do you have a purpose of killing them other than that you like to see heroes lose?

A game that did this, only way too late in the story:

Spoiler

Red Dead Redemption. I wish that there would've been at least a hand full of missions as Jack after the final mission. Where the just cause instilled in him from the death of his father motivated even more bloody revenge and violent rebelling.

Point is, you need to be effective. If everyone just dies haphazardly, death has no meaning.

 

[Kopikatsu]

If all you are going for is offing cliched characters, why should we care that they die?
Do you have a purpose of killing them other than that you like to see heroes lose?

I'm not sure which part you're referring to. Are you talking about the Prologue party? In which case, it's to set the tone. They're not meant to be around long or accomplish anything of note.

If you mean Mira's party, then...well, it's impossible to not make a character that's cliche in some aspects (If you can think of it, it's been done. I mean, look at Drakengard's party. Mute serial murderer, pedophile, elf who eats the flesh of children, and a boy who is eternally eight years old. Yeah, it works out about as well as you'd expect. Especially since in one ending, you end up sacrificing the boy.), but they're meant to actually do things.

 

[SweetShark]

Ok, you know what? I will tell a scene of the manga I remember:
*......snip*

Mate... I didn't have to read half of that to know that you didn't see a manga so much as you saw a torture porno...
Now I implore you to never inflict anyone with these thoughts ever again.

Nah, this is only a small example. Believe me, I had saw far worse than that.........
Of course because of my curiosity, I always end up crawling to my one of my corners of my room screamming in agony and pain for seeing these "things".......

Spoiler: MORE SICK THAN THE PREVIOUS EXAMPLE!!!

Ha! I will not tell ^^. I don't want to destroy your minds like I did with myself!!!

 

[chikusho]

Maybe I'm a bit tired and missed part of your layout.
In that case, sure, having a "tutorial" character that ends up killed works. Especially if it puts some meat on the bones of some or the rest of the cast and story.

Also, yes and no. Any character can be reduced to a stereotype the same way any individual can be reduced to a statistic or target group. If you go into creating characters by thinking "I can't avoid stereotypes so I better not fight it" you are doing it wrong. Unless you want to keep things basic and easy to follow with som other hooks to keep interest.

 

[Fluffythepoo]

Oh, I thought this was going to be about programming and stuffs. I'm a sad programming panda.

Character deaths only matter if your characters are meaningful and will stir enough of a reaction in your audience. They have to be more than just "I'm the guy who uses two swords", or "I'm the anti-hero that finds himself fighting the good fight". The more your characters feel living and breathing, the more attached to them people will be {like the Starks, although personally I hate the lot of the buggers aside from Arya and Ned}.

GRRM kills his characters because nobody is safe in Westeros {except for Jon fucking Snow; "FOR THE WATCH" my big, fat ass. Fuck you, Snow.}

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

also its okay to make stories without main protagonists or any real protagonists if youre targeting thirty and under demographic, might want to keep her alive if you want widen the appeal though

 

[Kopikatsu]

Maybe I'm a bit tired and missed part of your layout.
In that case, sure, having a "tutorial" character that ends up killed works. Especially if it puts some meat on the bones of some or the rest of the cast and story.

Also, yes and no. Any character can be reduced to a stereotype the same way any individual can be reduced to a statistic or target group. If you go into creating characters by thinking "I can't avoid stereotypes so I better not fight it" you are doing it wrong. Unless you want to keep things basic and easy to follow with som other hooks to keep interest.

I disagree. It simply means there is no effort going into making them super special snowflakes.

Anywho, I'm currently working on enemy groupings now because I'm trying to make the newbie cave, as it were. Gotta say, making enemy encounters is a lot harder than I thought it would be. And this is when I know exactly what stats/equipment the character has! I can't even imagine how much work it'll take to balance out mid and late game encounters. Yeesh.

 

[norashepard]

There was an example of this kind of thing, though not exactly.

