So, I'm writing a book, and I can't decide whether or not to include this idea...

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worldruler8

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hm, as a writer (who needs to do more writing to even consider calling himself that), I can say that all 3 of the POV's are an interesting premise. As for the premise itself, it seems a little, well, repetative. Than again, I'm "writing" a story myself, and some of the plot points are certainly not original. I guess having enough originality, something I'm working on, will make your story stand out. I hope the best for you, as it seems like your premise has some potential.
 

BNguyen

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Jakub324 said:
The year is 2457. Humanity lives on dozens of worlds, and almost everything is controlled by the state. I say "almost" because a few colonies broke away. One such colony is Sola, an inhospitable ice-ball of 800,000 inhabitants. The government send an army to obliterate Sola. Within in two days, the population has been reduced to less than 2,000 and what little of it remains hides in shadow, praying for a miracle. However, it is quickly becoming clear that the invaders aren't the most dangerous thing on the planet, and that the new threat might also be Sola's salvation...
You know, this sounds exactly like Lost Planet: Extreme Condition, a bit of plagiarism much?
 

Mister K

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If you really think that this particular idea should be included, then do it, but think through it so that it would end up good.
 

twistedmic

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Jakub324 said:
I can't decide whether or not to tell part of the story from the perspective of an enemy. He could be:
Part of the officer cadre, highly educated, and under pressure to eliminate last vestiges of local resistance. They have three months to confirm the deaths of the last locals, or they will face a firing squad.
I'd say mostly focus on the main Solat and the Officer. It would be a very good way to humanize the 'enemy' fleet.

Part of the criminal company, so he'd be one of many convicts. Between them, they have committed every crime under the sun, and now they have guns and have been set loose on the locals. Characters witness them torture and then execute captured civilians. Almost all of them choose to flood their systems with steroids and combat drugs, which make them even more psychotic and merciless.
Ordinary soldier. Very indoctrinated, basic education only, most are conscripts. They make up bulk of the invasion/occupation force.
I suggest that you use their POV sparingly if you decide to use it at all. And possibly write them as less as humans and more as primal, savage animals (due to the heavy drug use).
 

Berethond

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Jakub324 said:
BonsaiK said:
Plot makes no sense. How did Sola get 800,000 inhabitants if it's "inhospitable"? Why would the "state" want to control an "inhospitable" planet? Also why are they killing the locals? With only 2000 people left, their war is basically won anyway so why are they even still there? And now a criminal company are getting involved, to exploit only 2000 people? To what end? Why would they not go somewhere more populous where there's more of an economy to sink their criminal teeth into?

You should tell the story from whatever perspective you want, multiple ones is also fine. Just make sure it's a story that actually adds up and makes coherent sense. You don't want to make another Battlefield Earth.
In order:
The planet's settlers (kicked off Earth for their part in a rebellion) survived through the generosity of another planet. Though their ally's aid was against the law, the government did little about it because it was the military heart of their empire and the entire planet took pity on the Solats, so they couldn't stop the help flowing without sparking a rebellion that might just see them topple from the throne.
The locals are being killed because the interplanetary authorities got fed up with the possibility of the Solats stirring another rebellion up, and as long as they were alive, the risk was there.
They're still there because their orders are simple: "Kill everyone. If just one Solat survives, the risk does."
The State doesn't want to control the planet, they just want every one of it's inhabitants dead so they no longer have to keep looking over their shoulders.
The criminal company is a division of the military, officially designated the "34th Penal company". They are not a corporate body, they just somewhat tame psychopaths.
Then why use ground forces at all? If it's already 'inhospitable' why not just nuke that shit from orbit and be done with it? Actually, that could be a good introduction, then the evil statists go take care of that other, prettier, better-funded world that helped the rebels out.
 

ImperialSunlight

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If it were told in 3rd person, I'd say that doing so would be an excellent way to humanize the enemy but it may be awkward due to the POV of the rest of the story. It may work, however, if done carefully. Perhaps style it as a kind of letter from the soldier to a loved one or something similar, describing their story.

I think the officer is the most compelling of the characters as his higher level of education, power over the other soldiers and helplessness against the firing squad that is threatening him to do the dirty deed seems like the more interesting story in my opinion.
 

Lilani

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Jakub324 said:
The year is 2457. Humanity lives on dozens of worlds, and almost everything is controlled by the state. I say "almost" because a few colonies broke away. One such colony is Sola, an inhospitable ice-ball of 800,000 inhabitants. The government send an army to obliterate Sola. Within in two days, the population has been reduced to less than 2,000 and what little of it remains hides in shadow, praying for a miracle. However, it is quickly becoming clear that the invaders aren't the most dangerous thing on the planet, and that the new threat might also be Sola's salvation...

I can't decide whether or not to tell part of the story from the perspective of an enemy. He could be:
Part of the officer cadre, highly educated, and under pressure to eliminate last vestiges of local resistance. They have three months to confirm the deaths of the last locals, or they will face a firing squad.
Part of the criminal company, so he'd be one of many convicts. Between them, they have committed every crime under the sun, and now they have guns and have been set loose on the locals. Characters witness them torture and then execute captured civilians. Almost all of them choose to flood their systems with steroids and combat drugs, which make them even more psychotic and merciless.
Ordinary soldier. Very indoctrinated, basic education only, most are conscripts. They make up bulk of the invasion/occupation force.

Do you think I should include this kind thing? It might help make the enemy seem less two-dimensional, but it's already seen through the eyes of both the protagonist and, on occasion the deuteragonist, and I heard a lot of people find POV switching annoying.
I think you need to decide how you want to tell the story and how best you can convey what you want. If you aren't sure what character to tell the story from, that may mean you are unsure as to whether or not first person is right for your story. These are the different points of view you can write in:

First Person: As you know, from the eyes of one person.

Pros: Close and intimate with their exact thoughts, and you can play with the idea of bias and the unreliable narrator. Great opportunities for dramatic irony.

Cons: You are very limited, here. You can ONLY see things through their perspective, so anything they do not or have not experienced in the past cannot be included. Anything they don't know of or experience, the reader won't about.

Third Person Limited: Third person perspective, but mainly following one character.

Pros: You can have a variable level of intimacy with the character. You can stay far, or get very close--even to the point where you are talking as though you are in the head and thoughts of the character, but simply not using quotations or exactly saying "he thought." You can also point out things that the character may not be aware of, or articulate things they don't necessarily comprehend themselves. I recommend reading The Story of an Hour [http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/webtexts/hour/] for a good example of this.

Cons: In third person limited, it is very easy and tempting to just hop over into another character's head for a bit. But you can't--that ruins the point of being limited. Being limited is the middle ground between third person omniscient and first person--you've got the level of intimacy with one character like first person, but the opportunity to go outside their head and elaborate on other things going on like omniscient. Speaking of which:

Third Person Omniscient: Third person point of view, but not limited to one character. In this case, the narrator knows EVERYTHING about EVERYONE. There is no head they can't enter.

Pros: In omniscient, you can keep track of many characters in different places and get into all of their heads. Think about something like the Lord of the Rings--you can jump between groups of characters in different places at any time. You COULD also use it for a smaller cast, but again be careful as to how much you give away. Try reading Rope [http://members.multimania.co.uk/shortstories/porterrope.html] to see what I mean.

Cons: You will want to consider how close you want to get to each character, because if you get too much into EVERYBODY'S heads it can take away from the mystery and tension between the characters and their relationships. Also, it can insult the reader because you could end up giving more away than necessary.

Now there is also second person, but you can look that up yourself. For stories, these are the main ones you'll consider. So the question you need to ask first is this: How do you want to tell the story? Will you want or need to do a summary to introduce the reader to some aspects of the world, or can you accomplish that successfully in the first person? Jumping between points of view should only happen at critical moments for emphasis--if you do it at all. If you want to jump between people's heads, you might want to consider a well executed third person omniscient. You can still get very close to their thoughts, as you can see in that story Rope, but without the inconsistency and whiplash of switching from first person to first person.

So I guess my point is don't commit yourself to first person just yet if you don't even know what character you might be telling the story from. Experienced writers will tell you to use first person sparingly, and only if you are ABSOLUTELY certain that is the BEST way to get your story across to the reader. Remember those little tricks you can pull with each perspective--use them to your advantage. And good luck!
 

Cpu46

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Do it. Or at least try it.

Kudos to you if you make him/her/it a three dimensional sympathetic character who has legitimate reasons to be on the side he/she/it is on and doesn't defect to the 'good' side in the end. Even more kudos if you make a majority of the characters on the opposing side sympathetic characters. Only a few series do this and even fewer actually do it well.

Perhaps even make one sympathetic point of view character kill another one to cause emotion within the reader far greater than if faceless goon #239 killed the character. Or shortly after the POV characters death by the actions of faceless goon #239 make him/her/it a new sympathetic point of view character, causing the readers who previously hated #239 to grow attached to him/her/it.

If you do it well then you can foster immense emotional connections between the readers and the characters that are far stronger then most of the popular book series are able to.
 

Nerdstar

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Jakub324 said:
id go from the penal legion perspective it'd be interesting to see how a battle hardened criminal forced into a virtual death sentence would view this situation and a good place to take some inspiration would be the warhammer 40K book series The Last Chancers by Gavin Thorpe. it would be more challenging to write a story about them other than "see penal legion rape,murder and burn defenseless civilians" but ultimately i think it would make a better story than a officer cadre wrestling with mortality(they knew what they were getting into when the orders were "kill everyone") instead try focusing on how the penal unit tries to survive there expice(while taking heavy casualties of course)on the world to fight another day/find a way to escape all the while trying to murder each other and there CO.
 