Spoiler: Spoiler Maybe

Jade Empire sees the main character get murdered by their mentor right when you think you've beaten the game, and then the REAL third act starts. You probably wouldn't have that happen in your game, but if you need an example of a game that does it well (and REALLY expectantly), look there.

But my only other advice is don't make it so unfairly brutal from the start. Don't let the player get too attached to the PC, but don't make it obvious that they're just fodder. And just another idea, when they die, let the player choose who they control from then on. I think that would be cool.

 

[lacktheknack]

Anyway, I bring it up because I want to do something like that. How would you react if the main character suddenly dies 40-70% of the way through the game, and the focus then shifts to an ally or someone else entirely? If it's someone else entirely, then it's likely that most of the original party will have died in this event (But one of them will have become a traitor to save themselves and show up as an antagonist later).

Put short, I would be completely pissed off, would put the controller down, turn the game off, and never turn it on again.

And then I would post a bad review of it on Metacritic.

Nobody expects the main character to die, because they never do. And I hate that. They will always succeed, no matter what. Whatever odds are stacked against them, they will overcome it. It doesn't matter if it takes five continues, twenty continues, or whatever else.

The fact that people put so much time, interest, and effort into the main character is exactly why they must die. To show the player that truly, nothing is sacred and anything goes.

And that's exactly why they SHOULDN'T die. I've put some real effort into getting as far as I have, and to have it suddenly jerked out of my hands and left to spin off out of control while I faff around with some other character with their own agenda is intolerable.

And "anything goes" is a dangerous wish if I've ever heard one. "Anything goes" can be played in the "Dwarf Fortress" style, where you're told that everything goes and that you're going to die hilariously, THEN giving you the reins. That's great, actually. Then you can point and laugh when your fortress is suddenly destroyed by an outbreak of vicious cat zombies. In a story-driven context, however, suddenly informing me near the end that "anything goes" translates to "I am willing to piss on everything you've done, rip up everything you've attached to, and you have no real control of what's happening". It's manipulative and irritating.

I have no problems with a well written "hero dies at the end" sequence, because that's the end of the game. I generally hate these endings, but they're not all bad. However, if you're going to continue to rub my face in it, then you've lost yourself a player.

 

[GeneralFungi]

In the kind of game you've mentioned, it would be important for all of the characters to be somewhat likable. It would be hard to do. If I've grown attached to a character, and then they die, if it's for the sake of a good story I can accept it. But not if I have to play as a significantly less likable character. It would feel like a huge downgrade.

 

[BeerTent]

If you really hate hero characters, make the game immensely difficult. That'll teach the bastard!

EDIT: Durrrr~ Incredibly stupid/useless post removed.

 

[Voulan]

I really enjoyed the ending to The Longest Journey because the big quest you set upon turns out not to be yours, but actually someone else's. It's not a failure per se, but it turn around the idea of being the hero that saves the day. Instead, you're watching someone else do it, and you don't really accomplish anything. It's like being told you're the subject of an all-important prophecy, only to be told later that, actually, they'd made a mistake, it's this other person here.

So certainly from a narrative perspective it makes an interesting concept. Psychologically it's a very new concept in a video game, where typically you do end up saving the day with the main hero. And we all need something new, so absolutely go for it. Perhaps you could try another way besides death?

 

[Kopikatsu]

If you really hate hero characters, make the game immensely difficult. That'll teach the bastard!

On a more serious note. This seems like a really risky move. As a player myself I probably wouldn't care too much about this new character unless they had a clear objective of completing what the hero couldn't achieve, or a vested interest in knocking off the double-agent. If done right, it could be an excellent twist. Also, a Valve-style cutscene would probably work excellently here. Keep the player occupied. When the player gets injured and knocked down, have the hero drag them off down a hall, shooting at bad guys. When the two thinks they're safe, have the player witness the scene. Maybe the player is powerless to fight back, as they're trying to get their sidearm... Out of ammo... When the bag bad guy comes to betray them, it may be needed that the player goes ahead, Hears a "sorry" and is promptly killed.