Supertegwyn

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Dr. McD said:
Berethond said:
Then why use ground forces at all? If it's already 'inhospitable' why not just nuke that shit from orbit and be done with it? Actually, that could be a good introduction, then the evil statists go take care of that other, prettier, better-funded world that helped the rebels out.
You know, I once tried writing a novel (I gave up though). It was called Apocalypse Squad, it took place in a post apocalyptic fantasy version of Communist Russia.

Anyway, the protagonists, the titular squad, was named so because it's purpose was to capture an old unused IBCM so the nation they worked for (called the Democratic Socialist Republic, DSR for short) would have something to keep other countries from invading.

Long story short, one of the main antagonists simply didn't trust the DSR. The country wasn't communist and in fact, had more freedom then most countries (use and sale of drugs is treated the same as alcohol, for example). But the fact was, they weren't sure they could trust them, the DSR had yet to have an election, and the country's treatment of prisoners was absolutely horrifying (even though for something like theft you'd just be getting a lot of community service), and the country's leader did make his intention to take the rest of the territory back from other regimes (which were mostly communist and run by surviving former members of the soviet government) absolutely clear.

Anyway, this main antagonistic group never technically even invaded the DSR, they were simply trying to get the nuke before the protagonists or anyone else did.

Sorry if I rambled on, but the point is that I agree and prefer antagonists who make sense and are more pragmatic, or in other words "It doesn't matter how many times you tell the reader that your villain is the most brilliant mad scientist who ever created a world-destroying megaweapon--if your villain acts stupidly, then he's stupid. I recently read a novel where the heroine "played on the villain's ego" by "challenging him" to hunt her in the woods. When the villain accepted the challenge I wrote both of them off as idiots.".
Your story sounds intriguing. I would be interested in reading/and or working on it. Anyway you can arrange that?

OT: I personally like the Officer myself. The infantry soldier also works, you could write it like Starship Troopers, having the main characters never 100% sure of the political motivations of the heads up top.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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My advice would be to write it, and see how it turns out. Then remove all of the pieces of the story that didn't work well. Writes some more, check that stuff, and so on.

As for perspective switching, a good way to handle that is the way it's handled in The Saga of Seven Suns. Writing in third person, but swapping focus, instead of perspective. So when you're focusing on one character, write extra things about what they're thinking, and less about the thoughts of the people they're interacting with.
 

LordFisheh

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I like the idea of the officer viewpoint. Better, go with both; why not have the psychotic penal battalions (and psychotic regular soldiers) as a force that your character has to struggle to control. He has the doubts about the invasion, its methods and its soldiers but on the other hand is the impending pressure of a firing squad and an army of psychopaths he can barely restrain as it is.
 

KarlMonster

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For a little research, go borrow Faulkner's "As I Lay Dying" from a library. Faulkner bounces around between the POVs of 4 siblings, plus at least one other character. Faulkner has pretty good reasons for doing this; using surrounding characters as foils for a central character, who is dead. I can't say that I enjoyed the book much, but its an example of POV switching done right.

Now, so far as your book goes. Write everything that you care to write. Then when you feel that you're done, you can remove characters if they seem unnecessary. Writing the story is building the stone block. Editing the story is finding the statue inside the stone block.
 

Jakub324

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Hal10k said:
Jakub324 said:
The locals are being killed because the interplanetary authorities got fed up with the possibility of the Solats stirring another rebellion up, and as long as they were alive, the risk was there.
They're still there because their orders are simple: "Kill everyone. If just one Solat survives, the risk does."
The State doesn't want to control the planet, they just want every one of it's inhabitants dead so they no longer have to keep looking over their shoulders.
Besides, you'd think that a smart organization would realize that total genocide would inspire a bigger rebellion than a few people they could easily out-propoganda.

Also, why would you need an army to eradicate that planet's population in the first place? Just chuck a good-sized asteroid at a planet and your job is already done.
In order:
They can easily bring about a propoganda blackout, and anyone they can no longer feed lies has already be rebelled. This didn't stop them because they're paranoid.
They can't just level the place from orbit because , for reasons unknown to the Solats, they want the city in tact. It is, however, speculated to be that the world leader, and the acting overrall commander of the Solat Military know a lot about the workings of their post-revolution allies.
 

Astoria

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Just try it. If it doesn't work you can always change it. It might also give you new ideas to work with.
 