This is merely a suggestion. I'm kind of assuming this is a shooter, as it sort of sounds like one.

...Etrian Odyssey-style sounds like a shooter?

People keep making weird assumptions like that, so...I'm going to make a quick recording of what I have right now. For an example.

 

[BeerTent]

If you really hate hero characters, make the game immensely difficult. That'll teach the bastard!

On a more serious note. This seems like a really risky move. As a player myself I probably wouldn't care too much about this new character unless they had a clear objective of completing what the hero couldn't achieve, or a vested interest in knocking off the double-agent. If done right, it could be an excellent twist. Also, a Valve-style cutscene would probably work excellently here. Keep the player occupied. When the player gets injured and knocked down, have the hero drag them off down a hall, shooting at bad guys. When the two thinks they're safe, have the player witness the scene. Maybe the player is powerless to fight back, as they're trying to get their sidearm... Out of ammo... When the bag bad guy comes to betray them, it may be needed that the player goes ahead, Hears a "sorry" and is promptly killed.

This is merely a suggestion. I'm kind of assuming this is a shooter, as it sort of sounds like one.

...Etrian Odyssey-style sounds like a shooter?

People keep making weird assumptions like that, so...I'm going to make a quick recording of what I have right now. For an example.

Those words simply did not register when I read that. I am so sorry. It's my understanding now that I actually look at it, it was a little more like the original final fantasy? Choose your characters, form a party, and then go at an adventure? I'm sure that the characters are a bit more static in where you're going.

Legent of Dragoon, in this case, might provide a much better example of where a good direction to go in that. One character dies in that game, but is replaced by a very similar character who is actually much notably (to someone too young to play RE2) more powerful. Perhaps this new character could be a similar copy of the dead character, but again, packin' more skills and abilities to use, so that players won't feel they had lost something that had been developing.

I had never actually played Etrian Odyssey, so... Maybe I should pick up a few videos.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Anyway, here's that video I promised.
It took about two hours to make everything in that video. Which is sad. Or is it sad? I have no idea. There's still a lot of work to be done there, too. Gotta rebalance everything because the fuckin' fairy is OP and the girl's attack is too strong (Although she chooses not to attack most of the time, which is good because her basic attack one shots Soldier!Varkus). Anyway, gotta fix/add animations, throw in a transition/thunder soundbite for the transformation, fix some scripting that evidently doesn't work, etc...

Another thing. Camstudio doesn't record audio. So...sorry about that. Play your own music while watching, I guess.

Edit: Well, Youtube suggested a song for me to replace the non-existent audio with, so...I did that.

Also, the reason it describes Varkus as female in his description is because the Demon that possess him is female. That description is meant for when his class is Demon Lord, not Soldier. As you won't ever control Soldier!Varkus outside of cutscene/forced fights, I don't feel it's super important to fix it.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Yeaaaah, double post/bump. Whatevs.

Anyway, I have a question for the community. Would you rather have most of the dialogue be told mid-battle as it is in the video (I make the flags very specific on purpose, so it's possible to miss conversations and such if you don't fulfill certain conditions. For example, for Mira's story, if you let her health fall below 30% during the second boss fight with no surviving teammates, she has a short conversation with the boss and gets a small stat boost/health restore.)- Eh. I went too far without payoff, so I'll start over.

Would you rather dialogue be told mid-battle using the method I described above, or primarily given through cutscene (In which case, everyone gets mostly the same dialogue and scenes.)

I'm also thinking of maybe borrowing a mechanic from FFX and add a 'talk' command in some fights, which can give stat boosts to allies, debuffs to enemies, etc depending on the situation.

Edit: To clarify, most boss fights won't have much dialogue either way. Like...in the video example, I went through the fight to ensure the most dialogue would trigger.