Jakub324

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Berethond said:
Jakub324 said:
BonsaiK said:
Plot makes no sense. How did Sola get 800,000 inhabitants if it's "inhospitable"? Why would the "state" want to control an "inhospitable" planet? Also why are they killing the locals? With only 2000 people left, their war is basically won anyway so why are they even still there? And now a criminal company are getting involved, to exploit only 2000 people? To what end? Why would they not go somewhere more populous where there's more of an economy to sink their criminal teeth into?

You should tell the story from whatever perspective you want, multiple ones is also fine. Just make sure it's a story that actually adds up and makes coherent sense. You don't want to make another Battlefield Earth.
In order:
The planet's settlers (kicked off Earth for their part in a rebellion) survived through the generosity of another planet. Though their ally's aid was against the law, the government did little about it because it was the military heart of their empire and the entire planet took pity on the Solats, so they couldn't stop the help flowing without sparking a rebellion that might just see them topple from the throne.
The locals are being killed because the interplanetary authorities got fed up with the possibility of the Solats stirring another rebellion up, and as long as they were alive, the risk was there.
They're still there because their orders are simple: "Kill everyone. If just one Solat survives, the risk does."
The State doesn't want to control the planet, they just want every one of it's inhabitants dead so they no longer have to keep looking over their shoulders.
The criminal company is a division of the military, officially designated the "34th Penal company". They are not a corporate body, they just somewhat tame psychopaths.
Then why use ground forces at all? If it's already 'inhospitable' why not just nuke that shit from orbit and be done with it? Actually, that could be a good introduction, then the evil statists go take care of that other, prettier, better-funded world that helped the rebels out.
Unfortunately for them, they want the world leader (who they haven't confirmed the death of) and, if possible, the acting commander of the Solat Military, because they might know something worth something of their allies.
 

Jakub324

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BNguyen said:
Jakub324 said:
The year is 2457. Humanity lives on dozens of worlds, and almost everything is controlled by the state. I say "almost" because a few colonies broke away. One such colony is Sola, an inhospitable ice-ball of 800,000 inhabitants. The government send an army to obliterate Sola. Within in two days, the population has been reduced to less than 2,000 and what little of it remains hides in shadow, praying for a miracle. However, it is quickly becoming clear that the invaders aren't the most dangerous thing on the planet, and that the new threat might also be Sola's salvation...
You know, this sounds exactly like Lost Planet: Extreme Condition, a bit of plagiarism much?
I have honestly never heard of that, and you can check my gamerscore if you don't believe me.
EDIT: I just looked it up, and as far as I can tell, the only thing common to both is the polar climate. Everything else is completely dog-buggeringly different.
 
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Jakub324 said:
The year is 2457. Humanity lives on dozens of worlds, and almost everything is controlled by the state. I say "almost" because a few colonies broke away. One such colony is Sola, an inhospitable ice-ball of 800,000 inhabitants. The government send an army to obliterate Sola. Within in two days, the population has been reduced to less than 2,000 and what little of it remains hides in shadow, praying for a miracle. However, it is quickly becoming clear that the invaders aren't the most dangerous thing on the planet, and that the new threat might also be Sola's salvation...

I can't decide whether or not to tell part of the story from the perspective of an enemy. He could be:
Part of the officer cadre, highly educated, and under pressure to eliminate last vestiges of local resistance. They have three months to confirm the deaths of the last locals, or they will face a firing squad.
Part of the criminal company, so he'd be one of many convicts. Between them, they have committed every crime under the sun, and now they have guns and have been set loose on the locals. Characters witness them torture and then execute captured civilians. Almost all of them choose to flood their systems with steroids and combat drugs, which make them even more psychotic and merciless.
Ordinary soldier. Very indoctrinated, basic education only, most are conscripts. They make up bulk of the invasion/occupation force.

Do you think I should include this kind thing? It might help make the enemy seem less two-dimensional, but it's already seen through the eyes of both the protagonist and, on occasion the deuteragonist, and I heard a lot of people find POV switching annoying.
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002)
Faramir: [from the Extended Edition] "The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he comes from, and if he really was evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home, and would he not rather have stayed there... in peace?..."

Ask whether you can find a way to convey the enemies humanity through the main character. Through the way the character ponders the 'enemy' and then show this through their eventual confrontation and interaction. POV switching can be annoying when done haphazardly, it is best left for omniscient third-person narration, and to those who are experts in their craft and are confident that they have not embarrassed themselves or compromised their work.

Maybe you could make it into a short story.
 

Jakub324

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TheJesus89 said:
Most definately.

IMO it would be the only interesting thing in the story. Sorry to say, but the premise is incredibly boring. Seriously, I almost fell asleep reading it.

sure, you've got a sci-fi setting, but how often have you heard "Evil something killing poor but nice something, only for the poor something to be saved by a third force". It's really, really, bland.
The "third force" is actually definitely not human, or indeed alive.